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Problems with table saw tripping circuit

by gtbuzz
posted 567 days ago


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83 replies

83 replies so far

View thedude50's profile (online now)

thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#51 posted 564 days ago

of coarse they are going to accept delivery. Grizzly could take a lesson from saw stop on several fronts but the surprising one is tha way Saw Stop Packages their saws for freight that box was bulletproof. and because of the way they pallet the box it has no risk of damage as long as they dont stack a second saw atop the first.

I am sorry you are having this trouble I doubt that the problem came from the damage but i could be wrong More than likely this part has a high failure rate.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Davesfunwoodworking's profile

Davesfunwoodworking

272 posts in 2478 days


#52 posted 564 days ago

Hey all I would like to add something here 1. what size wire is in your mail panel? what size is your main breaker? 100amp or 200amp. if you put a 20 amp breaker in did you tighten it really good? check for a direct short in your motor wires. also the motor may be wired wrong? But if it runs for a while then when you turn it off and start it again it trips the main breaker of 20amps. your motor is over amping and is causing the breaker to trip. also one more thing to look at is your saw pluged into a G.F.I. wall plug? I am a heating and air service tech. and deal with motor and breakers all day every day. I would also look at the start capacitor. The motor will start up when cold but run very hot then trips the breaker. let the saw run for a good few minutes then unplug it and see if it is running hot to the touch. if so check your cap. Good luck.

-- Davesfunwoodworking

View gtbuzz's profile

gtbuzz

346 posts in 1045 days


#53 posted 564 days ago

Yeah, actually my biggest qualm in all of this is that I’ve had to do a lot of testing on this motor, etc., that while not terribly difficult, wasn’t anything that I was familiar with either. It required doing a lot of research on my part to make sure I didn’t, I don’t know, electrocute myself. Not as big a deal, but I’m still a little irked that Grizzly didn’t send the cap overnight. Their suggestion for me if I needed a saw this weekend was that I go buy a new part locally. Um, no.

I took delivery of the saw because after opening it up, it appeared to be okay. Had it been visibly damaged (the saw), the UPS guy would have been going back with it. In the end though, I agree with thedude50 on this – I don’t believe it’s likely the damage during shipping caused this. It probably would have been safer in the end for me to have just refuse delivery, but unfortunatly it was new and shiny so I got distracted =)

We’ll see what Grizzly does to make me happy when all is said and done.

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#54 posted 564 days ago

very understandable . I was on pins and needles waiting for my new saw. I was very happy with the way that SawStop palleted the load. Clearly they do it right but i would have probably made the delivery guy stay to inspect had the box been damaged. and if the saw had a scratch or a dent I would have asked them for a big discount.

I am sorry Grizzly is not giving you the service they should. I am sure this will be reflected in your review of the saw.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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crashn

518 posts in 1069 days


#55 posted 562 days ago

Topo, its a square D 100 amp sub panel, being fed by a 60amp circuit from the house. Wiring I did myself using 14/3 for the 220 line. I have 5 machines plugged into that same 20amp circuit, but I can only use 1 at a time. The DC is on its own dedicated 220v 20 amp circuit, running a PSI 3.5hp motor with 15” impeller on a thien top hap design.

As I started thinking about when I had my saw wired for 110v on a 20amp circuit, 14/2 wire (before I wired in the 220 to the garage/shop), I DID occasionally have a trip when I first started the saw. Happened maybe half a dozen times. Always fired right back up after the initial circuit trip.

On 220, this has not happened even once.

I suspect the start up draw (on 110) was a tad too high, maybe more than the label would indicate. I do not have a clamp on amp meter, so I do not know what the actual draw is.

-- Crashn - the only thing I make more of than sawdust is mistakes

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1517 days


#56 posted 562 days ago

gtbuzz: ”...It probably would have been safer in the end for me to have just refuse delivery, but unfortunatly it was new and shiny so I got distracted…”

All for a bad cap?! Take a deep breathe and relax. If you blew a cap on this TS 18months down the road, you would have to be going through the same learning process, so be thankful for Grizzly’s Tech guidance.

Hey, in the mean time how about posting some images of your shop, your setup, and your electrical panel? We would all love the visual aids.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14613 posts in 2279 days


#57 posted 562 days ago

If the full load amps is really 16A at 110, it is certainly marginal starting and stopping on a 20 amp circuit. If it were a loaded motor such as a compressor, it wouldn’t work so well.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View wiwildcat's profile

wiwildcat

45 posts in 566 days


#58 posted 562 days ago

20 amp breaker would be the minimum size for 16 FLA motor. 14/2 seems to be undersigned for the 16 amp full load amps. I would have installed 12/2. The maximum breaker for a motor with 16 FLA is 40 amp.
I have a few motors at 1hp and 120 volt fed from 20 amp breakers and 12/2 conductors. No problems.

-- Wisconsin Wildcat

View gtbuzz's profile

gtbuzz

346 posts in 1045 days


#59 posted 561 days ago

So in the good news department, the Grizzly rep was probably just mistaken about the shipping method as they ended up shipping my new capacitor to me via UPS overnight, so kudos to them for that.

Bad news – exactly the same thing happens. First startup, panel breaker trips. Subsequent startups, runs fine. Called Grizzly back about it again and they said they’re not sure what it may be and will call me back within the next day or so. From the way the last guy was talking, it soudns lke they may try sending me a new motor, however if it comes to that, I think I may just ask for a whole new saw to be shipped – I’m getting pretty frustrated with troubleshooting.

Grizzly, as well as others, have said that this saw should run fine on 110 / 20 amp circuit, so right now I’m inclined to think that’s not the problem. If I end up having to switch it out to a 30 amp breaker I’ll probably just get a 220 installed with some tandems instead. I’d like to not have to do that at this point since that really wasn’t in the budget.

@HorizontalMike – “All that for a bad cap”? Yes and no. You kind of have to put this into perspective IMO. If this were 18 months down the road and my saw was out of warranty, I’d be thrilled at the level of support I’m getting. That’s not the case though – this is a brand new saw. Shouln’t have to do that much troubleshooting.

I really want to like this saw and get back to making sawdust, but it’s getting mighty difficult right now.

View thedude50's profile (online now)

thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#60 posted 561 days ago

Ok Take a deep breath and look at what has been said Topomax has been a electrician for many years he has told you that the odds are that there is nothing wrong with the saw and that 20 amps may not be big enough. I agreed with him and said for you to rate your wire and if its big enough to go get the 10 dollar breaker at 30 amps. I think that your safe with this Idea as you also know breakers wear and trip easier as they age and eventually fail. So if your breakers are OLD they may only be holding 16 amps or less and that wont cut the mustard. I recommend you go and get the 30 amp breaker and put the worries behind you and start enjoying the saw you purchased. I think as long as the wire is the right size for a 30 amp circuit you will be just fine. I have a book in the shop as to what size the wire needs to be for how many amps when i wired my shop I used wire for up to 50 amps it cost more and the breakers are only 20 amps on most of the circuits but I know I can add a big breaker should I need to Most people use wire over code so ods are your good to go but please check the wire to be safe. This is what I would do if I were in your shoes. I am truly sorry your not getting what you want so far but I do think this is the right solution.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View kdc68's profile (online now)

kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#61 posted 560 days ago

I am a new saw owner. I have the G0661. The specs are the same as your G0715P ( 2hp – 16 FLA amps at 110). Although it isn’t put together yet, the plan will be to rewire to 110. Before I made the purchase I called a few electricians about running the saw on a dedicated 20 amp breaker (wired 12/2 to a NEMA 5-20 outlet).

The electricians replies were this:
Most commonly available circuit breakers are rated to carry no more than 80% of their nominal rating continuously (3 hours or more) (NEC Art. 100). 80% of a 20 amp breaker is 16 amps. The saw is at right at the minimal rating for a 20 amp breaker. So I should be alright unless I bog the saw down, thus drawing more than 20 amps and tripping the breaker, or cut lumber on the saw continously for 3 hours at but not exceeding 16 amps, or have something else running on the same circuit.
FLA is 16 amp. Under normal use it may not reach that high, but could go over if oveloaded. No loads amps would be less than half that (saw running without a load)

Lets hope they are right

Keep us posted

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

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gtbuzz

346 posts in 1045 days


#62 posted 560 days ago

@kdc68, I belive you’re right, that is the same motor on that saw. Please do update and let me (everyone) know how your saw works on the 20 amp circuit.

Still waiting for Grizzly to call me back with suggestions (I called them today to follow up but they said it can take up to 48 hours to get a response). I think my next step may just be trying the 30 amp breaker if I can confirm there’s 10-2 in the walls. I’ve got a wire gage buried somewhere in the toolbox.

In the meantime for me though, I’m not gonna worry about this for a little while since I’m about to leave on vacation. I love to cut me some wood, but it’s hard to be thinking about a non-working saw when you’re enjoying a drink on a beach =)

View kdc68's profile (online now)

kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#63 posted 560 days ago

gtbuzz….Well I thought I might wait for you, but I am somewhat anxious to see it if my saw works. If you have Romex wire, I think it is color coded (ie 12/2 is yellow). If I’m right, found out the color of the sheathing, and that may tell you the size. 10/2 may be orange. Just take the cover off the outlet box and peak inside.

Have fun on vacation

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14613 posts in 2279 days


#64 posted 560 days ago

Yup, 14 is white, 12 = yellow & 10 = orange.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View wunderaa's profile

wunderaa

184 posts in 806 days


#65 posted 560 days ago

Kinda agree with thedude on this one. Just throw a 30A breaker in there and see if your problems repeat. If you want to go conservative, swap the 20A breaker for a new 20A and see if the behavior changes. For under $5, you can eliminate that possibility. My $0.02!

For a little background…when the switch is turned on in an induction-motor, the only thing that the current sees is a short circuit, meaning that there is nothing in the current path to resist current flow. For this reason, there is a “surge” of current flow, called a transient, which dies off quickly (under 0.1 seconds, typically) as the magnetic fields get set up inside of the windings and resist current flow through inductance. This transient can max out at several times the rated full load amps of the motor (capacitor-start motors, or soft-start circuits on larger motors help to decrease the transient, but in-rush current is nearly always higher than full load amps). What all of this nonsense means is that your breaker could be dropping out quicker than someone else’s who has the exact same saw, wiring, etc. If you momentarily swap the breaker for either a newer one or a larger capacity one, you can narrow down your issue. As the other commenters have warned, you should not leave a 30A breaker in the circuit without verifying that your existing wiring can handle the current.

View kdc68's profile (online now)

kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#66 posted 560 days ago

wunderaa – great info…maybe you can answer this … Isn’t the ampere interrupting capacity (AIC) of a circuit breaker much higher than the surge produced from the startup of a induction motor? More specificaly, a breaker thats rated for the induction motor (in this case a 20 amp breaker for a 2hp induction motor thats wired for 110volts 16FLA)

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

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wunderaa

184 posts in 806 days


#67 posted 560 days ago

kdc68 – you’re right that the breaking capacity of a breaker should be substantially higher than full load amps. I was just implying that over time, the breaking capacity of a breaker can lower due to age, heat exposure, repeated tripping, etc. To test, a simple swap of the breaker with a known good one is all that’s needed.

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#68 posted 560 days ago

I checked the NEC and it says you can use a 30 amp breaker on 12 gauge wire although they recomend10 gauge. I trust the NEC and would have no problem with using a 30 on 12 either as the amps your drawing at start up are only high for a moment and after the motor breaks in will likely drop to a lower level. It’s either do it or run some nice 220 wire and push the budget.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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TopamaxSurvivor

14613 posts in 2279 days


#69 posted 560 days ago

Lance, It is not legal to use a 15 or 20 amp u ground receptacle on a 30 amp protected breaker. I would have to be a 30 amp receptacle. Generally speaking, the over sizing of current protection is for permanently connected motors and equipment, not general purpose circuits.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1762 days


#70 posted 560 days ago

Have you tried running the saw on a different circuit? You just need an extension cord and plug it into another known 20a circuit somewhere else in the house – or even into a neighbor’s wall. :-p Heck, try it on another 15A circuit. Either way, you’ll get to the bottom of whether it’s the saw or the breaker/wiring.

I highly doubt you have 10/2 as standard wiring in your home. Whatever it is, if you test it with a 30a breaker I most certainly wouldn’t make it permanent, otherwise you better have a good fire extinguisher handy.

And one more thing…are you absolutely sure nothing else is on the circuit? If somebody in my upstairs bathroom turns on a hair-dryer while I am using my planer, my 20a circuit breaker pops.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#71 posted 559 days ago

yes I am aware the plug is different we were talking wire size and breakers though the problem he is having may be old breakers but I don’t think bumping up the breaker is a big deal Now if the saw were pulling 30 amps all the time I would worry but my bet is it wont be a problem.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#72 posted 559 days ago

the dude50 - I think Topamax is refering to NEC 210.21… It states that a single receptacle must have the rating not less than the rating of the branch circuit…So it would not be legal for a 15 or 20 amp recepacle on a 30 amp breaker…

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14613 posts in 2279 days


#73 posted 559 days ago

Yes, you can’t change the permanent wiring, but for a quick test to see if it solves the problem while you are standing right there.
WE do what we have to do to test and resolve the issue, don’t we ? ;-))

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#74 posted 558 days ago

my bet is the breaker is old and weak a new 20 amp breaker would be fine most likely however if mine kept tripping id just up the breaker and break in the motor for a wile then swith it to a 20 amp breaker later

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#75 posted 557 days ago

gtbuzz – Check your messages for more detail, but in a nutshell, I re-wired my G0661 to 110, and have no issues with it so far. I have it set up per the Grizzly instuctions – 20 amp breaker, 12/2 wire, and 5-20 outlet. So it’s possible you have an issue with the saw motor.

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

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gtbuzz

346 posts in 1045 days


#76 posted 534 days ago

It’s been a little while since I’ve updated this thread, and unfortunately things have gone from bad to worse for me. I’ve been on vacation for a while and also travelling for work so it’s severly limited my tinkering time.

About two weeks ago I spoke to the Grizzly tech about this saw and they felt like it was a defective motor. I had already swapped out the 20 amp breakers for new ones (still 20 amp) just to make sure they weren’t defective and coupled with kdc68’s experiences, I was also leaning that way. They gave me an option to just send back the motor, have it repaired and they would retun it to me. I wasn’t okay with that because 1) I found damage to the table that I didn’t notice before that would have prevented the wings from ever mating flush and 2) it’s far easier for me to just put it back on the crate since I never got very far in the assembly process. Because of the shipping damage when I recevied it, I really also didn’t want to go much further with this saw in case there were other hidden gremlins that I’d later uncover.

The Grizzly tech told me that I could send back the saw and have it repaired and they would ship it back which takes about 2 weeks. I explained that that was too long and I didn’t want to get this saw back again because of any potential issues hidden damage, so suggested I buy a new one and return the old one. He assured when I return the old one I’d get a full refund. He even had to get approval for this.

About another week went by and the old saw went and the new saw came. First thing I tested right out of the box was the startup on 110 and guess what? No more tripping circuit! I have no idea what the difference is, but all I know is that the old saw tripped the circuit, while the new one doesn’t. In fact, I threw a 15’ 12/3 extension cord into the mix and it tripped the first time I used it, but never after. I even let it sit for a week while I was travelling, unplugged and the first time I started, no trip. Unfortunately, that’s where the good news ends.

I next wanted to check the alignment of the blade to the miter slot, but even that was a very trying process. The G0715P has a panel on the back attached with 6 internal hex bolts that’s supposed to make accessing the rear trunnion bolts simpler. Unfortunately for me, whoever attached that panel in the factory did such a poor job of it, they overtorqued the fasteners and 5/6 heads were completely stripped. I had to go get one of those grabbit screw extractors to get them out. I actually wanted a reason to buy that anyway, but that’s still no excuse for it coming from the factory like that.

Problems got worse when I got the cover off. No matter how much I loosened the trunnion bolts, I could not get the blade be more than 0.015” out of alignment with the miter slot. It seems like the holes in the table were just mis-drilled as I can vary the alignment from 0.015” to 0.030” but never less than 0.015”. I got the original saw dialed in to +/- 0.001 at all elevations and all blade angles! The 0.015-0.030” numbers seemed unbelievable to me so I even checked with 3 different blades and 2 different dial indicators – all report the same thing.

Now, unfortunately I have no pictures to confirm this, but I have this gut feeling there was something different about the trunion setup on this saw. I can’t put my finger on what it is, but I really felt like originally I had more access to the casting via the rear panel. I’m probably crazy since it seems unlikely they’d change something like that mid-production-run, but I just can’t shake that feeling. Also, for what it’s worth, the date code on the second saw is mid-2011. The date code on the first saw was late 2011.

At this point, I’m very frustrated and don’t want to have to potentially troubleshoot a third saw, so I sent Grizzly customer service an email explaining my frustrations and requested a full refund. They said a technician would contact me within 24 hours to help diagnose the problem, but instead I actually got a return label + RMA just a few hours later with no additional questions asked. This actually did make me quite happy that it was potentially going to be this hassle free.

On Saturday I got a refund for the original saw, however instead of the $858 that I was promised, it was for only about $550. I called to inquire why and they didn’t refund my shipping, deducted me the cost of return shipping and also took 10% off because the tech that inspected it said that he found no issues with it. Sorry, but that’s completely the opposite of what I was told and I don’t know why they didn’t find anything wrong with it, but the facts speak for themselves – old saw didn’t work, new saw does. They also said that I didn’t properly exchange the 10 amp breaker for a 20 amp one in the 220/110 conversion, but that’s also wrong because I was told to just keep the original breaker for the new saw.

Hopefully this all gets cleared up and I can just get a full refund for everything, but I’m not sending back this replacement saw until the refund on the first one gets cleared up and I can get something in writing that I’m getting a full refund.

Perhaps I’m a glutton for punishment but if this was just a mix-up and Grizzly can make this right and just give me all my money back I will still consider buying tools from them (not this saw though!!) in the future. Their customer service was always very responsive and their techs decently knowledgable. Seems to be a lost art now a days.

If not though? Chargebacks my credit card + BBB complaints are probably in store.

Table saw search continues, I suppose.

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toolie

1723 posts in 1232 days


#77 posted 534 days ago

that stinks. you’ve persevered FAR more than i would have. good luck with the refund and the replacement saw search.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View gtbuzz's profile

gtbuzz

346 posts in 1045 days


#78 posted 534 days ago

And Grizzly’s CS supervisor called me back today and they say… NO FULL REFUND! According to them, the saw was miswired, but they couldn’t tell me how. This makes no sense because

1) I walked through the wiring with the Grizzly tech
2) I verified the wiring with what was on the saw motor
3) If it was miswired, it never would have run under 110 at all
4) It’s directly contrary to what I was promised by the technician I spoke to

Ugh. I just wanted to make some saw dust but now I may have to lawyer up. So far I’ve spent almost $1700 and I STILL HAVE NO WORKING SAW!

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thedude50

3503 posts in 1081 days


#79 posted 533 days ago

Well my friend this is really bad news about this. I assure you if this had been a SawStop they would have delivered the replacement and not played games with you about the wiring. I would be fit to be tied if I were you and what about all the other damage to the saw that you reported to them did they forget the saw was damaged goods this is piss poor and is unacceptable they need to fix this problem right away if they care at all about their reputation with woodworkers. I cant buy this crap that the wiring was wrong because the saw would not have ran if it was wrong no way no how and what is worse they will re sell this saw to some poor schmuck who simply don’t know whats wrong with it at the scratch and dent sale and there are no warranties on those tools.

My recommendation is to buy a saw stop. They make a nice saw that will run on 110

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#80 posted 533 days ago

Wow…the situation sucks. Hopefully you remembered names of the techs you talked to. They should have a “file” with all you conversations and “advice” from these techs. Keep fighting and good luck

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

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waho6o9

4754 posts in 1180 days


#81 posted 533 days ago

Amazing.

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knotscott

5371 posts in 1979 days


#82 posted 533 days ago

Ouch….that sucks. Try sending an email or a PM to Shiraz Balolia…he sometimes visits Sawmillcreek.org. You might also try another supervisor….be a squeaky wheel. It sounds like you have every reason to be. Threaten them with a lawsuit if you have to, but you’re entitled to a good working saw if they can’t explain how you rewired it incorrectly.

(p.s. No need to answer my question about the motor in another thread….you answered it here.)

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

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kdc68

1942 posts in 880 days


#83 posted 533 days ago

If they said it was miswired but don’t know how. It may have been miswired from the factory. Thats perhaps why it tripped in the first place. Isn’t switching 220 to 110 a matter of a couple of jumpers ? That should be easy to determine. If they can’t prove it was you, then it must be the factory

-- Measure "at least" twice and cut once

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