All Replies on BS Newbie with "Stupid ???" re: Rikon 10-325 Purchase

I just got a 1/4” blade from Timberwolf to make tighter curves. The 5/8 blade is a resaw blade. Check out timberwolf online for your blades. Curve is a 6 tpi 1/4”. Any will rip regular wood, like 2×4s. You might want to look at a light unless your saw has one. I put on on the upper door and it focuses on the blade. Very nice thing to have.

-- Failure does not stop me, it makes me try harder..... because I'm crazy.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3,a 1/4in
3b. 3/4in TW
3c. Huh? See 3c.

Lately folks on LJs have been dissing TimberWolf blades. This appears to be a recent trend. I have not had any serious problems with TimberWolf blades. I run a 3/4in 3TPI on my 14in #10-325. All the armchair WW’rs may differ, so you may end up needing to try your own choices. Stock tends to be less than optimum though truly not that bad. Carry a big salt shaker because there are many armchair quarterbacks on LJs, just saying. Your mileage may vary…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

Russell,
Thanks for the input.

HM,
When you say “Yes” to my questions about the fence and guides, do you mean they are satisfactory or that they need to be upgraded?

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

wish i could help RANDY,BUT IM READING ALONG AS ONEDAY I HOPE TO UP GRADE MY SELF

-- Jesus Is Alright with me

I have NOT had an issue with either the fence or the bearings. I have resawn as much as 9in with only the stock fence. Would attaching a higher fence be an advantage, sure but it has not been a problem thus far. The fence locks down square and vertical, and yes I have checked this regularly nearly every time I have used it.

FWIW, Once I decided to use a 3/4in blade for resawing, I have NOT used the round “resaw” post. I use the straight fence without issue. And this has given me better results. The post was always a challenge and variable.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

I find is that re-saw is over-rated regarding a ‘must-have’ – there are grand-plans to cut veneer, to cut limbs from downed trees, to do many things which resaw speaks to. However, most BS work is cutting either tight or sweeping curves, or stopped-cuts which only a jigaw could do, and do badly. This is not to suggest that resaw is inconsequential an application; just that there are individuals who do a LOT of it, because they do veneer work; or they live near Parks or Forests, and have a real opportunity to cut logs to rough dimensions.

The 14” BS range is a sweet-spot for most manufacturers; however, the guides typically need upgrading – thank our lucky stars that Carter has this nailed; and the fences are not that useful (everyone seems to have manufactured their own alternative).

Regarding blades, I’m not sure that most 14” BS can properly tension a 5/8” blade – and stay with quality BS manufacturers – Timberwolf is highly regarded (HM’s observations are point-on – there’s a lot to be said for these blades, and their support is reputed to be excellent); Starrett & Lenox will set you back some money, but they use top-quality metals, the welds are invisible (smoother tracking, more consistent results), and they have well-earned reputations are risk.

My own recommendations are to buy a high-quality 1/4” blade for curves; and a 1/2” for general work. At your price-point, you’re close to the Delta and perhaps the Powermatic – these set the standard for the 14” range.
A final point is to query YouTube for BS tune-up; these are complicated machines to fine-tune.

Good Luck
MJCD

-- Lead By Example; Make a Difference

i’ve only used on once
a few finicky things
but nothing to stop from buying
especially at that price

use it for a bit first
and see how you like it
then see if blowing more for extras
is really necessary

a good blade is a definite

but it has a good fence
and a light too

you can send me the gift coupon
for this free advice lol

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

I have nearly resawn 200BF of lumber thus far. And at a savings between $2-$3BF, I have basically paid for my 14in BS already. Personally, I do not consider resawing to be an over-rated activity. I made the decision to resaw in order to save $$$ and it is paying off for me. I know that others can argue, and argue successfully that buying dimensional lumber is a better route to go. That has not been my choice to pursue. And by resawing, I am in control of the final product, NOT the big box store.

I have averaged $2 -2.50BF for 8/4 Ash and 12/4 Soft Maple and I am a happy camper. I choose not to use the more expensive woods. I really love my 14in Rikon BS and have no real complaints, other than I wish I had an 18in version as well, or in place of. You know how it is… ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

I may be getting into the resaw mode – I recently purchased the Hammer 17” BS, with 10” resaw; and have a park nearby that allows locals to clear storm-downed trees. I’m hoping to save the $$/bft that others have done so successfully. I’m tired of paying outrageous prices for Cherry & Walnut.

-- Lead By Example; Make a Difference

Maybe it is just me, but I personally do not feel like waiting the 2-5 years to sticker my own roughcut lumber waiting on a final product. I will go ahead and buy the dried 8/4 and 12/4 boards. THAT is my compromise. If I were in my 40s then I am sure that I would probably pursue the entire logging experience, but at 60 I am a bit gun shy in trusting that I have that much time left in the game. I still save some $$$, just maybe not as much as acquiring free trees/lumber, but at least I am saving some.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

Thanks Guys,

Eddie,
I’m sorry there isn’t a “bouncing ball” to help you follow along.

HM,
That’s the type of info I am looking for, insights from experienced users. Thanks!

MJCD,
Since I live in “The Green Moutain State” of Vermont, access to “downed trees” is a regular occurrence. As I already have a jointer and planer, a BS will allow me to “mill” my own rough lumber and see the savings that HM speaks of and who can argue with cost savings!!!

David,
Quality blades are a “given”. I also know that Carter sets the bar, but waiting to judge “stock” performance is wise. It don’t hurt that HM speaks well of the guides (and fence)!!!

The last thing I need to do is change my mind at the last minute. I’m looking at placing my order tomorrow. I will be ordering from the store directly (ie; not online) and traveling 3.5 hours to pick up the saw (next week). SORRY DAVID, if only I didn’t NEED more clamps, I’d give the card to you, but I’ll be spending that gift card on “stuff”, when I pick up my saw. Now to go look at mobile bases….....

Thanks everyone.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

if I was selling this bandsaw and u were the buyer

i would escort you to your car

and you would leave

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

With a smile——if we agreed on everything, then there wouldn’t be a value to the Forum. I welcome individuals who disagree with me with a good reason to do so – typically, they have much more experience than I do.

MJCD

-- Lead By Example; Make a Difference

I have the same bandsaw and while I haven’t used it a lot yet, once properly setup, the guides seem just fine, and I didn’t see a problem tensioning the stock 5/8 blade by simply using the gauge on the saw itself.

I like the stock fence, not planning on using the “resaw bar” as I think a saw should be able to cut straight using a regular fence. My previous bandsaws did and I had no trouble resawing straight, one was a 12” Craftsman, and the other a 16” clone of a Laguna LTE3000 saw.

I did have an issue with the fence support bar having a pretty serious bow, which meant the fence would never stay parallel to the miter or blade when locking, depending on the distance. Support was good and they sent me a new mounting bar (contacted them by email), which is not perfectly straight but much better.

One difficulty if you do plan to install an aftermarket fence, the blade comes out through the front of the table, and the stock fence support bar stops short of the slot, to allow for the blade to come out. To my knowledge, aftermarket fences do not account for that.

The table had to be made perpendicular to the back of the blade. The set screws for that are a bit tricky to reach, and not at all where the manual says they are, but on the opposite side. Although, if you do it calmly, it’s actually pretty easy and quick to do, the biggest difficulty being to be able to find the set screws holes with the allen key.

There is a steel connection bar that closes the blade channel at the front of the table. On my saw, this has to be tightened very well to make sure both sides of the table are flat and inline with each other.

Hope this helps and gives a few useful tips.

-- David - Tucson, AZ

Moron,
Wood I leave with or without the saw???

MJCD,
Like you, I say this with a smile:)!!!
Opinions are like A-holes, everybody has one!!!

I asked for input because I don NOT know everything. Different people have different experiences and those experiences shape our opinions. Like I said, my actual use of the saw is yet to be determined, but I have a pretty good idea what I want it for. As I progress along my WW hobby, needs and wants will certainly mature. Thank you for your time and thoughts on what to me is a major purchase.

LeChuck,
Thank you for the insights and tips, they are sure to be put to good use. The heads up on the fence support bar is greatly appreciated, as is all the other information. Thank you for taking the time to post, as not only do I benefit, but others are sure to be helped also!!! That IS what makes LJs the great site, err community that it is!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

I have a jet and paid for an upgraded fence….and it turned out to be crap. Soo..You already heard from some one who owns that saw, and that is the best, I wish I had asked about this fence. The saw I have is great. (those who are curious it was a jet upgrade for length table size and removable resaw bar. sorry will add model number if any interest)

HM: Ya’ll right on about the re-sawing and I will echo… It is not very much about saw milling and very much about the savings, and technical bonuses of buying rough lumber!! Add the speed,safety, and savings on the thickness planer all pay quickly. Every once in awhile It will even cut a curve.

others: Don’t under estimate the re-saw bar. For me it is a crucial step before jointing: For example here is how I use it routinely. I buy some 8/4 rough mahogany (sipo, african, tropical Who knows these days) It has been saw milled with what appears to be a home made contraption made from beer bottles and motorcycle chains in the back of a jungle somewhere. (we are talking 1/8” to 1/4” kerf marks) I shutter at the idea of shocking my jointer or planer blades on that, I don’t want to lose a finger and a kidney on the TS (and then buy a new motor) I just want to get to a consistent thickness so I can straighten the board. On that re saw bar it goes, then that re-sawn side to the jointer, join square, back on the BS with the bar off the fence on now, resaw both directions 1/8” over, thickness plane, and yay I have boards.

If that sounds like you go for the re saw fence, If that is not what you are imagining, just keep a regular fence.

check out the fun you can be having with a 14” BS here
” http://youtu.be/l2KjlR89PWk“

-- Who is John Galt?

WOW! that is alot of meaty comments.
After reading all of this, I whole heartedly agree with Hoiz-mike. I also own a Ricon 10-325 and do alot of Bandsaw boxes and resawing. I will attest the fact that this saw has never left me wanting for something more.
I bought mine on sale last year ($750 and no gift card) and also purchased the Timberwolf blades.
The 5/8 blade that comes with it I use as a general purpose ‘cutter’.
For the BS boxes I use the 1/4” mostly and once in a while for tight cuts I use the 1/8” blade.
For Resaw I use a 3/4” ... like H-Mike said I don’t use the post, I use the stock fence with great results.
I’m just reiterating what has been said here ... So, ‘what they said’ too.
The only thing that this saw does not have is a brake like the Laguna ($2200) has.
This is the only sawin the less than $1000 range that will resaw 13” with out buying the extention blocks etc. adding to the cost of the saw.

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it.

Good video, I had to laugh cause it looked like me a few times except I was doing it by myself. A good example of pushing the limits and hope for the best.

Get your saw, set it up, start sawing, if you do not like what it is doing then look for upgrades then. Make your own resaw fence clamp it down on both sides and when your done take it off. Get several of the smaller blades for radius and curved work and enjoy….. To me buying 12/4 material is more expenise per board foot if your just going to resaw it down to 4/4 boards. Everytime I have bought thicker lumber the cost per b.f. is higher. One would think it would be a little cheaper cause it is less time, fewer cuts….. All of this advice from a Lazyboy with my feet up in the air drinking coffee…... Enjoy…..

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

Gshepherd: I had a feeling I might not be the only one who pushes the limits, but hey it was a calculated risk :) I say that having pushed a 30” re-saw past the limits many years ago. I can remember it seeming like a lot of time to review my mistake while watching that blade pile up on the table…. jumping away. And how quiet my boss was after that incident… and not the good kind of quiet. But now I’m the boss so saw away. That saw is now wired for 220. That project was for a bed frame. We sawed the sides off of a single re claimed, hand hewn longleaf pine post (cut in half in the video, and note the re-saw post!!) and constructed the bed frame. It cleared the throat by 1/4” with the sled attached. I got an order for a second bed from the same client. I should have videoed that to show how much less it bogged down wired for 220.

-- Who is John Galt?

Oh yea, a few months back I had 20 corbels to cut on the end of 21’ long cedar beams, 10×12’s on both ends. I took my 14” saw, took it off the base, bought 5 of the ball type roller bearings and screwed them to some 3/4 plywood, then a lazy susan, then another piece of 3/4 ply and bolted the bandsaw to it all. so I made my own rolling twisting bandsaw. It worked great. Architect was pleased and better yet the customer was also.. Amazing part is I did not break one blade….. We do what we have to do sometimes….

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

Joey,
Thanks for your insight & input. Oh yeah, great video! Perhaps someday that will be me maxing out my saw!!!

Grumpymike,
The 1-1/2HP motor and 13” resaw capacity are two of the things that sold me on this saw (yeah, the price was a MAJOR factor, who am I kidding!). I’m glad it is working out for you. I’m hoping to be able to say the same.

Gshepherd,
I hear ya, regarding building my own resaw fence. I thought about that and with HM input on the fence it seems like a valid plan. The same goes for the guides.

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to help me! I usually find it difficult to pry $1000.00 from my wallet. With all your help, my wallet is about to be a little lighter. So much for family getting store bought x-mas presents this year. I see bandsaw boxes in their future!!!

See ya, I gotta go place a phone call to WOODCRAFT…......

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

THE TRIGGER HAS BEEN PULLED!

I just got off the phone with WOODCRAFT. I now own a saw, that is not yet in my possession!!!

It is now hurry up and wait.
WAIT for it to arrive at the store!
WAIT for the 3 hour trip, to pick it up!
WAIT to spend my $100.00 WOODCRAFT gift card!
WAIT for the 3 hour return trip!
WAIT for the initial setup!
WAIT for the first cuts!
WAIT for the first bandsaw box!

Have I ever said how much I hate to WAIT!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

Nice Job…. am sure you will enjoy it. I know a lot of LJ’s here have a Rikon and they like them. It is tough someitmes to buy equipment with so many diff options and all but you made a good choice.

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

Yee Haw!.... Welcome to the club. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The only negative is putting together the base, because it is a PITA. Just remember, you only do it ONCE! ;-) Screws and bolts are in the tightest corners, but once done you can forget about it.

TIP: I put mine on an HTC mobile base and I used TWO (double thickness) 3/4in plywood boards as a base and made the base roughly 5-6 inches wider than the natural base. I did this to make the BS much more stable, and the double ply allows me to open the BS base “door” without banging into the mobile base wheels, seriously. Works like a champ.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

Gshepherd,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am soooo looking forward, as I can’t look back now, they have my money!!! Like I said earlier, I wanted the security of a warranty for a purchase this large (wallet not necessarily weight). Input from the good, err GREAT folks here on LJs helps to minimize any buyer’s remorse and angst.

I guess I better start looking for some boards to resaw and bandsaw box ideas….....

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

HM,
Great advice on widening the mobile base. Which HTC base do you have?

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

Here you go. This is the HTC 3000HD:
http://www.amazon.com/HTC-3000-Universal-700-Pound-Capacity/dp/B000P0R7YM

All of the locks are foot activated and work very well. Not cheap but well worth it IMO. Makes moving it very easy. As a matter of fact, I often forget to lock the base wheels and never notice the difference, since I widened the base plate. I have my BS plugged into 240v overhead, and just move it around to keep it out of the way when using the TS and proper placement for BS work. Oh yeah, and to keep it out of the way when parking my Harley… ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

HM,
Thanks for the mobile base info & link. Does the Harley get moved, covered or dusty when your workin’ the wood?

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

The dust blows off rather well above 70mph ;-)

But seriously, I just sweep often and use the air hose to blow everything off once in a while. When I come home I have to turn left at the TS, and then back up and into the position you see above. Kind of a tight fit, but it does allow me to use 80% of the garage as my “shop.” The checkered tiles keep me honest and keeps the bike a safe distance from everything else. An invisible fence if you will.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

@ mike nice shop you and Randy you have me wanting a new saw i got a ridgid but it lacks a lot ,one day .i think it looks to be good choice

-- Jesus Is Alright with me

Now How many of ya’ll are thinking about why you don’t have more lazy susans in your shop.

Gshepherd I can see myself doing that. When I need to do that I think i will go with an air float system… like an air hockey table

HM nice shop.. the bike ain’t bad either

-- Who is John Galt?

Who needs a “Lazy Susan”,.........
When they’ve got a VERY lazy Randy!!!!

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

congrats on the buy, DIY. that’s a great saw and welcome to the world of rikon band saws. for a mobile base, i’d humbly suggeat this one:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2080750/33126/woodriver-universal-mobile-base-hardware-kit.aspx

two layers of 1/2” plywood would provide a rock solid base to which the saw itself could be bolted. i have an htc on my 18” rikon and it’s a dreadful base. thin metal extension bars flex when the saw is operating leading to vibration issues. when i’m ready to make a little more room available to my BS, i’ll be switching to the wood river base linked above.

and try to avoid those timberwolf blades woodcraft sells. the welds are, at best, inconsistent, leading to blade loping and vibration issues. i’m partial to lennox from iturra, but olsun also gets good ratings.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

Toolie,
I will take your input under advisement. Yep, my next purchase will be a (as of now undetermined) mobile base.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

I’m getting in on this forum a little late, but I have to put in a pitch for bandsaw blades from Iturra Design. I talked bandsaw with Louis Iturra for about an hour one day and was amazed with his knowledge. I ordered his version of the Highland “Woodslicer” from him and have been very well pleased with it and didn’t pay near as much. He also sends his top notch catalog with your order, it’s a wealth of info.

-- I may be slow, but I'm easy to stop!!!

Sonnyr,
You may be late to the party, but you are fashionably late! That is good info, thanks.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

Hey Guys,

I have just purchased a Rockwell 28-240 Band Saw. It is in great shape, little old, but the guy I bought it from did some fine cutting on it to show me how it works. I am in the process of building my shop and acquiring my tools, so I have not used the BS myself yet.

Any thoughts about MY new band saw, I’ll take good and bad, but prefer honest opinions like I have read all through LJ’s people. New member not too long ago, learning a lot but have a lot to learn.

-- Mark, ”...NEWBEE: On the road to learning a lot; but; a lot more to learn…” ("My Granddad used to tell me, if you didn't learn something new today, it just wasn't worth getting out of bed")

MarkSr,
Congrats on your new to you BS! I have no experience with that saw, so can’t offer any opinion.

You may get a better response and answers to your questions if you were to start another discussion on a seperate thread. Also pictures and serial numbers can help to estimate the age of the machine for more accurate assessments.

Welcome to LJs and good luck on your quest for information and with putting your shop and machines into service.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

DIY,
The reason I mentioned to you that you should use TWO 3/4in pieces of Plywood with the HTC mobile base is TO RAISE the base of the Rikon high enough for the cabinet door to OPEN without being blocked by the wheel bracket. Too bad about @toolie and his poor experiences. I have found the HTC to be more than enough for this use. And the HTC will NOT sag as a pure plywood base would over time. Something to consider.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

My bandsaw is on an HTC2000 base. The base is sized almost exactly to the footprint of the saw. I use it just so I can pull the saw away from the wall in case I cut some longer boards, to clear the other tools that are against the wall, like my scroll saw. I don’t detect any flex (with the size of the bandsaw’s base, I ended up not using all the sections of the mobile base). One of the wheels does prevent the door of the storage compartment from opening fully but that’s not a real problem. It opens enough.

-- David - Tucson, AZ

HM,
I like the added strength/rigidity of the 2×3/4” ply and oversizing the base for stability. The HTC-3000 is rated for 700#, the HTC-2000 is rated for 500#, while the 10-325 is spec’d at 250#. Is there a reason you chose the 3000 over the 2000?

LeChuck,
Based on spec’s, I’m leaning towards the HTC-2000, as it is rated at 2X the saw’s weight. There is a $50.00 difference at WOODCRAFT, that could go a long way towards other shop essentials.

Are there other quality mobile bases that I should/could consider? (Keep in mind that I’m looking for features and low price.)

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

The HTC-2000 is currently going for $59 at Amazon. I bought 2 of those when they were on sale for $49, which happens sometimes. At that price, it’s a really good deal and I don’t know of anything better short of making it from scratch with some casters if you have the materials handy. If not, it’s a no brainer in my opinion. People talk about the cheap Harbor Freight base and I bought one of those before the HTC, but for the relatively small price difference, it wasn’t worth the hassle and my time and I returned it.

-- David - Tucson, AZ

I have one of the HF bases, they’re not bad, but not great either. Can you believe I said that about a HF item!!! Lol. The HF base doesn’t have the foot operated lift, which I WILL become a fan of. I only mentioned the WOODCRAFT pricing as a reference point, as I would shop around for the best price. I may also look at a local store, to help support the local economy. I used to have grandiose plans of shop building everything, but reality set in and I just don’t have enough time for that.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!

DIY, Congrats on the saw purchase, I’m sure that you will never regret it.
Be sure to open the garage door when you first fire that baby up … the broad smile and bulging chest will surley need some extra room.
I still use the stock guides on my saw, upgrading to the Carter seems to be an unecessary expence to me, but, I have never used them either, so I cannot say for sure.
HM’s advice on the base is spot on, I put mine directly on the (Wood River) base and have to scoot that 300# monster thisaway or thataway to open the doors. Someday I will have some muscle over to help me lift the BS to get some 3/4 ply under it.
I look forward to seeing your next post after receiving the new saw … ummm, showing off your next project.

-- Grumpy old guy, and lookin' good Doin' it.

DIY: ”...Is there a reason you chose the 3000 over the 2000?...”

The HTC-3000 has FOUR locking wheels.
The HTC-2000 has TWO locking wheels.

I wanted/liked the model with the 4-locking wheels.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

the wood river mobile base from woodcraft just came off it’s $49.99 sale price ( it gets sale priced a few times a year). at that price, it’s a good deal and, as an owner of an HTC mobile base, when i replace it, i won’t CL it. i’ll toss that POS in the trash. there is no way that i am aware of to mechanically attach the saw to the htc bases. with the wood river base, the plywood is bolted to the components and the saw can be bolted to the plywood. and should you ever upgrade and want to reassign the woodriver base, just cut different sized pieces of plywood. it has the weight capacity to handle heavier equipment.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

Personally, I haven’t seen a need to bolt the saw to the mobile base. I sized my HTC mobile base to be tight around the saw’s base, with maybe half an inch of extra room in each direction.

-- David - Tucson, AZ

that’s what i did, but i’ll be changing bases at some point and will bolt the saw to the plywood base and then attach the plywood to the base’s components.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

I am in agreement with Horizontal Mike, with the only exception that I uses a 1/2 inch TW blade to resaw. I never thought my Ridigid could handle a 3/4 inch blade.

BTW, I use the General Int. mobile bases and like them.

-- Todd http://www.PictureTrail.com/gid6255915

Grumpymike,
My shop is in the basement. Maybe the over expanding chest & smile will enlarge my small 13’ X 20’ shop into a more comfortable 20’ X 40’ space!!!

HM,
I thought the locking wheels might have been the deciding factor. Thanks.

Toolie,
Bummer on your experience with the HTC base. Could you not do what HorizontalMike did and add 2X 3/4” ply mounted to both the HTC mobile base & saw base?

LeChuck,
You don’t find the saw “tippsy”, as you move it around? I’ll probably follow HM’s lead and increase the footprint of the base, to provide stability and peace of mind.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow!