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Blame the .0001 drift.

by RussellAP
posted 10-28-2012 01:40 PM


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83 replies so far

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bandit571

7475 posts in 1428 days


#51 posted 10-28-2012 09:21 PM

I once knew a Poster that thought one just could NOT do any work “wothy” of his consideration, unless it was at least $3000+ PER tool. “Just can’t be done!” he would proclaim. I did a little checking up on his Ivory Tower loacale. Hmmm, does not even own a shop, he was just a Shop Manager, and watched out through a window as lesser being toiled away. He would buy as needed, if the shop foreman said such & such tool was needed. Even had the same to say about what finishes to use. Ivory Tower Syndrome…..

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

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GarageWoodworks

447 posts in 901 days


#52 posted 10-28-2012 09:23 PM

@Cosmicsniper nailed it with “I think when people make posts about how they don’t understand why others do something, it is coming either from ignorance, arrogance, or jealousy. “

Well said.

-- Subscribe on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/GarageWoodworks?feature=guide

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Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1903 days


#53 posted 10-28-2012 09:47 PM

Thanks, GWW.

I’m not saying I’m immune to those judgments myself. I’ve been guilty of wondering the same thing before, particularly with Festool buyers. But that comes from my own ignorance. I did the same thing with high-dollar hand planes, until I actually bought my Lie-Nielsen rabbet/block plane. Worth it!

It’s not a criticism of Russell…I like the topics he is posting…makes things fun. But that statement about being technical vs. being artistic really had me taken aback!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

15519 posts in 1312 days


#54 posted 10-28-2012 09:57 PM

Or maybe…. trying to understand why other people do things differently is an avenue of learning. Remember in some circles, LN planes are not considered high dollar. I just made some remarks on another thread about being jealous of anyone who could afford $1100 for a set of Bridge City chisels. Worth it? Maybe? Can I afford it, well yea, but the mortgage payment is more important.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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RussellAP

2966 posts in 1031 days


#55 posted 10-28-2012 10:01 PM

Sorry Cosmic. We all have some of each in us. I’m not saying that just because you like to have perfect tools and gadgets that you don’t produce art. For me, all that fuss is distracting from my art. It won’t flow if I have to mess with tools. Here’s a forinstance. Rather than take out my router to round off edges, I’ll just sand them. It’s not as perfect as a router but it’ll do unless the piece requires that degree of formality. I don’t gravitate toward pieces that require that much formality however I do enjoy making it once in a while. Keep your chops up. I come from very humble beginnings, and I didn’t use power tools when I was a kid. I made speakers with 1” ply with a hand saw. Consequently I made a lot of things that required some tweaking to look good. Now it’s just my style to want to tweak some piece into something more interesting. I find that there are no tools for this kind of work, but sometimes you really just have the end in mind and do whatever for the means. For some that means buying precision tools, for others with limited funds it means being creative with the tools you have. If I had a Festool shop, I wonder if I would have any feel for WWing at all. I think it would just be too easy. I need the resistance which forces me to ‘swerve’.
Hopefully this makes sense after two glasses of wine. You wouldn’t believe how long it took to write.

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View cutworm's profile

cutworm

1065 posts in 1538 days


#56 posted 10-28-2012 10:05 PM

I’m nowhere near the point of being able to blame my tools and they are not high end tools. Just good tools mostly Ridgid that I am lucky enough to get dirt cheap. All of the jigs and fixture I am collecting really help me. Most have came from this site. I can still find some very creative ways to screw up. Mostly with my hand router. You blink, your screwed.

-- Steve - "Never Give Up"

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#57 posted 10-28-2012 10:07 PM

LN planes are not considered high dollar.

LOL, yeah, but I think that there is a point of diminishing returns for those of us who actually use the tools for work. I love my LN 51 even with it’s price tag, but I really don’t see how a $10,000 Holtey smoother would make a surface 30 times better than my LN #4. Yet, if someone in this thread has one, send it to me and prove me wrong….hahahaha.

Now I have to fess up, there for a while I was considering getting a Marcou bevel up smoother, but at almost $3000 I came to my senses and decided I could, just maybe, be nuts…. :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Don W's profile

Don W

15519 posts in 1312 days


#58 posted 10-28-2012 10:14 PM

And JGM, I’ve got a Sargent #708 that will make you LN #4 look like a sissy with training wheels. But I’m with you on the diminishing returns and I think Marcou’s planes are absolutely gorgeous, but as you say…...I gone past the question, I certainly am a bubble or so off center, but not quit that far.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

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Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#59 posted 10-28-2012 10:15 PM

For me, all that fuss is distracting from my art.

Jeeezz…I feel like I am dumping on you Russell, but here once more I don’t get this idea that calibrating and squaring your machines is “fussing” with them. To me there is nothing more rewarding than making two cuts and having the pieces mate perfectly and squarely. I love my hand tools, but I want to use them to create, not to fix errors… :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#60 posted 10-28-2012 10:19 PM

And JGM, I’ve got a Sargent #708 that will make you LN #4 look like a sissy with training wheels.

Ok Don, lets not go there and start posting pictures of thin shavings….. :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Don W's profile

Don W

15519 posts in 1312 days


#61 posted 10-28-2012 10:21 PM

So there in lies the ability to use your tools. Do you need to slam the TS fence onto the measurement, lock it down and go, or are you ok with taking the time and measuring the front and back of the blade to fence to get it right? I did it for so long, even though I can now slam the fence onto the measurement, lock it down and go, I still measuring the front and back of the blade to fence to make sure it’s right?

It’s all in your perspective.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

15519 posts in 1312 days


#62 posted 10-28-2012 10:22 PM

Ok Don, lets not go there and start posting pictures of thin shavings…..

Afraid?....... :-)

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#63 posted 10-28-2012 10:25 PM

I almost never use the TS to make precise cuts. I mostly fine tune with hand tools, but then I have some hand tools like the BCT Jointmaker Pro that some might think (I know Russell will) I am a fool for having them… :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

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Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#64 posted 10-28-2012 10:26 PM

Afraid?....... :-)

All right bubba, keep it up and I will make you eat your shavings….hahahaha

PS. have you seen that video where they pull a Holtey plane and it gets a beautiful even shaving? I admit, my #4 does not do that….LOL.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

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Don W

15519 posts in 1312 days


#65 posted 10-28-2012 10:31 PM

No need. I’m an LN fan. They are great planes, and its hard to believe there is something worth 10times as much. But then I paid $7 frog the Sargent, so …..........

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

2966 posts in 1031 days


#66 posted 10-28-2012 10:39 PM

JGM, I like that saw. How’s the set up time between cuts?

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View Cosmicsniper's profile

Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1903 days


#67 posted 10-28-2012 10:40 PM

Like I said, it’s as much about the journey as the destination. What is “fussing” for one might be bliss for another. My kids got hacked off at me recently for taking my time driving to their grandparents. Of course they did. They don’t understand that a nice drive in the country is half the fun for me.

I like machines, simple ones and complex ones. That’s part of the allure for me and makes me want to give a hardy Tim Taylor grunt when I think of cool tools. In fact, it’s a common theme with all my hobbies…they all have some $$$ invested into them.

But regardless of the tools I have, I just don’t think it’s “fussing” to get them to perform the way they are capable. To me, a little extra time to lock in your tools actually SAVES time and frustration later…with the added benefit of helping you be more safe. Having done my due diligence here (which should be our approach with our tools) allows me the FREEDOM to be artistic. I just find it hard to do art with underperforming tools.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#68 posted 10-28-2012 11:02 PM

JGM, I like that saw. How’s the set up time between cuts?

Uh, what saw? I have a cheap underpowered Crapsman TS that I love. I do not worry about kick back, if the wood pinches the blade, it simply stops (poor man’s saw stop..hahaha), with a sharp blade I can cut things fairly fast, it is just perfect for me. Of course, being a chinese POS had to spend some time squaring it, filing holes that were placed in the wrong position, etc.

Ah, you mean the Jointmaker Pro? Think of it as a japanese hand saw upside down, the time it takes you to set up with a hand saw, it is the same with the JM. Then again cutting tenon shoulders, dovetails, etc with it, is a thing of magic… :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

2966 posts in 1031 days


#69 posted 10-28-2012 11:05 PM

I thought you had the Jointmaker Pro?

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#70 posted 10-28-2012 11:08 PM

Yeah sorry, it came back to me and I edited the post…..

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#71 posted 10-28-2012 11:12 PM

On the other hand I am going to give you one more hard time….here you are telling us about the schmuck buying the $1500 TS and on another thread you have a possible tool gloat….whats up with that? I am starting to think there is a cheapness factor to you… :-) (notice the smiley, I am joking)...

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

2966 posts in 1031 days


#72 posted 10-29-2012 12:17 AM

Well, that deal fell through. I was going to sell them anyway, except the BS, I could move that around and it would be nice to have one with a decent fence. But some other lucky guy got those. Good Bye $400 profit.

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View derosa's profile

derosa

1557 posts in 1580 days


#73 posted 10-29-2012 12:43 AM

I think Don W. and JGM brought in the other thought behind high end items when they started discussing high end planes. Sometimes you do it because the tool is simply a nicer item. Marcou’s planes are absolutely gorgeous Yes they are, I’m betting that his smoother isn’t really better then a LN smoother but if I made the kind of money that would let me throw it around I’d skip some LN’s and have a full line of Marcou’s work. Not because it is better but because it is playing in the shop with a work of art. The sense of working with something nicer, shinier, or more artistic can lend that same sense of wanting to produce a higher art and make you more finicky thus more exacting. That same thought may hold true for other items. As I mentioned I don’t try for that much precision; I do expect glue joints in panels or cutting boards to be very exacting but won’t hold it against anyone who expects that precision everywhere or tries to make everything perfect. I just can’t do it.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#74 posted 10-29-2012 12:59 AM

Not because it is better but because it is playing in the shop with a work of art.

Exactly, having things come out right because you use a tool that not only is useful but pretty sort of becomes a source of inspiration that propels you to do more and try more. Here are a few pics of a door I am making, the front is ok, but nothing that cannot be done with a band saw and a TS. Now the back will have a beading adornment, and for that I am using the BCT HP6v2 with a 1/4” bead, just pushing the little plane and seeing perfect beads appear is a source of joy for me.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View Sandra's profile

Sandra

4984 posts in 820 days


#75 posted 10-29-2012 01:45 AM

I love reading threads like this and I learn so much from them. Since I’m new, I’ll equate the arguments to
the type of tool I know well,

I used to think that a carrot peeler was a carrot peeler. I laughed at anyone who would even consider paying $25.00 for something so basic. The one I owned worked fine. I just had to peel toward myself which was rather awkward and the peelings didn’t fall nicely into the scrap bowl. After peeling the carrots, or potatoes or whatever, I would have to pick up the peelings from the floor. No big deal. Was I a better cook because I managed with a budget peeler? No. Would I take money away from my children to buy a better peeler? Absurd.

Was I pressured by advertisers, cooking magazines and fellow wives (odd play on words there!) to buy a better peeler? I guess I was. I went to a Pampered Chef Party (think kitchen tools meet Tupperware) and bought a $25.00 peeler. Guess what? I love the thing. I can peel away from myself and the peelings land nicely in the scrap bowl. It feels good in my hand (okay, that’s a stretch) and it gets the job done with no pia.

The moral of the story, if you’re going to use it, then buy the best danged tool you can afford.

And no, don’t buy the wife a carrot peeler for Christmas ;)

Sandra

-- No, I don't want to buy the pink hammer.

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Grandpa

3203 posts in 1420 days


#76 posted 10-29-2012 02:31 AM

I agree that the tool is rarely the blame. I hope Russell was talking tongue in cheek when he spoke of measuring .0003 on wood. A couple of degrees of temperature would change things that much. That is approximately 1/9 the thickness of a sheet of paper.

View REO's profile

REO

662 posts in 819 days


#77 posted 10-29-2012 05:38 AM

Ok sometimes I work for fun and to test and try. Other times I work to get the job done. Wood work is a choice. Do I want to labor over the fact that I CAN get it “perfect” or does it fit and work. I have cnc equipment that can hold 0.0002 (tenths of a thousandth) I could set up and run every peice through that if I wanted to but for what reason. Your 200 dollar bench that you spent weeks on or My 200 dollar bench that I did in 4 hours over three days. I can afford to take less if I need to, after spending all the extra time getting it just perfect can you get more. I once made two crosure and cross sets for a customer. One went west and the other went east. My work ethic was the same as it always has been ” a good product for a fair price” For years these have been used in processionals for the Pope when he comes to the US. I have run of the mill tools. Not the cheapest and far from the most expensive but they work for me. I am less frustrated by a mistake errrr , ahhh, alteration when they happen and i can say that I have never had to appologize to my neighbors for throwing a fit because of one.LOL. Any way the original question I thought was where does the fault lie. The fault can only be found in the operator not the equipment.

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Grandpa

3203 posts in 1420 days


#78 posted 10-29-2012 03:01 PM

CNC is different than what most people have in their shops. There is certainly equipment out there that can make those tolerances and their is equipment that can measure those tolerances but most of use don’t have acces to those or even know much about them. I had my square check on a coordinates machine. A bit ecxessive some think but I know what it was on that date. LOL
Thanks for clarifying what you do.

View Knothead62's profile

Knothead62

2364 posts in 1706 days


#79 posted 10-29-2012 08:03 PM

Makes you wonder how WWer’s made anything with precision fit and only used handtools, which they probably made themselves.

View oldnovice's profile

oldnovice

3865 posts in 2112 days


#80 posted 10-29-2012 11:35 PM

Knothead62 you and me both!

The precision of real old work is really mistifying to say the least.
I know that some old pieces in museums have been restored but the initial precision was still there!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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huff

2810 posts in 2030 days


#81 posted 10-30-2012 12:55 AM

Knothead62, oldnovice and me too!

I read a great article a long time ago about a master craftsman that was hired to make an exact duplicate of a Goddard Secretary. The Goodard brothers were renowned cabinetmakers in New England (I believe their work was late 1700’s). The craftsman was not allowed to take the piece of furniture to his shop so he had to take pictures, trace moldings and study the building techniques that were use. The secretary was about 9 ft. tall.

When he was finished and they came to inspect his work, they found 3 major flaws in his work.
1. On one side there were seven flutes on the upper section of the secretary and on the other side he had 6 flutes.
2. On the back side of one of the doors the mortise and tenon was sanded thru in one spot.
3. One of the locks on one of the small drawers was mounted upside down.
Needless to say, they were very dissappointed in the mistakes the master craftsman made and refused to pay him for his work…............until he took them to the original Goddard piece and showed them the same thing. ( he duplicated it exactly, including the mistakes.

BTW. That original Goodard piece then was taken to an auction and it brought the highest price ever paid for a Goddard piece.

I think we all have a little “oopserator” in us…......if we’ll admit it. lol Bill; thanks for the use of your new word.

-- John @ http://www.thehuffordfurnituregroup.com

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1220 days


#82 posted 10-30-2012 02:52 AM

Makes you wonder how WWer’s made anything with precision fit and only used handtools, which they probably made themselves.

Not really, you can be more accurate with hand tools than with power tools simply because you “creep” onto your cut line. For example imagine someone cutting a board for a tenon, he probably cut close to the line with a hand saw and then took the board to a shooting board to creep onto the line. The problem is that it takes a lot longer, it probably took a guy like this maybe 5 or 10 minutes for the finish cut, something you do with your miter saw in 10 seconds or less, but of course if your miter saw is not squared, you get the gap… :-)

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

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oldnovice

3865 posts in 2112 days


#83 posted 10-30-2012 04:42 AM

I was on a business trip to Europe and took some time to see some of the sights which included Neuschwanstein castle in Germany. In one of the rooms was some woodwork that was fantastic (they don’t allow photos) but the scroll work had to be done by hand along with the carvings. While I do not recall the number of workers and the amount of time to do this room I know that I was amazed with the result and the effort required.

Neuschwanstein not that you are going to see anything of detail

I think the same is probably true for Versailles which did have a great deal of restoration after the French Revolution!

Versailles

These are just from Europe and I assume the same thing here in the U.S.A. but just not quite as old.

The USS Constitution is one of my favorite as this ship also has to keep the sailors alive!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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