All Replies on First Project snafu.. please advise

I’d do one of two things…

Either bolt some angle iron down the length of the sides, painted white to match the door. Or, I would rip a groove in the sides (edges) and put in a metal truss (square bar). You can get either from a big box store.

If you choose angle iron, you could remove material to make the angle iron sit flush with the wood.

I cannot think of a solution without using metal at this point unless you are willing to really plane down the thickness of the door itself. That would relax the wood and perhaps solve the problem. Aluminum is an option if weight is a concern.

And, yes, there could be a huge difference in your shop environment and your home. That appears rather obvious right now.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

Not that this helps a lot, but I am having a miserable time building a table out of Ash. No matter what I do, this wood does not want to stay square.

With pieces THAT big, I would think warping is unavoidable. Since it’s painted, I probably would have saved the ash and used MDF or baltic birch plywood. I’ve never made a door (or anything that large) though. I can say that I have never seen an 83” piece of solid lumber remain perfectly straight/flat.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

BTW, you might just try pulling it down and clamping it up along its length for a while. I doubt it will remove the entire bow because of spring back, but it’ll help…especially since you’ll. have to do that to apply other solutions.

Another option is to run some eyelets in the top and bottom and cable it up with some tout airplane cable. Thus would pull door back into shape and allow you to actually hyperextend past the bow. Think of it like braces for your teeth.

Just some additional brainstorming there.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

I hear you on that, Joe. I haven’t ever worked ash, but I know that such boards work better when they are quarter sawn. That will help resist movement longitudinally. If there’s a mistake that the OP made, it’s probably that…and perhaps not building in some reinforcement.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

I like the idea of bolting angle iron to the edges and forcing it flat. It would add some architecture as well.

-- Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them.

How much trouble would it be to separate the frame from the panel? I might try pulling them apart, force the panel flat (maybe a slight bow in the opposite direction) and re-attach the frame. Another coat of paint on the frame side of the door might also help a bit.

The width of the framing is very small for such a large piece.

-- Greg D. -- the price of freedom is tolerance

I agree, Jim. I think it’d add a nice little trick.

Just because we are woodworkers I think we forget that it’s okay to use metal sometimes. Heck, last I checked nails and screws were metal!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

I also think there is a misconception that using man made materials is “cheeping out”. On extremely large pieces like this that are painted, I would definitely opt for the dimensional stability of plywood or MDF.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Cosmic’s solution is the only way, I have used the iron square trick to straighten beams.

I think the question you should ask yourself is why did it bow? Now you know your construction method was not appropriate. If I am seeing your diagram correctly, you screwed the front part to the frame, a 1.5” frame this long is not stiff enough to prevent the wood from moving, which is what happened to the front.

-- Just because you’ve always done it that way doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly stupid.

Good idea, Jonathan.

@Indianwoodchipper – If look at a bookshelf, there’s normally a face board attached to the shelve edge. The principle is to prevent the shelf from bowing under weight of the books. For tables, the apron serves the same purpose. Jonathan is advocating the same type of thing, and it adds a functional element at the same time. The maple is a heavy, stiff wood that would help bind the door in place once you have the ash straightened. The only real question is whether or not it will be enough to hold it? I would suggest that the maple needs a bit more mass than Jonathan has drawn, but the principle is solid. You could even figure a way to sandwich such a board to a piece of metal plate between the maple and the existing door. Or, for that matter, just use the plate itself.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

Hmmmm…

I wonder where the bow is coming from? It seems that the panels are a series of shorter Ash boards, edge glued to make a panel. I don’t see why those would bow. So that might indicate that the frame is the issue. So, as GregD asked, can you separate the panel from the frame? If they are just screwed to the frame and not glued, this should be doable.

What I hope you’ll find is that the panels are far less bowed than the frame – because the frame is what was pulling them into a bow. You might still have to flatten the panels by laying them flat and piling lots of weight on them for a couple weeks (IN the house), but you may find that they are still quite usable.

Which would mean you just have to replace the frame. Since its painted, MDF or birch plywood might be a good choice.

For the future (as several have pointed out), three things to watch out for are:

1. Garage is not house. Acclimate lumber to the target environment.

2. Man-made materials are more stable. For painted pieces, use man-made where practical.

3. I, too, find that Ash is unstable, especially long pieces. The greater the length, the more stable material I want to use.

-- Jim Maher, Illinois

I cut ash slabs at 2” thick and haven’t had problems with twisting. My Elm or Willow goes everywhere.

Life is a lot different in a climate controlled house over your shop.

-- Mother Nature created it, I just assemble it. - It's not ability that we often lack, but the patience to use our ability

In my humble opinion, only 1 1/2” angle iron can save this door. Your wife is the hero for originally wanting the project painted. As stated above, the steel can be hidden in any of several ways.

-- Paul, Clinton, NC

I think you have some good ideas here for a fix, but I can add some insight as to why this may have happened. Most of the boards on the door are running horizontally, with the frame boards running vertically (aka perpendicular to each other). I’m sure you’ve read about the difference in wood shrinkage/expansion across the grain compared to with the grain.

It looks to me like the humidity was higher in the house, causing the boards to swell. When this happens there is more expansion across the width of the boards than along their length. So the horizontal boards of the front swelled more in the vertical direction than the frame boards did, causing the bow.

I hope this isn’t too confusing!

-- Rex

is it a door to a shower, where one side would get steamy and moist, while the other side is dry? that could cause it to bow

-- Joel -- http://diversitywoodworks.wordpress.com

What was the moisture content in your lumber when you started? What is the temp difference between the 2 rooms your using this for? When you edged glued did you alternate the grain pattern? Looks like every board bowed perfectly with each other. Makes me think the temp and humidity between the 2 areas is severe.

my opinion on exterior doors it is best to use laminated material and veneer the outside.

Sometimes things like this just happens and you learn from them and move on and start over. Overall you did a fine job, If you want it to not be a topic for all time start over and use some laminated material in between and use 1/8 or even 1/4 thick veneer on the outside. Be nice to know what you do and how it turns out… A lot of advise was given and i am sure everyone would like to see the final outcome… Good Luck…..

-- What we do in life will Echo through Eternity........

IMHO, Rex Bair is spot on as to why this happened.

When dealing with wood or other natural products, it is important to create balanced panels. Meaning, the front and back need to have equal expansion and contraction rates. This is not the case in your door— It is an unbalanced panel.

With moisture and temperature changes, wood expands and contracts greater in width than it does in length. Even with perfectly straight boards and all the angle iron in the world, an unbalanced panel will tend to bow as yours did.

The nice thing about engineered panels, (plywood, mdf, pb.) is that they are dimensionally stable. The width and length expand and contract at equal rates. This is why such materials are preferred in large doors such at yours.

Chalk it up to a learning experience and use this experience to make a better one next time.
Best of luck to you.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

By way of clarification, you don’t have to build a door like this with engineered lumber. (Plywood, MDF, or PB)

You can build this with solid wood as long as you allow for the expansion of the respective materials. e.g. Frame and panel door construction allows the panels to float in the frame so the expansion of the panel does not affect the overall door.

Similar considerations can be made in re-designing your door to get the desired look without the expansion issue causing your door to bow.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

So, if the door is taken into the garage the bow may go
away?

Interesting.

my take is the paint

the cross boards are painted on one side
and raw on the back
the paint has brought moisture to one side
making them swell on that side
(like a dry sponge on a wet counter
it gets bigger around the dry side)

just a thought

hope you resolve soon
it is a nice door

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

If I’m correct, taking it to the same humidity as when it was assembled would make the bow go away. Taking it to an environment with even lower humidity would actually cause it to bow in the opposite direction. This could even happen with seasonal changes over the course of the year if the door was left where it is.

-- Rex

Wow! Thanks for the support guys this is quite an education. This forum rocks so do all of you…

I will try and answer all the points/questions raised so far and apologize if I missed your question

• This is an interior door to my son’s – to be new room. No excessive water or moisture on one side only. BTW the panel side is bowing outwards and the frame side has “shrunk”
• I am disappointed with myself since I thought the paint job would “seal” the moisture IN or OUT and not have to worry about this
• Thanks for the explanation regarding expansion along the width of the board vs the length on the frame
• Also I do see your point on perhaps needing a beefier frame
• Both sides are painted & so are the edges
• I also did alternate the grains on most of the panels since I thought this would help.. not all the panels though. Could that be adding to this?
• I do not have a moisture meter & did not measure anything before or after
• I did consider ¾ Baltic birch for the door & only make the inlay panel out of Ash BUT I read in one of these forum that plywood of this dimension, left free hanging would become a ‘potato chip’ in no time

NEXT STEPS—Solution/Question
• I am leaning towards, letting it lay flat in the house with weights. Maybe attaching angle irons & painting over.
• Would you guys recommend putting the iron on the frame side or on the side of the panels which are bowing out
• Instead of an angle .. Should I use flat bar-stock on both sides – use my router to make a groove to recess the bars & put a few bolts through both bars. Make a bar stock sandwich. This might also go with the look of the hardware if I painted the bar stock black?
• Would Aluminum bar stock do the trick? Trying to keep the weight down

thanks again for the support and encouragement to the new guy

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

We recently took in a table top made from 6/4 solid oak planks. It was 36” wide X 48” long.

The layup was perfect – the grain was alternated every 4 inches or so. Everything was fine, except…
They had only finished the top and edges—The underside was left RAW.

With time, moisture escaped from the raw side and it shrank relative to the front. (This is in Arizona where the outside air is typically dryer than the wood moisture content. Your neighborhood may have the opposite issue.) The result was a 1” bow over the length of the top.

We had to re-cut and re-alternate the planks so that, as the moisture stabilized, the new expansion would cancel out over time and the top would remain relatively flat. We finished both sides for them as well.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

The only problem I see with bar stock or angle iron is that they are trying to fix a cyclic problem. That bow will come and go with the seasons, and it may even bow the other direction. On the other hand, you have a lot of experienced woodworkers backing up those solutions, so I may be completely wrong to doubt them.

If you do try using angle iron or bar stock, go fairly beefy and use a lot of thru-bolts. In this respect I like your “bar stock sandwich” idea. IMO using aluminum would not be a good idea. Make your bolt holes tight and crank down on those bolts. Maybe even use spring washers to avoid the bolts loosening if the wood shrinks a bit in thickness.

I’ve got some experience engineering composite materials, and wood behaves very much like a composite.

-- Rex

@Indianwoodchipper – Be careful with one assumption. Sealing something with paint or finish might keep liquid moisture out, but not water vapor (which is what humidity is). Some finishes are more impermeable than others, such as shellac, but just about anything can be warped by humidity if severe enough. Latex house paint does almost nothing to stop humidity, even though it is very impermeable to water. In other words, the boards on your house can still swell due to humidity, but still wick away destructive water.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

Properly designed, this door will not excessively warp or bow with the seasons.

I recognize the desire of not wanting to start over with this project, but, you might put in a lot of effort and still never solve the problem.

I’m not sure why the boards on one side are laid horizontally under a layer of paint. Does the grain show through or have some other significance to the design? Why couldn’t both sides have the frame and panel look with the center stile? This would be a balanced panel then and no more issues, (related to this at least).

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

I think the angle iron can solve his dilemma. Wood can be coerced to your will, it just doesn’t like it very much. But, at best, this fix buys him time. You can have arrow-straight stiles, but that will not tame the central panel. It’s got a mind of its own.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

Oh, so familiar! I made a door a number of years ago; it was not that large out of fir but it just didn’t warp it twisted. This was a door to a company exhibit and fortunately, the door was normally closed, except for service and adding a number of cables to the back side resolved the issue. I STILL DID NOT LIKE IT, BUT NO OTHER CHOICE!

The finger pulls idea is interesting but I would use aluminum channel. Cut reliefs on both sides of the door to accomodate channel 1/8” thick x 3/4” x 3/4” x 3/4” and either make it decorative with a high polish and lacquer or prime it and paint to match the door.

That’s my story and I am sticking to it!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

I definitely second the “start over”. If you are going to paint it, grab a sheet of MDF. Either float the panels or use thicker frames. Strip the paint of that ash, chop it up and make some nice end table’s for the baby-to-be’s room.

It was straight when you finished it, right? That wood just doesn’t want to be flat in the configuration you have it in. The iron/some kind of metal is a good idea, but I like the aesthetic you are going for and I think that will detract a bit.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

FWIW The door may have warped because you leave it open and one side is against the wall and the opposite side loses/gains moisture more quickly causing the warp. Try keeping the door closed so both sides are exposed to see if that makes any improvement. HTH

-- Art

Thanks again guys. As ever the decision to be made is whether I try salvaging or give up & go the MDF with veneer route :-(

Cosmicsniper – did not know that regarding finishes. Much to learn here.
DS251 – do you think re-doing the design with the panels floating within rail-stile grooves will let the wood expand & prevent bowing?
Old Novice – do you mean a “U” channel of 1/8” thickness to ‘cap’ the edges?
RexBair – good idea on the spring washers

So I have sketched the to two salvage concepts… one with U channels at the edges (which might bow in the middle??) shown by dotted lines
OR the flat bar stock sandwich at 1/3 & 2/3 of the width of the door

You guys have been supportive beyond belief. Thanks again

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

I believe that is why we are all here, many of us are not pros and we all make mistakes!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

LOTS of mistakes. But those make you a lot better at this stuff.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

No problem.

BTW, one of the better articles you’ll ever read regarding moisture content and humidity is here. This one even shows a picture of what happened to your door. Look at the batten door over midway through the article…

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2010/09/03/moisture-content-wood-movement/

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

before you put patches on your project try one thing. put it on some saw horses with some weight (lumber , bricks , blocks) and let a little time do the trick. have done this before with a warped table top. it worked pretty well

-- haste makes firewood.

The panels have taken on moisture and expanded across the grain (top to bottom) . They should have had the same finish on both sides. Just like a table tOP. you will have to remove the panels. Finish them on both sides and re attach them with screws through sloted holes. I dont think angle iorn will be strong enough to win the battle with expanding wood. The angle iorn would be a good idea after you have solved the expanding wood problem. Your frame is realy not strong enough for that large a door. MHO nils

-- Nils, So. Central MI. Wood is honest.Take the effort to understand what it has to tell you before you try to change it.

If you do go the route of starting over, to keep the weight down, try building a torsion box. 1/4” thick MDF panels separated with a stick frame. The MDF is very stable and building it as a torsion box will help even further.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

Thanks guys. For next time, what would you recommend as a good finish to seal it well. Someone recommended ‘shellac’ does regular polyurethan do a decent job?

BTW do you think Ash lumber is more prone to problems? I have some Ash leftover hence the question

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

Shellac, poly, lacquer…you can finish it with any film finish…they’ll all provide a better protection against humidity than paint. I especially like shellac for applications like that door since its unlikely you’ll set a drink on it.

It’s probably less about the ash and more about how you constructed the panel. The stiles could have been solid ebony and they’d probably still have bowed. Make your panel(s) float and keep your grain directions the same.

Plywood and MDF are 10 times more resistant to movement than solid wood. I’d probably use that, especially if you have to use paint.

Rance’s idea of a torsion box design is excellent. Most doors are similarly constructed to keep down weight yet retain strength and stability.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

Thanks Jay. Appreciate your time.
Actually I did read a FWW article about someone building a torsion box dining table and was wondering if I should go that route :-) hindsight hindsight
I had lumber and was itching to plane & joint some rough lumber so jumped into this project instead of asking folks what would work.

oh well … live and learn

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

Learn indeed. That’s what it’s all about.

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

There are a lot of good opinions here, and there are certainly many different ways to skin this cat.

Because your horizontal slats are attached to the front frame, the frame didn’t allow that side to expand like the back side did. This caused the bow.

To be balanced, the horizontal slats could be sandwiched in between two frames, but, this has the potential drawback that if, (when) the boards shrink, and they are attached to the frames which won’t shrink in that direction, the panel would form a crack in it. (Something has to give.)

Ideally, yes, the panels would float inside the groove of a thick frame. Any bowing or warping at that point might only be from unstable wood and not normal expansion and contraction.

Because your panel is already deformed, you may have to take it apart to flatten it. You can buy 6/4 lumber for the frame then dado the edges to make a groove big enough for your panel to live happily inside it.

My 2 cents

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

If you alternated the grain on your glue up, and screwed the panel to the frame, you might be able to save this.
It looks to me that the reason you have such a perfect curve is the panel has swollen and has nowhere to go but in an arc because it is screwed to the stiles which won’t move. The framing is only on one side as well so it’s not balanced (though looking at it, if panels were floating and expanded that much they would have bust the top and bottom rail out).
If it’s possible, could you take the panel off the door frame, and just make a new door frame that will allow the panel(s) to float? – leaving plenty of space to allow for seasonal wood movement. I think the panel will flatten out once it’s removed from the framing.
It’s a shame that happened on your first job, because you made a great looking door.
A friend always used to tell me “it gets easier after the first hundred jobs”

-- Do or do not, there is no try

Thanks for the advice guys. I am tempted to undo the frame before letting it recover…since I agree the direction of bowing tends to support the observation that the panels are expanding but the frame isn’t allowing a balanced expansion

The only issue (if there can be only one :-)) is I was super conservative & used screws for every panel, countersunk the screws and even hammered in some round oak dowel pegs to keep the holes hidden and them sanded them flush L

Will have to sand the frame, find the hole locations, drill the peg out and unscrew the srews… but I also used Titebond glue between the frame & all the panels. So what should I do? How do I separate the two without damaging the panels? Handsaw?

Lost cause?

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

Also would the panel edges need to be routed to make tenon like inserts which will sit within the frame? Woudn’t the shoulder of these tenons have the same expansion problem? Or is the expansion more along the width as Jay mentioned instead of the length so this may not be an issue?

Any links images or sketches online etc of how to make the floating concept you guys describe would be much appreciated.

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

Your frame size will be dependent on the clearance of that sliding gear and the thickness of the panel. You could beef up the door frame as well by bringing it into the point of the triangles. If there’s space, I would make the frame thickness 6/8” thicker than the panel – 3/8 – P – 3/8. You are basically just cutting a slot (3/8 – 1/2’/ on the inside of the stiles and rails and muntin and mortise and tenon it. If you are making a beefier frame, you could just cut the frame off and resize the panel. If you want to go at it a bit more gingerly, take the most part off with a router and then just knock off the remainder with a hammer. (Take all the screws out first).

-- Do or do not, there is no try

How dry was your lumber? I think your panel shrunk and since it was screwed to the frame it did what wood does. Ideally the panel would ‘float’ in the frame so the movement would not affect the entire door. But that is water under the bridge. Try unscrewing the panel from the frame. You may have to add a little material to the panel. If you can get the frame to straighten. You may have gotten lucky as it shrunk and did not swell. I have a query, how did you get a door 1.5” from 4/4 lumber?

-- Made in America, with American made tools....Shopsmith

How dry was your lumber? I think your panel shrunk and since it was screwed to the frame it did what wood does. Ideally the panel would ‘float’ in the frame so the movement would not affect the entire door. But that is water under the bridge. Try unscrewing the panel from the frame. You may have to add a little material to the panel. If you can get the frame to straighten. You may have gotten lucky as it shrunk and did not swell.
I would also ditch the frame. Then build a frame with a groove so the panel can float in the frame. With a panel of that size, I would expect about 1/2” of movement during a year.
Keep us posted on your fix. Good Luck. It is all just a giant learning process….for all of us.

-- Made in America, with American made tools....Shopsmith

Renners – thanks for the input. I am not Sketchup savvy yet so here is an drawing of what I think you mean. Believe you mean the 2nd option?

JumboJack – i purchased kiln dried Ash and did not have a moisture meter to check anything. As far as your query..the 4/4 became 3/4 and the frame also ended up close to 3/4 hence the total = 3/2. Sorry I should have specified I included the total thickness since 1 5/8 is the max the hardware would allow

You mention 1/2” movement… Whats the ideal gap at each edge for a door this size? is there a rule of thumb like a 1/16 for every foot? would be useful as a future reference

-- With ambitions always far exceeding my skill

IWC, yes, option 2, though the frame needs to be wider (not a c section as you have in the drawing), say 3”. So if your panel is 3/4 you could make the thickness of the stiles and rails 6/4 – 3/8 – P(3/4) – 3/8. If you need more room between the door and wall could you shim the sliding gear out?

-- Do or do not, there is no try