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Another Dust Collection Question

by harriw
posted 09-26-2012 03:37 AM


33 replies so far

View Lifesaver2000's profile

Lifesaver2000

517 posts in 1777 days


#1 posted 09-26-2012 03:46 AM

I just saw a post on another forum that the current issue of Wood Magazine has a coupon good for $149 on that DC unit. It was a Wood magazine coupon that got the price down to $139 in the past. They sell Wood Magazine at Home Depot, so you might check through it there and make sure it has it before you buy the magazine (I haven’t seen it myself, just read about it in another post).

It is up to you if it is worth the trouble and cost of a magazine to save that extra $11 (plus sales tax I suppose).

View Cole Tallerman's profile

Cole Tallerman

391 posts in 850 days


#2 posted 09-26-2012 03:50 AM

Ask someone on here for the wood magazine $150 coupon code. Not much of a difference but oh well. The 5 micron is actually pretty good. I have the hf and although its not in my shop, no noticeable dust escapes. Some dust collectors come with 30 micron bags! with 5 micron, that means that some particles will escape. a 5 micron bag will also stop some .5 micron particles but they can only guarantee down to 5 micron. Buy it and when money allows, go for the canister.

View DIYaholic's profile

DIYaholic

13620 posts in 1340 days


#3 posted 09-26-2012 04:00 AM

Buy the collector now:
1) Before the price goes up again.
2) The collector WILL be better than the Shop-Vac.
3) Ducting and connectors can be bought as needs arise.

Just my $0.02
BTW, I have the HF 2HP DC with the Wynn 35A NANO canister filter.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procratination a bad thing?

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#4 posted 09-26-2012 04:22 AM

Thanks guys – I’ll stop by Lowes and HD and see if they have Wood on the rack (I wouldn’t mind having another rag to flip through anyway).

My only other hold-up is that I AM wondering if the HF will be sufficient for me when I move to the basement, or if I should hold out for a true 2HP Grizzly (or something similar). I can get away with dirtier air in the garage since I can open up the big door to purge. Once I’m down in the basement though, I’ll be relying on my machines (I’m assuming the main work-horse dust collector, and a ceiling-mounted air cleaner) to keep the air clean for me. Both shops are right around the 400 sq-ft mark, but I won’t really have access to 220V until I’m in the basement. For $150, I’m thinking my best bet might be to go with the HF for now, and I can always sell it on craigslist and upgrade if necessary whenever I move downstairs (I’m guessing a Wynn 35A would probably fit on a Grizzly 2HP too, so I could re-use that as well).

Can anybody comment on using 6” ducts with the HF model? I’m worried about a.) overloading the motor, and b.) whether the corresponding drop in air velocity in the 6” duct will be enough to let dust fall out of suspension and pile in the ducts.

Thanks again everyone!

-- Bill - Western NY

View woodforge's profile

woodforge

3 posts in 775 days


#5 posted 09-26-2012 04:33 AM

Hi Bill, I see you are a fellow WNY-er :-)

I went through many of the same issues when I started buying tools. Most of the money seemed used up by the time dust collection was thought about. I am very careful with my money except when it comes to tools and my safety. With having a large door you can open, that helps unless it is 20 below and snowing. I had a Jet 650 and upgraded the bags, tried different lines, and finally gave up. Most of the time I didn’t use it because it was either full or the bags were dirty and basically it was a pain.

My recommendations;
- The cheapest option is buy a box of good quality dust masks and use them. I never got the formed masks that look like a boob to work right with my beard and found the newer fold-up 3M masks to work great.
- If you are using a shop vac, upgrade it with a $39 Dust Deputy cyclone and save up for a real system.
- Sell some more projects and ask Santa for cash. Then go visit Oneida Air over in Syracuse. If he has time, the owner Robert is great to talk too. He has a background in industrial hygiene and knows the effects of long term exposure to contaminants.

Hope this helps. If you do get to Syracuse, tell Robert I said “hi” :-)

- Ed

View Lifesaver2000's profile

Lifesaver2000

517 posts in 1777 days


#6 posted 09-26-2012 04:39 AM

There are a lot of discussion threads about pipe sizing, the HF dust collector and separators over on the Thien forum:

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?board=1.0

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

1816 posts in 1158 days


#7 posted 09-26-2012 11:03 AM

I’ll offer this, having lived with a 5 micron nag for a year some time back. If your concern is health…I think the 5 micron filter on a DC is worse than nothing. What it does is put the most dangerous particles back into the air much more efficiently than any of the source tools. In my case the coating of dust that forms over those hidden areas over time changed to those much finer particles and got noticeably thicker than it did before the DC. Once I noticed that, I bought new bags that were much tighter. That said, in a garage with the door open it may dissipate to the outdoors, making it a manageable situation. But in a basement I would think it will eventually work it’s way into the house (never had a basement shop, no experience). So try it yourself in the garage, but be sure to tighten it up before moving to the basement.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6942 posts in 1579 days


#8 posted 09-26-2012 11:12 AM

”...So which do you think is worse… no dust collection at all (other than a shop vac for a ROS), or a dust collector with poor final filtration that spits back out the tiny stuff?...”

You know that even a “poor” filter gets better with use don’t you. As some of the dust cakes up on the inside of the bag/filter, the filtration increases. So bottom line is to buy the REAL DC unit. Also, I built Thien separators for both my main DC unit and my shopvac that I dedicated for my mitersaw. On the shopvac I also added a hepa filter. Very little dust makes it to the shopvac canister as most ends up in the 30gal separator can.

RE: the basement—Only my opinion here, but IMO using a basement for a shop is a major trade off and is much more limiting than in a garage environment. The basement is probably the most “convenient” use of space but not the most “efficient” use of space. I am thinking gas furnaces and flammable dust in the air. But this is just my opinion and I know that many others will say otherwise, but if you have the opportunity for working in a standalone shop environment like a converted garage then I don’t think you would regret it.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#9 posted 09-26-2012 11:27 AM

Thanks again for all the input!

HorizontalMike – I hear what you’re saying, and would much prefer to be in the garage, all things being equal. But the garage also has to store my garden tractor, lawn mower, snow blower, ladders, various yard tools, kids sports equipment, bikes, etc., etc., etc. The garage also serves as the “autobody shop” when its time for oil changes, brake jobs, etc. It reaches the point that I have no wall space to park a took against because no matter where I go, I’m blocking something. And it’s COLD out there in the winter :)

My thought was that if I move the wood shop to the basement, I can dedicate that space 100% to wood working and not have to share it with all the other tasks mentioned above. As you point out though, it’s not exactly ideal mainly because of the dust issue. I do think I’d put up a wall to try to contain the dust to the shop area (and away from the boiler, hot water tank, and general storage). Can’t get dust all over the wife’s Christmas decorations…

My original plan was to build a large shed in the backyard for all the yard stuff, freeing up the garage. But I’m looking at around $4k to do that. The basement is already there, and I could setup a pretty nice shop down there for half of that.

Thanks again!

-- Bill - Western NY

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1034 days


#10 posted 09-26-2012 12:23 PM

Bill, just a couple of thoughts for you. Any cyclone system will work better than a regular DC (per FWW article maybe a year ago), and this will become more of an issue in a basement. I’ve got a basement shop. I think once you move down there you’ll be wanting pretty good dust control, so spending money now might not give you equipment you’re happy with later.

While you’re in the garage, can you vent the dust outside? If so, that’s the way to go; use a DC and vent outdoors.

Overall I think a poor filtering DC is worse than nothing, as it constantly stirs up the air and puts the fine (most damaging) particles back in the air.

If I were you I think I would use a good dust mask in the garage (and keep the doors open with an exhaust fan whenever possible), skip the DC (unless you can vent outside), and save for some type of cyclone system for your move to the basement.

-- John

View crank49's profile

crank49

3442 posts in 1636 days


#11 posted 09-26-2012 12:30 PM

The HF coupon for the 2 hp DC for $149 is in virtually every issue of Wood Magazine, Popular Woodworking and several other magazines every month. There is no reason to pay more.

I find the HF DC just fine with its 5 micron bag. That’s collecting as much dust as your Shop Vac, unless you have the HEPA filter option on it. The Wynn cartridge is a worthwhile option for sure.

Another option, and better in my opinion, is a shop air filter, either homemade or purchased. These units make virtually no noise and can run all the time you are in the shop and the 1/6 to 1/3 hp fan will not break the bank. The Dust Collector would drive you nuts running all the time, Not to mention the boost to your electric bill.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View woodforge's profile

woodforge

3 posts in 775 days


#12 posted 09-26-2012 01:02 PM

There is this misconception that using an air filter in the shop is going to help with dust collection and protect your lungs. The bottom line is to capture the dust AND particulates as close to the source as possible. Anything in the sub-5 micron level could take hours to settle and “stirring up” the air with a cleaner doesn’t let those particles settle, rather will keep them in the air. Unless you are planning on keeping your head near the output of the air filter, you will not see the benefit. I made a filter with all the top of line filters and my old 4-speed furnace fan. It seemed to work for a short time but when the filters start to get full, air flow is significantly decreased. I am considering taking it out and filling the space with drawers which will keep the dust off my better tools better than any air cleaner.

Like I said before, use the mask for now and save for a cyclone when you move…

I don’t believe in using a DC and air filter and wouldn’t spend a dime on one. I think eventually, you will find the dam thing.

View crank49's profile

crank49

3442 posts in 1636 days


#13 posted 09-26-2012 01:13 PM

The key is correct design of a filter. Commercial wood processing shops very often incorporate filters to improve the air quality for the workers. True the fine dust will not settle if it is stirred up. That’s why the filter should have capacity to filter all the air in the space up to 6 times an hour.

I am an engineer and have designed pollution control equipment and systems for 40 years.
I gave you my opinion earlier so I will not repeat myself.

Cyclones, by the way, can be way less efficient than the 5 micron bag filters if they are not properly designed as well.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6942 posts in 1579 days


#14 posted 09-26-2012 01:13 PM

I have now seen the comment of something to the effect of “A poor DC filter is worse than none IMO” a number of times now. Please consider the following from a “good” filter company. Even a “good” filter company(Wynn in this case), fully admits that filters actually NEED a break-in time to develop better filtering. This is because all filters do accumulate/cake with use, and it is advantageous that this process occurs. What this means is that even a 5.0micron filter will filter better than 5.0microns after sufficient break-in. In other words, do not under rate that stock filter bag on your cheap HF DC unit, because it gets better and better at filtering over time.

And BTW, I use a Thien separator on mine as well.

”...We get occasional calls about our posted 99.99% efficiency, as it compares to the ASHRAE 52.2 test standard.
The chart below shows the Particle Size Efficiency of a filter made from our 80/20 blend, based on the ASHRAE 52.2 test standard. The numbers just below the chart (beginning with 0.35) are the particle size “geometric mean”, in microns.
As you can see, these filters test very well, but the results do not indicate the 99.99% at 0.5 micron rating that we have given to our 80/20 blend. This is because the ASHRAE 52.2 test standard is not designed for round pleated cartridge filters. More importantly, it is not designed for cleanable filters. It was actually designed to test flat disposable HVAC filters, so the resulting data needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The ASHRAE 52.2 test does not give a true indication of what a user should expect to see from their dust collection filter…it can only tell you what the filter will do when it is brand new.
Background info and further explanation:

-ASHRAE 52.2 requires a minimum face velocity of 118 fpm. This equates to over 1100 cfm on our Farr style filters! We never push these filters past about 750 cfm, and normally run them at about 500 cfm, so the 52.2 test pushes them way beyond their intended flow rating. ASHRAE 52.2 gives all cartridge filters (not just ours) an unfairly low indication of the true as-installed efficiency. ...”
More info here

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View WoodWorkWarrior's profile

WoodWorkWarrior

46 posts in 738 days


#15 posted 09-26-2012 01:54 PM

I made the upgrade early this year from shop vac to a Grizzly 2HP DC. Definitely worth it. I have a garage shop that I usually use with the garage doors open. The DC certainly keeps the dust down (and my wife’s car a lot cleaner!) I have the 5 micron bag, and per the comments above I think it’s broken in now and does better than that. MDF cuts produce ultra fine particles and used to make a huge mess – much better now with a DC. Also have a trash can separator that helps with the cleanup because I don’t have to take the DC bag off.

One day I’ll step up to a 3HP cyclone or better, but until money is falling out of my pockets, I’ll keep what I have and it works well.

-- Jason

View AandCstyle's profile

AandCstyle

1333 posts in 922 days


#16 posted 09-26-2012 02:59 PM

Just a couple thoughts that haven’t been mentioned as yet:
1. Watch Craigslist for used DC. I’ve seen some pretty good deals on Oneida equipment there. Here is the search I used, “site:craigslist.org oneida dust”. I bet that between Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse you will find something.
2. Locate the DC outside the shop in its own shed if you can. This will require you to have a means for replacing the exhausted air, but your lungs will thank you.
3. People always talk about the cost of the DC and don’t mention or think about the cost of the tubing, fittings, etc. In my experience, the DC is about half of the total cost so you need to be aware of that and plan accordingly.
4. Oneida is a great resource even if you don’t purchase a system from them, although there may be a nominal charge in that case. As was mentioned, go to Syracuse and talk with them. I was ready to purchase a new DC, but after talking with Robert Kick, an Oneida customer service technician, I found that I only needed to reconfigure my 6” tubing and replace 4” flexible tubing with 5”.
HTH

-- Art

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#17 posted 09-26-2012 05:21 PM

Well… I could leave the DC in the garage, and pipe it down in the basement, since they “share a wall.” Problems with that are 1.) the DC would be a level above the shop and would have to pull all that dust up hill, and 2.) I’d be sucking air back out of the basement that would need to be replaced somehow (don’t want to be pulling it back in through the boiler and hot water tank’s exhaust, not to mention the heat loss in the winter time).

If I could sort that out, What sort of performance hit could I expect due to having the DC a level above the shop?

Thanks!

-- Bill - Western NY

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1034 days


#18 posted 09-26-2012 06:04 PM

Bill, you could put the DC unit in the basement and vent the exhaust up to the garage. however, you do have the issues with replacing the air that you mentioned; exhausting all that heated air in the middle of a NY winter would be expensive. Once you get into the basement I still recommend a cyclone with a high MERV filter. I went with a standard DC and just replaced it; wish I had saved the money and just started with the cyclone; but I didn’t know at the time.

-- John

View John's profile

John

45 posts in 738 days


#19 posted 09-26-2012 06:19 PM

I think the level issue (uphill) is not a problem except for the biggest densest chunks, but the long run of pipe up to the DC will add friction losses and decrease flow, which is the sort of thing that leads Bill Pentz to insist on a monster blower and 6” ducts.

I use a small 1.5hp Jet DC with a pleated filter, fed by a ~8’ length of 4” flex hose.. I put four swivel casters on it and move it to whatever machine I’m using. Working that way, I get high air flow because I’m not wasting energy with fittings and ports etc. It’s a small collector, so it’s easy to move this way, and I can push it into a corner when I need the space. I have a cramped shop. It works well. I borrowed a $10k particle counter from work and checked my basement. I was amazed to discover that the dust levels were fine, and more importantly that they didn’t increase when I fired up the DC. I’ve since added a Thien style separator before the DC, but that’s more for the convenience of chip collection. You can see it at http://madebyjohn.blogspot.com/2011/11/my-thien-dust-collector.html

As for your original question about DC with a bag vs. no DC… It’s probably a wash. You’ll only know if you’re filling your lungs and house with tiny particles if you use a trustworthy filter, or if you get a particle counter capable of detecting them. The amount of dust that you see on surfaces isn’t much of an indicator.

View gfadvm's profile

gfadvm

10974 posts in 1355 days


#20 posted 09-27-2012 03:11 AM

In my opinion, the smartest thing I did was put my dust collector in a separate room adjacent to my shop. I don’t have to listen to it, it doesn’t take up room in my shop, and fine dust that makes it through the cannister is outside my shop space. The issue of pumping heated air out of the shop is valid but I rationalize this by considering that the dust collector is not running all the time. I only turn it on when I need it. It does run continuously for long periods when I am sanding. Just wanted to comment. By the way I have the largest 110 volt Grizz with the pleated filter and a shop made chip separator. I have4” runs of PVC and my longest is 20’ from the chip separator.

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2846 posts in 1908 days


#21 posted 09-30-2012 07:04 PM

There is a product on the market called the “Rainbow” vacuum cleaner. It has been around for many years . It works by creating a whirlpool of water which traps the fine dust. It has been used in hospitals and clean rooms where dust cannot be tolerated. It doesn’t create any back pressure like a conventional filter will. They are small, but they might also make larger units. Worth checking out. Otherwise, the best alternative is exhausting the dust directly to the outdoors and eliminating filters all together, if local neighborhood conditions permit. Mine goes directly outdoors. I live on an 8 acre piece of land in a rural area.

Oh BTW, filters do not improve as they load up. They obstruct free air flow and causes the motor to work harder. This slows down the air flow but dust still gets through. As a test, turn on the DC in the dark and with a flashlight notice the amount of dust that comes through the filter illuminated by the light beam. Even HEPA filters will let some fine dust get through. It may only be 5 micron, but it’s still dust.

View toolie's profile

toolie

1764 posts in 1293 days


#22 posted 10-05-2012 07:22 PM

in the meantime, try this enhancement to your single stage DC:

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/40189

fast, easy cheap and tremendously effective.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View Murdock's profile

Murdock

107 posts in 1149 days


#23 posted 10-05-2012 07:45 PM

I looked into the rainbow vacs a while back, on their own website they refer to the water as catching the larger particles, the fine stuff is still handled by a hepa filter.

Flters do improve the level of filtration as they load up, they alsorestrict the flow of air more as they load up. A 5 micron filter may load enough to become hepa level but with most filters you won’t get enough airflow to get the dust effectively into the system. That is where the surface area becomes important.

I just always wonder about what I am doing to my health while I wait for the filter to season…

-- "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#24 posted 10-06-2012 04:31 PM

Hey guys,

Just thought I’d give a quick update… After spending some time in the basement with a tape measure, we decided a shop in the basement was going to either be too small to be practical, or was going to leave the remaining storage area too small for the stuff it needs to hold.

So, for I’ll be out in the garage for the forsee-able future, and will (hopefully) be building a good-sized storage shed this summer to free up some of the garage space currently used to store the tractor, lawn mower, snow blower, etc.

Since I’ll be staying in the garage where I DO have the ability to open up the main garage door, I figured a simple single-stage DC will do just fine for now. I grabbed the HF “2HP” collector (with the coupon from “Wood” – thanks for the tip!), and will be starting in on running lines to the various tools this weekend. For now I’m going to keep a few fans out there to help blow the fine suspended stuff out the front door, but I think an “air scrubber” type filter will be in my near future as well.

Toolie – I’d looked at quite a few HF mods, but hadn’t come across that one – I might have to give that a try once I get myself a canister filter for it. Thanks for the tip!

Thanks all for your suggestions!

-Bill

-- Bill - Western NY

View teejk's profile

teejk

1215 posts in 1349 days


#25 posted 10-06-2012 05:51 PM

bill…good call on the basement…getting materials in and out only teaches you how to do drywall repair…and then you have the SWMBO issue as well (she’s watching DWTS while you have a router running). BTDT…

I personally am getting tired of chasing dust (and I’m convinced that radiant infloor heat is creating little cyclones that make it travel further). Right now I’m thinking about 2 or more portable units as opposed to a fixed system with ducting. My shop is multi-functional to service lawn/garden/snow equipment as well as woodworking. Other than the drill press, all tools are on wheels. Gives me flexibility that way that I can’t get with a fixed DC system.

View GerryB's profile

GerryB

44 posts in 1247 days


#26 posted 10-06-2012 06:36 PM

I just ordered that DC, and found it a bit different than I thought. The 20% coupon cna only be used on items at full price ( it’s in the fine print) so it comes out to $149 + shipping. It’s sitll a good price for a unit that is supposedly quite a bit better than the previous 1 1/2 horse unit.\
GerryB

-- The pursuit of excellence is gratifying and healthy. The pursuit of perfection is frustrating, neurotic, and a terrible waste of time. Edwin Bliss

View GerryB's profile

GerryB

44 posts in 1247 days


#27 posted 10-06-2012 06:38 PM

Eat a live toad every morning, and the rest of your day will definitely get better!

-- The pursuit of excellence is gratifying and healthy. The pursuit of perfection is frustrating, neurotic, and a terrible waste of time. Edwin Bliss

View teejk's profile

teejk

1215 posts in 1349 days


#28 posted 10-06-2012 07:47 PM

what do you wash those toads down with? vodka?

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#29 posted 10-06-2012 08:40 PM

Yup, I was a bit worried about dust getting in the house (even more so than it does now from the attached garage) too. Our house is old enough (mid 60’s) that the subfloor isn’t plywood, but solid wood planking perpendicular to the hardwood flooring. leaves lots of tiny gaps the dust could have escaped through. And as you stated, the garage is a lot more conducive to keeping SWMBO happy.

I think I’m gonna order one of those dust-right flex-hose kits with the floor vac attachment once my wallet recovers from the DC/ducting purchase. That just looks WAY too handy for cleaning up what the DC misses. I can also see it being handy for hooking up incidental stuff like a downdraft table, machines you rarely use, etc. Anyone tried one of those?

-- Bill - Western NY

View riverguy's profile

riverguy

91 posts in 729 days


#30 posted 10-06-2012 09:23 PM

I’ve been using a Jet 1.5 HP dust collector with the filter bag and a ceiling-mounted Jet AFS1000B filter with three-speeds and remote control in my 450 sq ft shop for about 5 years now and it works very well. For the total price of around $700, it’s hard to beat. The ceiling-mounted unit catches the fines in the air that the dust collector misses. I also use a small (12”) wall-mounted portable fan to direct the dust coming from my belt sander away from my face and toward the ceiling mounted filter. There’s a big hood on the down-side of the belt that is connected to the main system, but there is still always the stuff that comes off of the belt in some direction that the hood cannot capture, so the fan works well for that. I also use a shop vac to connect to other tools that i don’t use every day, like a spindle sander and the smaller of my bandsaws, both of which are on wheeled stands. For sure, there are better systems, but if you’re on a budget (as most of us are!), this one has changed my work environment from one buried in dust to a pretty clean one.

I also use a vortex lid on top of a 30-gallon galvanized trash can that’s in the main system right before the collector, and it is indispensable. It catches the bulk of the dust from the shop, is easy to empty and means I need empty the collector bag only about once a month.

-- Skip, Forestville, CA, http://www.sonomastainedglass.com

View toolie's profile

toolie

1764 posts in 1293 days


#31 posted 10-07-2012 05:40 PM

harriw …..... just to be clear, that modification is in no way dependent on the DC having a canister filter. it will work just as well with a bag filter.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

View Knothead62's profile

Knothead62

2364 posts in 1626 days


#32 posted 10-08-2012 11:17 PM

teejk, the vodka comes first so you will have the nerve to eat the toad. Wait a minute, what does this have to do with a DC system?

View harriw's profile

harriw

86 posts in 872 days


#33 posted 10-08-2012 11:46 PM

”Wait a minute, what does this have to do with a DC system?”

Well…. I suppose having a toad sucked into your DC would be almost as unpleasant as eating one…? Though the vodka would certainly help.

At the pool I lifeguarded at as a teenager, we were constantly finding frogs stuck in the filter intakes. They’d get wrapped around the grate, and the suction would literally suck all their “guts” to their extremeties. Not terribly pleasant….

No idea what that has to do with DC Systems either :)

-- Bill - Western NY

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