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View Jordan's profile

Okay I'm dumb but I need to ask something

by Jordan
posted 09-07-2012 05:45 PM


35 replies so far

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

3360 posts in 1466 days


#1 posted 09-07-2012 05:52 PM

Amps is the typical measure of an electric motors strength. Even the difference between my 2.2 amp and 3.0 amp sanders is significant.

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View MrUnix's profile (online now)

MrUnix

505 posts in 852 days


#2 posted 09-07-2012 05:53 PM

A lot of the better tools use electronic speed control which monitors RPM and provides power when needed to maintain speed. I have a Makita polisher with it as well as ‘soft start’ and you cannot get it to vary more than a few RPM regardless of how much pressure you apply.. that sucker will twist your arms off first. I think Dremel calls it ‘electronic feedback’ or something, but it’s the same. As for the flex wand.. most of the rotary tools today are modeled around the dremel and many parts are interchangable.. I have a kawasaki, built-tuff (northern tool) and dremel and all the parts fit each other just fine. See if that flexible wand will fit on the dremel.. you may be surprised.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

112087 posts in 2230 days


#3 posted 09-07-2012 05:55 PM

Hi Jordon
I would never call you dumb. If the one tool that is stalling id the flexible shaft tool I think it has to to with the flexible shaft, I have a Fordem flexible shaft tool and had experience the same thing even to the point that I had to replace the shaft after putting lots of pressure on it. I don’t know if this helps or not,perhaps someone else has a better answer .

-- http://artisticwoodstudio.com Custom furniture

View Kindlingmaker's profile

Kindlingmaker

2654 posts in 2180 days


#4 posted 09-07-2012 06:08 PM

Hi Jordan, Sent you an email.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

View 1stmistake's profile

1stmistake

13 posts in 825 days


#5 posted 09-07-2012 06:28 PM

Pintodeluxe is on to it… the number of wraps and size of the electric coils in the motor determine how much current can run through it. Motors with more copper wrapped into the coils can handle more amperage. More amperage leads to more torque applied to the shaft. More torque at the shaft means it can resist more torque that you apply to the end of the tool. Sounds like the dremel has a beefier motor, while the no-name comes up short. Also probably accounts for the difference in sound… more power is usually noisier in motors of that design.

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#6 posted 09-07-2012 06:32 PM

Oh that makes sense too. Darn, I was really hoping this little tool that could, could! But it just can’t.

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View reggiek's profile

reggiek

2240 posts in 1923 days


#7 posted 09-07-2012 07:32 PM

Jordan, sounds like the no name tool is not built for heavy removal. Too bad as it sounds like that tool is much more efficient.

I like my Proxon for heavy gouging (when not at my bench)....I use my dremel for metal and finish stuff as it tends to overheat so quickly. The only thing wrong with the Proxon is that it does not have the ability to use the dremel accessories – although it can use all the same burrs. On my bench I have one of the 1/2hp Mastercarver rotaries and it is excellent – I have used it to hog off metal and it won’t even slow down when I put some pretty heavy pressure on it.

-- Woodworking.....My small slice of heaven!

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#8 posted 09-07-2012 07:44 PM

Reggie, I tried the Proxxon too – the little chain, same thing, I found it just didn’t have enough oomph and I could stall the wheel. I find this little rotary tool is about the same power as the Proxxon. How many rpm does the mastercarver have?

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View crank49's profile

crank49

3421 posts in 1624 days


#9 posted 09-07-2012 07:56 PM

Guys,
There are dozens of other options for small hand held grinders, flex shaft tools and what have you. Many of them are specefic to jewelry manufacturing and I have never seen them outside of speciality supply houses.

The Foredom has been around for a very long time, has a 1/10 to 1/2 hp motor (depends on model) and a flex shaft with many different handpieces available to hold the tools. They make a handpiece with planetary gearing to get 35,000 RPM from a 10,000 RPM motor and flex shaft, for instance.

There are some German built DC powered tools that have the power of the Foredom tool but the micro motor is entirely in the handpiece; there is no flex shaft to rob power.

Dremel tools have also been around for a long time and they have profesional tools that are not offered in the usual mass market retailers.

The problem is that most of these high powered tools carry high powered price tags. Pretty easy to spend $400 to $500 for some of these. But, if I make my living setting $10,000 diamonds I can afford a precision tool that I know won’t stall or vibrate or sound like a jet engine.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#10 posted 09-07-2012 09:09 PM

I have not considered the Foredom because I did not know that they had a hand piece with the high rpm ability – but I will certainly look into that.

It’s not the cost that matters to me, I just happen to be trying out a new tool for a company and was trying to figure out why it didn’t have the same power as the noisy old Dremel – which has worked great, has been cost efficient and out run my old Foredom by about 15 years.

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View lanwater's profile

lanwater

3083 posts in 1587 days


#11 posted 09-07-2012 09:48 PM

I would love to know which one makes even half the noise of the dremmel. I would buy it.

I have a dremmel for many years and it works great but the noise could be heared from afar.
That’s why I don’t use it much.

-- Abbas, Castro Valley, CA

View Roger's profile

Roger

14562 posts in 1457 days


#12 posted 09-07-2012 11:03 PM

No way, no how, just no to dumb. The only dumb question that there could ever be was, is that coffee hot

-- Roger from KY. Work/Play/Travel Safe. Kentuk55@bellsouth.net

View LittlePaw's profile

LittlePaw

1571 posts in 1731 days


#13 posted 09-08-2012 12:21 AM

My Dremel just died on me. It;s speed dropped down noticeably to about half speed. But it would pick back up when not grinding. After a while, the switch turned itself off as soon as I turn it on!

-- LittlePAW - The sweetest sound in my shop, next to Mozart, is what a hand plane makes slicing a ribbon.

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#14 posted 09-08-2012 12:23 AM

Paul my newer ones seem to wear out motor brushes and slow down until I tighten or replace them – could that be the problem?

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2547 days


#15 posted 09-08-2012 12:43 AM

http://www.gesswein.com/c-272-wildfowl-carving-tools.aspx

The above link and picture are what many pro and amateur carvers use. It has a variable speed form 1,000 to 65,000 rpm (at least mine does ). The carving device has forward and reverse motion which is great for hair type fibers found in woods like basswood etc.,. It also has a quick release chuck and takes 2 different diameter bits being 1/8” and 3/32.

there are choices of the actual “carver” but are are small, super easy to manoeuvre and come with an old fashioned telephone type cord making them almost like a paint brush.

the actual transformer/motor above has a fuse and a “breaker” which when the the pencil is driven to hard, the breaker will trip avoiding costly repairs.

I’ve had mine for more then 10 years, and it has worked flawlessly. I personally love it.

Good Luck

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View Dark_Lightning's profile

Dark_Lightning

1715 posts in 1762 days


#16 posted 09-08-2012 12:52 AM

Noooo…dumb is NOT asking. If I ever get into power carving, the Gesswein would be the way to go. Nice! My Dremel is worn out from making auto repairs. I can’t bring myself to buy another when all this appears to need is a front bearing. Guess I’m too cheap.

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#17 posted 09-08-2012 02:33 AM

Can I back up here? Since I posted this, I looked at all of the micro motors out there. I guess what I’m asking and you know I’m not a “hobbyist” yet I still rely heavily on the Dremel and I do know that a 1/4 or 1/2hp motor has more torque(but less rpm’s) than the Dremel, but I do not know what – amps, volts etc. makes the micro motor go 35,000 yet not be able to have as much torque as the basic Dremel rotary tool – is it the hand piece, the engine, the coil shaft? I just don’t know, which is why I have always declined the Gesswein etc. and am even disappointed in this tool I’m trying, which is almost like the Foredom micro.
Inside the Gesswein, is it the same motor that is in the Dremel? How would a person know?
Sorry guys but I am really interested in a powerful tool with 35,000 and a bit quieter of a motor. I buy 3 Dremels a year at about $300 and I’ve yet to be disappointed, so perhaps I should have never looked out of my shell. LOL.

One time I bought a 14v drill and was really turned off of cordless drills – until someone introduced me to an 18v drill – THEN I KNEW. But is the volts the same with rotary tool motors?

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View gfadvm's profile

gfadvm

10861 posts in 1343 days


#18 posted 09-08-2012 02:48 AM

I’m not a carver but I have a lot of experience with air tools from my bit and spur days. The air tools developed much higher RPMs and are easy to control. They last a long time and are much cheaper and lighter than electric tools. The main downside is the need for a larger compressor. In my opinion, air tools are underutilized by woodworkers.

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2547 days


#19 posted 09-08-2012 03:17 AM

Hey Jordan

I admire your skill but do your homework.

Thats what your previous profession taught me : ))

Do you really think they would put a Dremel motor in a Gesswein box ? seriously Dude, its night and day. I blew up at least three dremels ….KABOOM. Gone, 300, 200, 100 dollars right out the window, didnt even get a chance to say good bye. Happy thoughts.

Buy once, cry once.

Explore your level of expertise. See and watch, suck it in like a sponge. There is a stratosphere of information out there you apparently missed so check out the “Ward World Championships” Google it, and if you do your homework you will find that the “Winners” of the masters division of that competition, that the majority of consistent winners have an arsenal of tools you will love.

I cant argue with the merits of air driven dental tools but

Dude

its a “no brainer”

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7715 posts in 2705 days


#20 posted 09-08-2012 03:29 AM

Jordan,

IMHO, AMPS would be the best way to compare Power from one to another… the more amps it has, the more H.P. it has… H.P. is what it takes to carve without bogging down…

If you like the more flexible cable, based on what I’ve read here, it might fit your Dremel and you would like it along with it’s POWER…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#21 posted 09-08-2012 03:32 AM

Thanks all, the conclusion I guess is better to buy and try and not ask why!

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7715 posts in 2705 days


#22 posted 09-08-2012 03:36 AM

Jordan… AMPS… get the ones that have the mostest of AMPS… = most POWER.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6957 posts in 1336 days


#23 posted 09-08-2012 03:40 AM

Buy once at ….

And use the heck out of…

both of them…

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View Moron's profile

Moron

4666 posts in 2547 days


#24 posted 09-08-2012 03:41 AM

yup

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

View Porchfish's profile

Porchfish

574 posts in 1186 days


#25 posted 09-08-2012 04:02 PM

I’m with pinto deluxe on amps ! and with Katdaddy on the use of traditional carving tools.. Go Swiss made or Cherries brand and ditch the spinning thingies ! If you live anywhere near Tallahassee Florida, stop by anytime and I’ll show you how to get the most out of hand carving tools to get you started (ha ha ! as if you would need that kind of help, I’ve seen your fantastic work !) but come by anyway talk shop & visit if you’d care to ! you are always welcome ! Don S.

-- If it smells good, eat it ! The pig caught under the fence is the one doing all thesquealing

View Grandpa's profile

Grandpa

3133 posts in 1329 days


#26 posted 09-08-2012 04:33 PM

Like GFADVM said use an air tool. They self cool and run forever. No motor to burn up. I am not sure what type work you are trying to do and I have never used a dental drill but I do have a friend that was carving in egg shells with the cheaper electric tools. He bought a dental drill and said it was like going from night to day. He had to pay more, a lot more, but he got a LOT more. Just what he told me.

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7715 posts in 2705 days


#27 posted 09-08-2012 05:13 PM

I GOOGLED Ward World Championships...

“the majority of consistent winners have an arsenal of tools you will love.”

I could NOT find this information.

Why not just say it and get it over with?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View mpounders's profile

mpounders

732 posts in 1548 days


#28 posted 09-10-2012 04:29 PM

Mastercarver makes a flexshaft tool that does 45,000 rpms and is less expensive than the foredom. The main thing with the flexshafts vs Dremel is the ability to use bigger 1/4” shaft burrs and the footpedal control. The micromotors also do 45k rpms, and have less run-out than a dremel, in addition to havinging a much smaller handpiece and a flexible small cord that is easy to work with. But they are only meant for detail work and will bog down easily if pushed to do too much. The dremel is really multipurpose in that it can do many things. I bought the flexshaft to use the bigger bits and the micromotor to do details. I seldom use my dremel much because of the large bulky handpiece, the way it tends to eat the flexshaft attachment, hand how it heats up in my hand. Wish dremel made the thing a bit smaller in the hand.

-- Mike P., Arkansas, http://mikepounders.weebly.com

View crank49's profile

crank49

3421 posts in 1624 days


#29 posted 09-10-2012 04:54 PM

I just have one bit of additional info to offer that might be relavent. Some of these tools use AC micro motors that run on high cycle inverter type power supplies. I suspect the Gesswin is probably an example.

It is possible to pack much more horsepower into a smaller package with high cycle tools. I once had an angle grinder at the foundry that looked just like all the other 7” angle grinders around. Weighed about the same and about the same size and shape. That tool was powered by a special 360 hz power supply and it generated well over 5 hp. Real HP, not the ridiculous exagerated ratings of most power tools.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#30 posted 09-10-2012 07:18 PM

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7715 posts in 2705 days


#31 posted 09-10-2012 09:12 PM

WOW!

That looks like it will do a wonderful job for you!

Lots of RPM and Power!

Quiet… you can hardly hear it… Will have to be very careful!

You should be able to use it for hours and never get tired or cramped while using it.

A first class product at a first class price!

Jordan, enjoy your new toy… May it allow you to do more & better things!

Thank you.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View mpounders's profile

mpounders

732 posts in 1548 days


#32 posted 09-10-2012 09:37 PM

yeah! that’s the macdaddy of micromotors! I think you will appreciate the smoothness and comfort of the tool. Just use your dremels for the rougher stuff. You’ll be surprised how much you like it. I trip the overload protector every now and then on my RAM micromotor , but I use it a lot because it is so small and handy and quiet.

-- Mike P., Arkansas, http://mikepounders.weebly.com

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#33 posted 09-10-2012 09:55 PM

Changed my mind – I spoke to the people at Gesswein and they said that NO micromotor, not even theirs could handle the load of the basic Dremel moto tool – especially what I expect from it. Their honesty saved me some money. I use my 1/5th motor for my heavy work and my Dremel 4000 for my medium work – they suggested their motors would provide me with only high speed finishing work

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

View Joe Lyddon's profile

Joe Lyddon

7715 posts in 2705 days


#34 posted 09-11-2012 01:25 AM

I thought they said it was very powerful… I guess it means “to what Standard of Power”!

It sounds like you’re back to your old Dremel! Yes?

Well, I guess we ALL learned something here…

Thank you… (Now, look at all the Dremels you can buy!) LOL

”I use my 1/5th motor for my heavy work ”
What is that?

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

View Jordan's profile

Jordan

1358 posts in 1778 days


#35 posted 09-11-2012 02:52 AM

My 1/5th HP motor, Joe, is a Heavy Duty Dremel model 732 that was sent to me by them as a demo in 1990. It has run with only one brush replacement ever since but they no longer make it, although the Gesswein people today led me onto a company that makes similar – Dumore.
It runs 26,00 rpm which is 10 faster than any Foredom model.

-- http://www.jordanstraker.com

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