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All Replies on GFIC outlet and my Performax 10-20 won't play together.

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View Douglas Bordner's profile

GFIC outlet and my Performax 10-20 won't play together.

by Douglas Bordner
posted 08-12-2012 03:41 PM


21 replies so far

View Douglas Bordner's profile

Douglas Bordner

3964 posts in 2720 days


#1 posted 08-12-2012 03:42 PM

PS, already replaced the GFIC…

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

View Jimbo4's profile

Jimbo4

1133 posts in 1419 days


#2 posted 08-12-2012 03:49 PM

Was going to recommend replacing. Mine did the same thing. I disassembled the old GFCI, just to see what the innards looked like – burned contacts.

-- BELT SANDER: Used for making rectangular gouges in wood.

View Handtooler's profile

Handtooler

1084 posts in 788 days


#3 posted 08-12-2012 04:00 PM

Yes, a weak or faulty breaker would be the first culprit. Of course the circuit is ample for your machines load? Wire guage and breaker size. Russell

-- Russell Pitner Hixson, TN 37343 bassboy40@msn.com

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

4926 posts in 1233 days


#4 posted 08-12-2012 04:22 PM

I would try different outlets just to see what would happen.
Good luck my friend.

View Douglas Bordner's profile

Douglas Bordner

3964 posts in 2720 days


#5 posted 08-12-2012 05:08 PM

Was running the DC too, and the sound system. But I have done so for years without issue. I’m pretty sure it’s in the tool.
All other woodworking pursuits are happening. It’s a 15 amp breaker at the panel, and I have popped it attempting to run the TS under load (binding) and don’t run it and the DC at the same time EVER. I usually run only one machine at a time and clean up afterward, but the drum sander has to be vacuumed as it runs. I may try plugging it in to a non GFIC circuit, just to see if I can bring the whole house to a stand-still. XD

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

View Douglas Bordner's profile

Douglas Bordner

3964 posts in 2720 days


#6 posted 08-12-2012 05:08 PM

Anybody know how to pull that paddle switch?

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

View Jamie Speirs's profile

Jamie Speirs

4142 posts in 1512 days


#7 posted 08-12-2012 05:41 PM

I removed the cut off.

I just watch that I dont drive to thick a

piece through

Before I removed it I was waiting longer

for resetting than I was sanding.

jamie

-- Who is the happiest of men? He who values the merits of others, and in their pleasure takes joy, even as though 'twere his own. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14752 posts in 2332 days


#8 posted 08-12-2012 05:52 PM

It only takes 5 milliamps to trip the GFCI. You may be able to trouble shoot the machine with a good meter like a Fluke. I’m not sure if a cheap mete will tell you anything.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View Karson's profile

Karson

34876 posts in 3056 days


#9 posted 08-13-2012 12:06 AM

Douglas: I had a ground fault pop with just an electric eye on the circit som it doesn’t take much of a bleed for it to pop.

I would think that the bottom of the control area should be able to be removed and then you can get to the switch from there.

Just remember a ground fault doesn’t pop because of a short, it pops because on an inbalance of current from a hot wire (black) 0that doesn’t return through the ground side (White) so check from the white to the ground to see if there is a connection.

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

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Karson

34876 posts in 3056 days


#10 posted 08-13-2012 12:08 AM

Does anything else pop the GFCI, Just the sander?

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

View Douglas Bordner's profile

Douglas Bordner

3964 posts in 2720 days


#11 posted 08-13-2012 12:26 AM

Just the sander. The schematic shows a common ground post for the conveyor and drum. Some spider/cobweb blew out when I was cleaning it. There are two screws that attach the wiring box to the chassis, the rocker, a reset button with a screw on bezel and the potentiometer dial on the top for conveyor speed.

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

1447 posts in 1170 days


#12 posted 08-13-2012 12:34 AM

Remember that a GFCI is intended to pop when it senses any voltage going to ground. This also has to have a small amount of amperage with it, so the sensor can trip. Doesn’t take much at all, milliamps.
Also remember that the original use of GFCI is to prevent shock around water, so if water can carry the current with 120VAC, you will pop. People always think of a lighting bolt running through water, lighting is usually over 30,000 VDC. WAY more then a little 120VAC. So you have an amperage bleed somewhere in your sander, maybe even in the plug and wire.
All that being said, you may have a slight ground in multiple places in your sander, not just the switch. Any place where you might have dust from wood with any kind of dampness or minerals that would allow the windings to ground, the switch, any screw connection, the whole circuit!

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

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klassenl

114 posts in 1315 days


#13 posted 08-13-2012 03:35 AM

I would like to chime in here but I think my advice would be poo-pooed by most of the “experts” here.

-- When questioned about using glue on a garbage bin I responded, "Wood working is about good technique and lots of glue........I have the glue part down."

View EEngineer's profile

EEngineer

893 posts in 2269 days


#14 posted 08-13-2012 04:11 AM

GFCI compares the current in the “hot” wire with the current in the “neutral” wire. Any difference (a difference as little as 5 milliAmps will cause the GFCI to trip) between the two currents must be taking a different path than from the “hot” through the application to “neutral”. The most dangerous case is where that path is through a person’s body to ground, also known as electrocution.

Now, there are lots of possibilities for where the current path might be BUT the most common case is a breakdown in the varnish used as insulation on the wires in the motor windings. Except in the most extreme cases, you are not going to be able to measure that with a voltmeter. They generally drive the ohms function with a few volts. Varnish breakdown doesn’t show up until the voltage is 100 volts or higher. In general, you need a “hi-pot” tester (high potential) that measures leakage with a high voltage applied to the motor. Any decent motor shops will have this equipment.

-- "Find out what you cannot do and then go do it!"

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14752 posts in 2332 days


#15 posted 08-13-2012 04:26 AM

I can usually identify GFCI tripping issues with my ol’ Fluke 27. Motor testing does require a higher voltage meter. I can’t remember if I ever had a motor winding grounding causing the unbalance or not. I have done it too many times to remember them all ;-)) AS I recall, the Fluke usually shows about 3-4 mega ohms or less on a tripping circuit. Usually 6 mega ohms to infinity will be clear. I doubt if this helps much.

If the sander is the only thing tripping the GFCI, it is most likely 99.9% for sure the problem.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

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TopamaxSurvivor

14752 posts in 2332 days


#16 posted 08-14-2012 12:52 AM

Just happened to think about this thread and problem. Nearly all the GFCI nuisance tripping problems I have encountered have been due to moisture contamination providing a path to ground.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View Karson's profile

Karson

34876 posts in 3056 days


#17 posted 08-14-2012 01:55 AM

Douglas:

I’m not sure if the problem is caused by just having the machine plugged in, or when you flip the paddle switch to on. And is this the only item plugged in to the circuit.

I’ve encountered problems on my bandsaw with it’s magnetic switch (This is different from your GFCI) but I’ve found that dust inside the switch is causing the contacts to not make perfect contact and the switch won’t stay on. I need to blow the dust out of the switch and sometimes I need to sand the contacts with some fine sandpaper. (400-600) I just polish the contacts and then it’s OK.

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

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Karson

34876 posts in 3056 days


#18 posted 08-14-2012 02:03 AM

Douglas: I’ve also had problems with a belt sander that would not startup unless I spin the sanding belt by hand and then It would keep running. It was a starting capacitor. I ran a test on it and they sold me a replacement at a motor repair shop. Problem solved.

I don’t know if a capacitor that had problems would cause a GFCI to fail.

The Capacitor on a single phase motor (for a “fan”, etc.) sometimes causes a GFCI to trip. Commercial Grade GFCIs are better suited to this application.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_might_cause_GFCI_outlet_problems#ixzz23TwX1Hf6

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

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Karson

34876 posts in 3056 days


#19 posted 08-14-2012 03:01 AM

Wow Topamax a Fluke 360 $710.00 bucks. That’s a lot of meter.

-- I've been blessed with a father who liked to tinker in wood, and a wife who lets me tinker in wood. Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14752 posts in 2332 days


#20 posted 08-14-2012 03:55 AM

Nothing Fluke sells is cheap, but then, it tells you what you need to know. ;-) When my tools were all stolen in 1990, I lost a high voltage mega ohm meter used to diagnose motors, transformers, ect. It cost me over $1,000 in the 80s. The worst part of it is, the thief probably got $25 for it and only about 2% of the electricians really know how to use one ;-( Wonder where it is today? Wonder if it was ever used again?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View toolie's profile

toolie

1762 posts in 1284 days


#21 posted 08-15-2012 01:50 AM

isn;’t that jet covered by a 5 year warranty? if yes, why on earth are you trying to fix it. let jet fix it.

-- there's a solution to every problem.......you just have to be willing to find it.

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