All Replies on Please Read: Politics & Religion Rules Update

Although I disagree with your move, I cannot blame you for it. I still like the site and will continue to visit.

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.

Good call.
It’s something of a shame these things can no longer be discussed, but, given the way they were often being “discussed”, I’m behind you 100% in this decision.

As an adjunct to this, perhaps everyone should have their slates wiped clean – how about you clear everyone’s block list, or, better yet, get rid of the feature entirely?

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence."

What happens to people who have stolen other members’ identity and making posts that appear to be those of the victim?

It results in postings by the Real person as well as the Phony one which, at times, are hard to tell the Real vs the Phony.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

I have mixed feelings about this as I enjoy a good debate. Having said that, as I have said several times, this is your site and you make the rules and I respect that.

I won’t miss the rancor, the endless linking to outside websites and the personal attacks so, on balance, this is a good move.

That leaves only the SawStop as a third rail ;-)

-- Altruism is, ultimately, self-serving

I think this is for the best since there has been so much negativity floating around those topics. Here’s to a healthier Lumberjocks community!

-- "hold fast to that which is good"

KnickKnack People block others for all sorts of reasons. I don’t want to assume it’s just about Politics and Religion so I think I’ll let people clean their own lists. I don’t think those lists are problems until people start making them public. I appreciate the feedback and support though.

Joe Lyddon That’s a real problem and I need to talk to Martin about the idea of being able to change your name and the problems it causes. I will say this though, someone doing that to cause problems in the future probably wont be around long.

Thanks Nathan for your actions. Sorry times when we have to do things like this because of a few. Thanks again, still the best woodworking site out there.

It’s a shame that you’ve had to take these measures but given the circumstances I believe it’s completely warranted. It’s always the case when a few immature people can’t be respectful and cause the majority to lose out. I guess I have two questions. Why not just ban the ones that can’t be respectful and leave the forum untouched? The other question would be, If you are banning Politics and Religion from the OFF TOPIC forum will it be changed back to where you don’t have to take special steps to view the latest topics? Thanks for listening to those that have voiced there concerns!

-- www.thepatriotwoodworker.com Proud Supporter of Homes For Our Troops

I really like alot of the people here but I really can’t stand their politics. It’s better I don’t know there affiliation and know them as Talented woodworkers! so Thank you for your Decision. :)

-- Steve - Wasilla, Alaska

RetiredCoastie It’s more than just a few trouble makers. Politics and Religion seems to bring out the worst in everyone and people lose respect for each other. It’s funny that AKSteve made his comment right after yours because it reflects the way a lot of people think. Good people turn bad, people lose respect for each other, and in the end it’s more trouble than it’s worth.
I’ll also add this. If you ban the trouble makers but leave the topics open the trouble makers just come back under a new name.

Way to go guy .
Chuck

-- Chuck, wiswood2 www.wisconsinwoodchuck.com

Thanks for making this change.

I really enjoy woodworking, and in recent years my enjoyment has been growing. That’s partially due to this website. But the site was becoming a “hostile environment”.

While I tried to avoid the animosity, both topics and individuals, sometimes I can’t avoid being exposed to it. That ain’t what I want. In the 60’s I’d mutter “you’re bringing me down, man”.

And the nastiness was escalating. I began to wonder if maybe it was time to withdraw from the site – for the sake of serenity.

I hope all members try to comply with the intent of these changes, and find a way to be nice to each other. I’m getting older and I find I no longer have much time for rancor.

Please.

-- Jim Maher, Illinois

Hi Nathan, have you considered modifying the block functionality so that it would continue to prevent users who are blocked from PMing the blocker, but allow them to respond to forum posts? Allowing users to decide who is or is not allowed to respond to a forum post seems a bit extreme.

-- John, BC, Canada

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.

As per usual, those in charge punish everyone instead of dealing with the very few who don’t ”play nice”.
This knee jerk reaction always happens when the other few don’t like what they see or hear.
I don’t participate in these political and religious games but I would never attempt to silence those who do ”play nice”.
Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback….......................

-- mike...............

Other very functional and useful forums have similar rules as these new changes….I don’t have a problem with them and will abide by them. Sometimes our focus can be distracted….a very dangerous thing with sharp tools. The new rules should help us avoid distractions on the forums and improve the overall “Lumberjocks” experience.

-- Joe - - - something witty should go here - - -

Nathan,

Thank you for taking a stand. This is the right thing to do, given the current situation.

• Perhaps this should be in a different forum (site feedback?) instead of non_shop talk. The people who have chosen to hide off-topic titles might be interested in this information, especially since I suspect that the newly banned topics are often the very reason that they have the titles hidden.
• Conversations have a way of migrating toward religion and politics. This is not specific to LJs, it’s just the way things are. Do you have a plan to handle this? Maybe a new choice in the Flag menu?

Thanks again.

-- "Too much hurry ruins the body. I'll sit easy … fan the spark" - I. Anderson

Nathan, although I wish we could all discuss any topic in a civil manner, I think you have chosen the best possible course of action given the circumstances. I would hate to lose the non-shop forum completely, and I think this is a reasonable compromise. Thank you.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

I appreciate the actions taken here. Politics and religion are very volatile topics. Im looking forward to the “community” feeling once again without the religious / political divide. We’ve all gathered together to enjoy what we love not what we do not like.

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

Nathan thanks for responding to my question. I understand your reasons.

What about the “NON SHOP TALK TOPIC” title being hidden on the home page? People may not click to view someones post because of the way it was before the ban. There are many topics that are not inflammatory, political or religious in nature and don’t fall into other categories, such as computer, photography etc etc. If people abuse the forum, then boot em!

-- www.thepatriotwoodworker.com Proud Supporter of Homes For Our Troops

Hi Nathan, have you considered modifying the block functionality so that it would continue to prevent users who are blocked from PMing the blocker, but allow them to respond to forum posts?

I’m very much in favour of this.
There are a couple of (entirely woodworking related) threads around, to which I could contribute, but am blocked from doing so. I guess I upset these people somewhere along the line, although I don’t recall ever being rude. It worries me that some very experienced and knowledgeable people might be unable to post their advice and experiences on a woodworking thread just because, a few years ago perhaps, they said something political or religious to which someone took offence.
A somewhat fuller discussion can be found a while ago in this thread.

Given the apparently “more active” moderation (I’m reading a bit between the lines), I can’t really see the need for JockA to prevent JockB commenting on a thread about, for example, someone needing help posting a new topic, or how best to apply an oil finish, or…..

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence."

Thanks Nathan. Good move. I like it.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Good move Nathan….thanks.
On Politics & Religion we have 2 main members if you could block those 2 that would solve a lot.

There are members here who oddly proclaim innocence as victims of the Block feature, but it is a very useful tool when a person like myself who blogs, starts forum topics, or posts projects and gets nasty, unwarranted comments. For heaven’s sake, nobody should have to endure mean-spirited comments when a project is posted. Or a humiliating wisecrack in a free-form thread about not having a driver bit in a rare unknown size. How about a blog on a future project where another member doubts my ability, then goes over the edge when said project is completed? The block feature is perfect as it is, and those who complain about it should think about how their thoughtless words land on other people.

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

Nathan, when a topic is religious in nature but the proponents consider it science…how do you handle that?

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

poopiekat: There are members here who oddly proclaim innocence as victims of the Block feature… ...and those who complain about it should think about how their thoughtless words land on other people

I proclaim my innocence even though I do find myself, surprisingly, blocked by a few people (yes, me, hard to believe isn’t it).
But, aside from that, and I know, Mr Kat, that you’ve been through some tough times here, which you ought not to have had to endure, I just don’t think it’s the right solution. People making “nasty, unwarranted comments”, and “mean-spirited comments when a project is posted”, should have their comments swiftly removed, and, imo, just be thrown off the site, perhaps with a final warning first.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence."

Poopiekat, this thread isn’t about you and me, but since you’re bringing up an interaction we had in a forum thread long ago, and because I can’t PM this to you, let me just say that my “humiliating wisecrack” was not intended to be offensive or thoughtless. If it came across that way to you, then I sincerely apologize. I’m willing to let bygones be bygones—are you? If so, then thank you. If not, then these will my final words to you on the subject.

-- John, BC, Canada

Nathan:

”the trouble makers just come back under a new name.”

If the IPA was keyed to each account, enforcing One Account per IPA, wouldn’t that stop that from happening?

Of course, family members, who are also Members here, might have a problem… (???)

Also, if anyone is ever Banned, I think it’s the IPA that should be banned in order to stop “the Return under a new name”. Yes?

Thank you.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Who pray tell is going to determine weather any religious / political topic is deemed to be scientific in nature. Science often times is just as inflammatory as politics and religion. Case in point “GLOBAL WARMING”.

Joe IPs can be changed.

-- www.thepatriotwoodworker.com Proud Supporter of Homes For Our Troops

Chrisstef, I agree man. We seem to have lost that lovin’ feeling. Now it will return.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Getting rid of science topics is almost like going back in time and banning them due to religious reasons. That’s a thin line Coastie.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Sadly Joe, IP addresses in a lot cases are dynamically assigned. You’re looking at a long hard battle on that one…

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Rules…

What good are they if they cannot be enforced?

If the problem is not having enough Labor Power to enforce them, perhaps getting Volunteers to help enforce them would help?

It seems to me, that is the problem we have run into here…

Without being able to Enforce the Rules, we have to step backward and remove 100% because of the smaller % of bad people breaking the Rules cannot be controlled.

It seems to me that when Rules are set, procedures should also be set in order to enforce them.

Just my two bits worth…

Question:
Can Laws that effect all of us woodworkers, such as SawStop type laws, etc., would those Subjects be against the rules to be talked about?

Thank you.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

One more word to the Mods here: I probably would not be participating as an active member here, if not for the Block feature. Imagine if YOU had your Photobucket account hacked, photos of YOUR projects stolen and reposted under a dummy account, and then posting a link in a LJ thread declaring that your projects are FAKE and posting a link to the dummy account. Thankfully, that thread got removed. BUT.. more pics of mine were lifted from Photobucket and posted in a LJ forum thread entitled “Great Deals I found on eBay”!!! It too got tanked by the Mods. and that member suspended. Then, he found my discussion from an old local website, now defunct, about neighborhood snow removal, and posted one long entry of mine here, as if it was his own words! Not to give up, this member then PM’d me and said I didn’t have long to live, and posted pictures of his arsenal and a GoogleStreet view of my own house!! All because I did not want to make him a ‘Buddy’, and told him why when he asked….. Lest We Forget… The Liberal and Tolerant laisse-faire control is a great feature…but gets abused by the people who can become real problems.

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

Excellent and thanks!

-- ~Just A Guy With A Hammer~

DKV I agree with your statement. My only concern is that people will stretch the rules in order to stir up arguments which is the reason for the ban in the first place. Otherwise the NON SHOP TALK will just go away as it did before. While I may not agree with what I perceive to be your belief I do however respect your right to your opinion and a healthy debate is a good thing but there are those that can’t behave and don’t have the same respect for opinions other than there own.

-- www.thepatriotwoodworker.com Proud Supporter of Homes For Our Troops

Redryder, this may or may not be a “knee jerk reaction” but now we can all get back to woodworking and just get along. Thanks Nathan. You will never make everyone happy.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

I think at this point all those folks that have been blocked should be unblocked. A clean start of sorts. Now that we all understand the rules I say drop all the blocks. Remember poopiekat, we now have that “lovin’ feelin’” back. Give it a shot. Let’s see what happens. I love you all, until you prove you can’t be loved.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Well, that’s too bad. LJ’s was one of the more vibrant and interesting sites on my Favorites list because of the opportunity to step out of the woodworking box and discuss/debate/argue with fellow woodworkers. Yes, some of the threads were over the top, but most seemed to be pretty civil.

I felt that the management had done a pretty good job of providing some separation between the wood working and non woodworking topics, but I guess the puritans yelled enough to force the change. You’ve lost a lot of what made this site so good. Now, IMO, it’s just another ho-hum website.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

If ALL of the IPA# is used, yes, there could be a problem…
BUT, if the last 3 digits were Not used, it would be better.

Of course one can go to another location or use another ISP… & have another IPA…
(but he has to only operate from that source).

If he comes back under a New Name and continues to cause trouble, Ban him (the IPA) again…

Keeping the IPA as part of the Account Control would be a big help and would probably stop 95% of the people doing it.

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

If you want action Sawkerf try discussing evolution on a creationist website or Obama on a republican website. That’ll get you some action…

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Blocking… UNBloacking…

I agree with Nathan… It’s up to the USER…

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Good call, Nathan, Debbie and Martin.

-- Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Thank you!

-- Ron Wilson - maker of fine firewood!

If you are NOT whining about it, what are you doing? LOL

Presenting Ideas / Suggestions is not “whining”...

-- Have Fun! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net ... My Small Gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/showgallery.php?ppuser=1389&cat=500"

Chipmunk, Chipmunk, Chipmunk please be an adult about this change and have patience. Eventually all of the bad feelings and name calling will come to an end. We can all live and love together in peace and harmony. Of course we could also wait for pigs to fly. Now flying pigs will really cause some lively discussion. I say wait for the pigs…

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...

Sawkerf you said it well. If I wanted to discuss politics just for the “gotcha” effect I would go to a political website and argue with those type of people. But I want to discuss it to learn and be challenged. Thats why I like it to be discussed in places that are not dedicated to political hacks. I guarantee in one of my posts I enlightened a person to real history that he did not even know existed. I did not call him names either. It was an educational debate.

-- Your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be free from you.

As the song goes, “been a long time comin’”.
An old addage:
“When you argue with a fool in public, the public can’t tell which one is the fool.”
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

Hey, chipmunk:
hmmm… you lament the new controls, yet spare me no latitude in my choice of words. Somebody just tried to get a rise out of me, yet no comment from you about that. Guess it depends on whose ox is getting gored? Aww who cares. Though, something you wrote a few days ago was like…wow, good stuff…

-- Einstein: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I'm Poopiekat!!

Most of the time they can Bill. Most of the time they can.

-- I would drink a river of the kool aid before I took the smallest sip of the tea...