LumberJocks

All Replies on Paul Sellers push for a return to traditional woodworking skills

  • Advertise with us
View Jon_Banquer's profile

Paul Sellers push for a return to traditional woodworking skills

by Jon_Banquer
posted 08-10-2012 01:21 AM


37 replies so far

View Zinderin's profile

Zinderin

94 posts in 799 days


#1 posted 08-10-2012 03:45 AM

I have watched the zen of Paul on YouTube. He is very good.

I am always nervous when someone starts talking “traditional woodworking skills”. It usually translates to “let’s do it the way the Amish did it 300 years ago.” Uhm, no thanks. I like my power tools.

However, Paul isn’t really like that at all. He’s more about understanding why and how you get there … then get there however you like.

I support those guys that like to keep the knowledge alive by doing their wood-working “old school”. We need those types.

But there’s a reason I don’t own an abacus, and frankly if we end up in a road warrior world where I can’t use my power tools, wood working will be the least of my concerns.

View pierce85's profile

pierce85

508 posts in 1229 days


#2 posted 08-10-2012 06:56 PM

I enjoy Paul’s instructional videos as well and have learned quite a bit from watching them. However, I’m not sure what he means when talks about “Real Woodworking” for “real woodworkers.” I assume it’s related to “His mission… to put the emphasis back on building true artisan woodworking skills and to change the focus from what woodworking has become.”

What exactly has woodworking become? The renaissance in hand-tool woodworking is alive and well as far as I can tell and has continued to grow for some time. So it’s unclear to me what he’s trying to revive or bring back or emphasize that others have not. People like Roy UnderHill, Christopher Schwarz, Rob Cosman, the folks at Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, Tools For Working Wood, not to mention smaller online schools like Shannon Rogers’ Hand Tool School, among many many others, have all been actively promoting “traditional woodworking skills” for quite a while now. Roy has been doing this publicly for over 30 years.

I don’t mean to take anything away from Paul. He’s a talented and accomplished woodworker, who contributes a tremendous amount to the woodworking community. I’ve watched all his videos and check his site almost daily to see if he has anything new. I wish him all the success in the world. But I think he overplays his “Real Woodworking” theme too much, and it’s also a bit misplaced. I can’t imagine defining any of the above woodworkers as being engaged in fake woodworking.

I understand that any woodworker trying to make a living teaching the craft needs a hook of some sort to grab attention and make people feel they’re getting something unique and different from the other guys. It’s an incredibly tough business. Nevertheless, the notion of “real woodworking” implies that there are those who practice unreal, inauthentic woodworking. I just don’t see the need to use that message to promote one’s methods or vision.

View Mainiac Matt 's profile

Mainiac Matt

4049 posts in 995 days


#3 posted 08-10-2012 07:23 PM

I like Paul’s YouTube vids….

but have to confess, I am gladly an “artificial” woodworker.

-- Pine is fine, but Oak's no joke!

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#4 posted 08-10-2012 07:37 PM

“What exactly has woodworking become?”

In my opinion the focus has shifted to selling expensive tools rather than on skill building. Many of the people you named are heavily influenced by companies making expensive woodworking tools. I also don’t think any of the people you named can teach at the level Paul Sellers can and none of them offer the kind of comprehensive fundamental woodworking training that Paul does.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Clint Searl's profile

Clint Searl

1465 posts in 1028 days


#5 posted 08-10-2012 09:26 PM

I’ve only watched a couple Sellers videos, but my reaction is that what he does is very much like baton twirling. That is, a baton twirler may spend 47 years developing his/her twirling skill, becoming the greatest baton twirler in the world, but when all is said and done, it’s still baton twirling. Likewise, Sellers’ 47 years experience may make him the consummate wood worker , but it says nothing about the tangible product that he’s going to leave behind. Other woodworkers, like Krenov, Maloof, G&G, and Nakashima, created designs that have inspired generations of craftsmen, regardless of their or their followers’ skill at cutting a dovetail.

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

View bunkie's profile

bunkie

411 posts in 1814 days


#6 posted 08-10-2012 09:34 PM

I’ll take a stab at what’s not traditional woodworking>

The use of engineered wood.

I’m plagued by it. Part of me would like to never cut another piece of plywood or MDF ever again. It’s a necessary evil considering what most of my woodworking is (big boxes of one sort or another built to a price).

I dream of nothing but natural boards made from trees grown on my non-existent property milled and dried by me and worked with nothing but hand tools. I also dream of owning my own LearJet.

-- Altruism is, ultimately, self-serving

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#7 posted 08-10-2012 09:50 PM

“Other woodworkers, like Krenov, Maloof, G&G, and Nakashima, created designs that have inspired generations of craftsmen, regardless of their or their followers’ skill at cutting a dovetail.”

Got any links to their videos that show how they teach the fundamentals of woodworking?

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1036 days


#8 posted 08-10-2012 10:10 PM

Well, Krenov started a fine woodworking program at the College of the Redwoods.

Starting to wonder if this thread fall under the new religion ban. :-/

-- John

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#9 posted 08-10-2012 10:24 PM

“Well, Krenov started a fine woodworking program at the College of the Redwoods.”

What about those who can’t attend and who need high quality video training that teaches the fundamentals of woodworking?

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View pierce85's profile

pierce85

508 posts in 1229 days


#10 posted 08-10-2012 10:32 PM

In my opinion the focus has shifted to selling expensive tools rather than on skill building. Many of the people you named are heavily influenced by companies making expensive woodworking tools.

I agree to some extent, but Roy UnderHill, Chris Schwarz, and Shannon Rogers are certainly not boutique handtool mavens; Rob Cosman, yeah, but then he’s selling his own line of tools and designs. Ironically, the current vintage handtool market – the tools that Paul uses – is in a fairly substantial bubble now. For the price of some of these vintage tools you see on ebay and elsewhere, you could actually save money by buying a new Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley equivalent. That gap is closing very quickly.

I also don’t think any of the people you named can teach at the level Paul Sellers can and none of them offer the kind of comprehensive fundamental woodworking training that Paul does.

Perhaps, but I’m guessing you’d get a different assessment from students of other woodworking instructors.

Hey, I like what Paul does. I don’t doubt his expertise and teaching skills one iota. What I find unnecessary is the way he markets himself and his woodworking philosophy. I think his methods and teaching speak for themselves and don’t need that if you want to know what real woodworking is all about and want to be a real woodworker then follow me…

Paul may mean something entirely innocuous when he talks about “real woodworking” and “real woodworkers,” but if he does he needs to do a much better job making that clearer.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2848 posts in 1910 days


#11 posted 08-10-2012 10:48 PM

I like to compare woodworking to cooking. A great cullinary school can teach someone the essentials to be a chef, but it’s up to the chef to make something that the school never taught him. In other words, a woodworker or chef must be inspired to create something great; the school can only go so far. This does not detract from the teacher one bit. The two become a partnership.
True there are some (many?) who are in it for the money and I try to avoid buying what I feel doesn’t add much to the value of woodworking. Think convenience foods vs home cooking.

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 1036 days


#12 posted 08-10-2012 11:31 PM

So the only gauge of a woodworking instructor is whether they have videos on youtube?

Like many here, I like Paul, think he’s a great resource, but I don’t see him as particularly special. Schwarz has lots of videos, but you have to buy most of them. Does that make him less than Paul if he puts more of his content up for free? Paul also has a DVD series for sale at Lee Valley. Paul obviously teaches face-to-face, so are the youtube videos just a loss leader to drive attendance?

Looking at his website (http://paulsellers.com/real-woodworking/) I’m not too sure I like his vibe either; sound more than a bit elitist; although maybe it’s not intended to be.

-- John

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#13 posted 08-10-2012 11:41 PM

“So the only gauge of a woodworking instructor is whether they have videos on youtube?”

My only gauge is video’s I’ve seen / own:

Charles Neil
Christopher Schwarz
David Charlesworth
Frank Klauz
Gary Rogowski
Rob Cosman
Norm Abrams
Tons of stuff from Fine Woodworking / Taunton Press
Marc Spagnuolo

Others I can’t remember right now. None of the above came close to inspiring me or giving me the confidence that Paul Sellers does. I’m sure it’s different for others.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#14 posted 08-10-2012 11:48 PM

“Looking at his website (http://paulsellers.com/real-woodworking/) I’m not too sure I like his vibe either; sound more than a bit elitist; although maybe it’s not intended to be.”

Have never found him to be elitist. Just the opposite.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Clint Searl's profile

Clint Searl

1465 posts in 1028 days


#15 posted 08-10-2012 11:51 PM

How’s your baton twirling coming along, Jon? C’mon,show us your work. That’s what counts.

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#16 posted 08-10-2012 11:56 PM

I don’t have any woodworking I’ve done so far that I think is special enough to show. When I do what will it have to do with my opinion of Paul Sellers?

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Clint Searl's profile

Clint Searl

1465 posts in 1028 days


#17 posted 08-11-2012 12:33 AM

Jon, all woodworking is special. Forget Sellers and the rest of the other self-proclaimed gurus with agendas. Throw away all those here’s-how-it-must-be-done videos, and just make stuff. You’ll have more fun buying the next piece of special wood than throwing money at another video.

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2848 posts in 1910 days


#18 posted 08-11-2012 11:06 PM

Looking at his website (http://paulsellers.com/real-woodworking/) I’m not too sure I like his vibe either; sound more than a bit elitist; although maybe it’s not intended to be.

—John He’s not elitist, he’s a Brit. I watched his video on making a workbench. I thought he fumbled around quite a bit trying to get those 2×4’s to line up. I didn’t care much for the way he glued the top up. It looked to me there was too much glue starvation. But at least he tries.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2848 posts in 1910 days


#19 posted 08-11-2012 11:21 PM

I think Paul Sellers agenda is to return to basics and not put so much dependence on the latest and greatest tool. I think he sees todays woodworkers falling into a trap set by the tool makers and sellers in the same way the food industry has gone. Everywhere you go, the emphasis is on “CONVENIENCE”. Don’t buy that vegetable; buy this one that is already washed and packaged for immediate use. Use this new tool. It will work faster than your old way of doing it. Convenience costs the consumer more. It can be the difference between a 99¢ a pound chicken and the same chicken cut up in parts and sold for $6.00. Going back to basics doesn’t have to go back as far as Roy Underhill.

View Jorge G.'s profile

Jorge G.

1526 posts in 1142 days


#20 posted 08-11-2012 11:21 PM

Throw away all those here’s-how-it-must-be-done videos, and just make stuff.

This is the best response so far. I have seen some of Mr. Sellers videos or examples here and I agree with some of what he says, and sometimes I don’t agree with him. The thing is, nothing teaches you how to do something unless you are standing by the workbench doing it. Sure you might get some tips that save you time, or a different way to do things, but in the end we are not talking brain surgery here.

If you have all those videos, I don’t understand why you don’t have something you consider good. You are obviously not a beginner.

-- To surrender a dream leaves life as it is — and not as it could be.

View pierce85's profile

pierce85

508 posts in 1229 days


#21 posted 08-11-2012 11:42 PM

Jon, I think you’re in very good hands with Paul. He’s been a source of inspiration for you and many others, which is an invaluable gift rarely reproduced. In short, you can’t go wrong with Paul’s teachings and that’s what really matters.

My criticism of his “message” is really inconsequential – my apologies. Paul has inspired a lot of new woodworkers with solid techniques and methods, and he needs to be applauded for that work.

My bad….

View lwllms's profile

lwllms

544 posts in 1948 days


#22 posted 08-12-2012 12:02 AM

Ron says, ”I think Paul Sellers agenda is to return to basics and not put so much dependence on the latest and greatest tool….”

That may be his goal but the gateway to traditional hand tool woodworking is sharpening. I never got past his video on sharpening before giving up on him. He doesn’t appear to grasp the basics of traditional sharpening and, instead, teaches a method that wastes a lot of time and will yield unpredictable results. Traditional sharpening is incredibly simple and dependable but so many of the current gurus out there screw it up with gimmicks.

I don’t understand the current mantra that someone has to be an expert in hand tools to be a “real craftsman” or why so many offer so much hand tool advise when anyone with any experience will immediately see they really don’t work the way they imply they do.

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#23 posted 08-12-2012 12:30 AM

“Jon, I think you’re in very good hands with Paul. He’s been a source of inspiration for you and many others, which is an invaluable gift rarely reproduced. In short, you can’t go wrong with Paul’s teachings and that’s what really matters.”

I searched a long time for someone I thought I could relate to as well as someone who had a systematic approach to teaching / learning woodworking.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#24 posted 08-12-2012 12:34 AM

“That may be his goal but the gateway to traditional hand tool woodworking is sharpening. I never got past his video on sharpening before giving up on him. He doesn’t appear to grasp the basics of traditional sharpening and, instead, teaches a method that wastes a lot of time and will yield unpredictable results.”

Sellers doesn’t believe in the micro bevel approach. His sharpening methods appear to me to be throw back to traditional methods before the micro bevel approach. To me the traditional method looks much faster than creating a micro bevel. Also, Sellers only uses diamond stones and the a strop changed with abrasive to finish.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View rance's profile

rance

4135 posts in 1827 days


#25 posted 08-12-2012 12:54 AM

Skill building IMO has nothing to do with hand-tools or power tools. Skill building is teaching them about working with wood. I won’t give up my power tools. You’ll have to pry them from my cold dead hands.

Who is this Paul Sellers guy? I’ve never heard of him. I’ll see if I can find some of his videos on his website.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

View lwllms's profile

lwllms

544 posts in 1948 days


#26 posted 08-12-2012 01:15 AM

Jon writes, ”... His sharpening methods appear to me to be throw back to traditional methods before the micro bevel approach. ...”

A throw back to when, before woodworking was being documented in the printed word? A ground bevel and a secondary honed bevel are what Joseph Moxon alluded to in 1680, what Peter Nicholson described in his 1832 book or what Stanley instructed on it’s plane iron packages as late as the 1970s. As far as I can tell, sharpening was explained this way until the arrival of all the Japanese stones and other gimmicks. It’s really simple, dependable and includes the control mechanism of the wire edge. Sellers says he likes diamond stones because they stay flat, which is important in traditional sharpening, but he doesn’t explain why flat matters in his method. I can’t see that it does. I don’t think he understands the process.

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3515 posts in 1145 days


#27 posted 08-12-2012 03:15 AM

Jon I dont know if i should applaud you zealous attitude of Paul or to tell you your dead wrong on some of the tings you have stated your dead wrong. I personally have attended classes from several of the people you just slammed. and most of them I respect as skilled woodworkers. I my self started using hand tools when I was seven I have always had a workshop and some people I know who come to my shop think I am a master. I do love to teach and my work will stand on its own. Paul’s mission is nothing that is not being done by others. That said i THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A MENTOR A GUY THEY CAN LEARN MORE FROM. If the hand tool movement is what your talking about Paul is just one of many who think the old ways are better. But I hate to tell you Paul is a small player in the movement. I am happy you have found someone you like to learn from. NOW GO OUT AN MAKE SOMETHING ANY THING AND KEEP MAKING THINGS BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE MOVEMENT IS ALL ABOUT. Don’t be a tool collector instead build a working set of tools and start making stuff This past year I have read over 50 books on woodworking I do that when i am not in the shop. now that said honor the guy you have chosen as your mentor dont try to tell everyone how great he is honor him by following his lead and above all else make things any thing and do it every day then you can grow into someone people will follow. you have to have the goods to be a master so make the goods.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Rxmpo's profile

Rxmpo

250 posts in 2412 days


#28 posted 08-12-2012 04:59 AM

Hi Jon,

I think Dude has nailed it. I met Paul at a woodworking show in February and I was very much impressed by his message. I bought his book and have worked on many “fundamental” skills since then, specifically hand sharpening and using hand planes. I have improved in both, HOWEVER I didn’t get home from that event and consider selling all of my “machines”. I took a piece of his teachings and incorporated them into what I do.

I love the work of David Marks, Tommy Mac, and many Lumberjocks. The Woodwhisperer always mentions things he has learned from different classes he has taken and HIS work shows a sampling of each of their influences, just as your work will.

One thing I try to remember is that as a kid, I couldn’t wait to get to college so I could dunk a basketball! Well, I got to college and I still couldn’t dunk a basketball. I will never be David Marks, but that’s fine, because I will be me, with my own style and passion.

Maybe after many years of working your own style, someone will want to be like Jon Banquer? You never know?

View MontanaBob's profile

MontanaBob

420 posts in 1351 days


#29 posted 08-12-2012 05:00 AM

I’ve got Paul Sellers in my buddies list, just so I remember once in awhile to go see what he’s up to…Old school is fine for those that have the time and patience for woodworking with hand tools…and I always pick up a few ideas and learn something….But I do it with power tools whenever possible. I’ve never bought a woodworking video, and very few woodworking magazines. I see something I like, I go to the shop and figure it out and build it….I know that there are some things I’ll never have the skill to build…I can live with that…I just get on LJ’s and look at all the projects posted everyday….Like Shipwrights latest table—-now that is a piece of art…I can’t do that but I sure do like seeing the beauty he brings out in wood…Maybe in my next life time I’ll catch up——LOL

-- To realize our true destiny, we must be guided not by a myth from our past, but by a vision of our future

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

2848 posts in 1910 days


#30 posted 08-12-2012 03:54 PM

Paul’s video on sharpening and sole flattening seems to be aimed toward the collector and old plane restorer. I agree on his means of doing it. My planes and chisels are sharp and I use the “scary sharp” method. In fact, yesterday after watching him flatten a 2×4 with a #4 plane, I went to the shop and did the same thing. It worked better than with my PM 6” jointer. I suspect the tables are not coplainar and the knives are not sharp. I noticed he grinds all his planes as “scrub” planes. That I don’t agree with; not for planing edges of 2×4’s; ok for large flat surfaces. I also didn’t agree with his using the #4 plane on end grain. I think a low angle block plane would be much better, but hey! if it works for him, that’s fine. Who am I to say it doesn’t work. His method of using a “Sharpie” pen to mark the wood surface is right on. I used it and right away, my planing technique improved 100% I like his “back-to-basics” approach, but that doesn’t mean I’ going to stop using power tools. There is a place for both. That is where convenience comes in. Power tools can remove a lot of wood quickly with minimal effort leaving hand tools for fit-up and finishing. I probably use power tools for 60-70% of a project and hand tools for the remainder.Off course this varies depending on the project. Many times, I will break out a handsaw to cut wood down to a convenient size. Sanding is one thing I usually do under power, as it takes a lot less effort than by hand; I finish with a scraper.

View Infernal2's profile

Infernal2

104 posts in 864 days


#31 posted 08-13-2012 01:48 AM

I like Sellers and some of his tips are phenomenal. That little folding Stanley pocket knife he makes so much of? I have one and its a great little tool. His method for using a bevel edge chisel to drive mortises? Also a great tip.

However, at the end of the day, I categorize Sellers with a thousand and one other woodworkers who while having a great deal of valuable knowledge to pass on, they are still ultimately trying to sell me a product. Schwarz, Cosman, Hock, Sellers, and many others are great at passing on their skills but just like the rest of us, they are still trying to make a buck. That doesn’t make their skills any less valuable of course, but heaven forbid I start worshiping the guy who makes my lunch. It’s good lunch, but still.

I can respect and do respect many of those listed here, the ones living and the ones deceased but at the end of the day, I’m the guy who is putting tool to wood and I’ll be damned if I’m not going to do it the way I find enjoyable.

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#32 posted 08-13-2012 02:00 AM

“That little folding Stanley pocket knife he makes so much of? I have one and its a great little tool. His method for using a bevel edge chisel to drive mortises? Also a great tip.”

What is the model number of the folding Stanley pocket knife Sellers uses and who in the US sells it?

“However, at the end of the day, I categorize Sellers with a thousand and one other woodworkers who while having a great deal of valuable knowledge to pass on, they are still ultimately trying to sell me a product.”

Besides training what tools does Sellers sell? From what I can tell he doesn’t sell any tools.

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View Infernal2's profile

Infernal2

104 posts in 864 days


#33 posted 08-13-2012 02:42 AM

He sells videos (and an up and coming book) though he’s also poignantly trying to sell you on his philosophy of woodworking. Like others have noted, while I really like Sellers and find some of his ideas great, selling me the philosophy of “old ways are the best ways” seems awfully short-sighted to me. Really, its no different than Schwarz trying to sell us his “aesthetic anarchism.” Personally? I like Jim Toplin’s take on the “return to traditional”

“The bottom line here is that New Traditional Woodworking is not about going back in time to endure a tedious vocation. Instead, it is about immersing oneself in a pleasurable avocation.”

That sounds to me, far more genuine than Seller’s oft repeated mantra of “I’ve been doing this for the past fifty years.”

As to the knife, its a Stanley 10-049, available through Amazon.

View Jon_Banquer's profile

Jon_Banquer

69 posts in 1476 days


#34 posted 08-13-2012 03:35 AM

His book is already out.

I agree he’s selling his philosophy / zen of woodworking. Don’t have a problem with that. Think he’s on the right track because I think tools are way over emphasized.

http://paulsellers.com/2012/06/the-stanley-knife-i-use/

“It’s not the US Stanley 10-049 folding pocket knife, not quite, but they look almost exactly the same. The UK is slightly more lightweight and more refined and the blades are a different shape, that said, they are both excellent knives for fine woodworking and the 10-049 blade could easily be reshaped if preferred. The Stanley 0-10-958 is exactly the tool I want for all my daily work no matter the wood.”

Think Sellers got the number wrong and it’s really a Stanley 0-10-598:

http://www.toolstop.co.uk/stanley-0-10-598-110mm-folding-pocket-knife-p6482

-- Jon Banquer San Diego, CA CAD / CAM programmer, CNC Machinist

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3515 posts in 1145 days


#35 posted 08-13-2012 06:02 AM

Jon did you work on a project today if not make sure you do tomorrow, Doing is the best teacher Now go make some shavings.

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View Cantputjamontoast's profile

Cantputjamontoast

341 posts in 2099 days


#36 posted 12-18-2012 11:37 PM

Paul Sellers says the only plane you need to build a bench is a #4. Hell I have bought those for $1. Needed some work not a rare tool.

His idea of a router is a 2X4 with a wood chisel poked through it.

-- "Not skilled enough to wipe jam on toast!"

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3515 posts in 1145 days


#37 posted 12-19-2012 12:02 PM

jom have you made anything yet ?

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

GardenTenders.com :: gardening showcase