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Evolution...Open to anyone with an opinion.

by DKV
posted 713 days ago


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113 replies

113 replies so far

View therookie's profile

therookie

887 posts in 1423 days


#1 posted 713 days ago

I do believe in evolution, but in all reality yes there is a non-shop talk forum but my firm belief is that it should be used for items like notifying this website of a passing of a jock or something along those lines. I mean some politics is OK but when that is all anyone wants to talk about on a WOODWORKING forum, I believe that there is something seriously wrong with that picture. For example my news feed has been showing that more and more people are commenting on the political stuff instead of the woodworking. When someone comments on a project that you post it gives you a little glory moment because they are usually saying good job or giving advice, it makes you feel good. but no not anymore, it is rare that you see more than 10 or 12 comments on one project now, where as before you could see 30 or 40. Just my opinion I have been keeping to my self for a long time now and I am getting sick of this ^ crap being posted.

-- http://aewoodworks.webs.com

View chrisstef's profile (online now)

chrisstef

10369 posts in 1602 days


#2 posted 713 days ago

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 966 days


#3 posted 713 days ago

At the risk of being blunt: Evolution is a scientific fact, you can accept it or reject it, but belief does not enter into the discussion. If your religious beliefs conflict with evolution, or any other science, you must decide how you will deal with that, but it does not diminish the validity of the scientific theory.

Your post indicates significant confusion with the basics of evolution (which is very common in the US) and you would benefit greatly from reading some introductory science books on the subject. I would suggest “Why Evolution is true” by Jerry Coyne; it is well written and accessible to the lay person.

-- John

View woodworkerscott's profile (online now)

woodworkerscott

354 posts in 1410 days


#4 posted 713 days ago

jmos
Very well put. You are exactly right…..there is no argument; evolution is fact. Thanks for posting.

-- " 'woodworker'.....it's a good word, an honest word." - Sam Maloof

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#5 posted 713 days ago

Jmos, please point out a few of the significant confusions.

Therookie, thanks for your thoughts.

Chrisstef, I do not know what you are trying to communicate.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

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chrisstef

10369 posts in 1602 days


#6 posted 713 days ago

that youre a troll

-- "there aren’t many hand tools as awe-inspiring as the #8 jointer. I mean, it just reeks of cast iron heft and hubris" - Smitty

View Mark's profile

Mark

1787 posts in 1870 days


#7 posted 713 days ago

haha good one chrisstef

-- My purpose in life: Making sawdust

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#8 posted 713 days ago

Chrisstef, please post a list of allowable nonshop topics. I’m not sure about the troll label.

Mark, have you ever thought on your own or do you just follow what others say and giggle?

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

945 posts in 1461 days


#9 posted 713 days ago

I believe in evolution but JMOS as a scientist I have to say that evolution is not a fact, it is a very well regarded theory. There is actually a difference, people that try to politicize science (like Al Gore) use the words fact when they shouldn’t. The instant you say something is a scientific fact and there is no room for arguement then you are as closed minded as the people that deny evolution.

Not all evolution is for the best, imagine breeding dogs. If certian dogs interbreed or breed with other species they get different characteristics. The resulting species of dog could die out or it could continue to live on, but that doesn’t necessarly mean its a better dog. This is where I think many believers in evolution don’t quite understand it. The darwinism only occurs if there is an outside force that “kills off” the inferior dogs.

One simply has to sit on a busy street to see evolution has failed some :)

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6640 posts in 1279 days


#10 posted 713 days ago

Ah, the simple pleasures of working wood by hand…

This was a tree that evolved into a pallet, that evolved into an Oak Table. As for the by hand part? My hand guided each piece. Of course, If you want to look at….

something curlie…..

Answer the Irish Poem, yet?

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View dakremer's profile

dakremer

2447 posts in 1688 days


#11 posted 713 days ago

I agree with the theory of Evolution, but (jmos) it is NOT “scientific fact”

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

View GregD's profile

GregD

606 posts in 1732 days


#12 posted 713 days ago

The evolutionists…

This is a misnomer. It seems to me that the people that have confidence in the theory of evolution are not so much believers in evolution, but are believers in the scientific method, the process that produced this particular theory (and others). It would be far more appropriate to label this group scientists. That paragraph then continues with some babbling that is not at all representative of the current theory of evolution nor the data and analysis behind it.

-- Greg D.

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 966 days


#13 posted 713 days ago

Pat, you are, of course, correct. If the strict sense all scientific knowledge is provisional, which is the beautiful thing about it.

The distinction I was trying to make is that evolution happened, and is happening. There is no theory that will come along and completely disprove evolution, especially in the creationism sense. It is possible the copious amount of evidence for evolution will be integrated into a larger, more comprehensive theory at some point (as Newtonian mechanics was absorbed into Relativity and Quantum Mechanics).

Many religious apologists like to try to use ‘theory’ in the colloquial sense to indicate that it’s just some guys opinion, which it is not.

DKV, if you are really asking this to gain knowledge, I’d look up the reference I quoted. I don’t have the interest or time to get into a detailed discussion on evolution, especially on a woodworking site.

-- John

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#14 posted 713 days ago

jmos, I am very interested and I am always open to knowledge gain. I am currently reading chapter 2 of your suggested reading. I don’t understand why we can’t discuss this subject in the nonshop forum of a woodworking site. I look forward to any input you may have. BTW, I have not found any “significant confusions” so far. Maybe chapter 3…

Bandit, you obviously did not read the title of this thread…

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6640 posts in 1279 days


#15 posted 713 days ago

Ah, but I did, sirah… If a piece of lumber can evolve, so can almost anybody, just look to your changing avatars for proof.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View jmos's profile

jmos

681 posts in 966 days


#16 posted 713 days ago

Just the idea that climate change occurs quicker than evolution is a major misunderstanding. That would vary significantly depending on the speed of climate change and the reproductive cycle of the species. That’s one of the major concerns with the current rate of climate change is that it is far more rapid than many past changes, giving species less time to adapt.

Likewise, evolution has nothing to do with a species ‘thinking about’ or ‘wanting’ to change.

-- John

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#17 posted 713 days ago

John, did I not say the samething in my post? I don’t understand where we differ. I am looking for new insights and different thought process approaches. I would love to get Greg going on this thread.

I always seem to forget about you bandit and then I have to go back and edit in a reply to you. I’ve always had this avatar and I don’t know what you are talking about.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6640 posts in 1279 days


#18 posted 713 days ago

Really…....OK, better go back and recheck your avatars over time. They have in deed changed, just every time you change them, they go back to all of your other posts. Maybe i should leave you with a better one of mine?

” I have always had this avatar…’ LOL LOL LOL. Some of us have very good memories…..

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

945 posts in 1461 days


#19 posted 713 days ago

AH man now you made me want some Salsa con Queso, thanks alot.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#20 posted 713 days ago

jmos and gregd, what are your thoughts on coyne and dawkins vs shapiro?

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View Dwain's profile

Dwain

323 posts in 2455 days


#21 posted 713 days ago

1) I don’t understand why you put these posts out there when you have nothing to do with woodworking. That is why you get the responses you get here.

2) Evolution is the best theory we have going. It is not fact, but it is what we have now, AND WE ARE STILL WORKING ON IT. Thats the great thing about science, If it’s fact, you’d better be able to prove it over and over again. If it’s not, keep searching.

3) Please understand simple grammar. To and too mean different things. Please review your Oxford Dictionary and figure out the differences. I welcome a woodworking project from you at some point…heck, I would rather not hear from you until you post something woodworking related.

Just my two cents.

Dwain

-- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there is no end to what you CAN'T do

View Sawkerf's profile

Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1665 days


#22 posted 713 days ago

I think that many people have the idea that evolution happens because a species somehow makes it happen. It’s my understanding, however, that evolution is essentially a lottery on a grand scale. Some mutation occurs which gives a few members of a species a slight edge in the survival sweepstakes. Since they survive slightly longer, they have a greater chance of mating with one another and passing that characteristic along to their offspring who will also survive slightly longer.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

2375 posts in 2123 days


#23 posted 713 days ago

I find it makes much more sense to think of evolution in terms of genes instead of in terms of living organisms or species. A gene which happens to produce an organism that is good at reproducing will become more prevalent than a gene that does not. There is no direction, there is no foresight.

An interesting example is the gene that causes sickle cell anemia. This is a recessive gene. If you get it from both of your parents, you will have the anemia. If you get it from just one parent, you will not. But, with one gene, you will be less likely to get malaria and more likely to reproduce than people who have no such genes. One gene is an advantage (in an environment with malaria) and two is a disadvantage. This is why the gene is so widespread, even though it can cause problems in the resulting humans.

-- “That it will never come again / Is what makes life so sweet. ” ― Emily Dickinson

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

945 posts in 1461 days


#24 posted 713 days ago

I think there can be a lot of reasons for it. For example people who have ancestors on both sides of their family tree that survived the black death in Europe are somewhat immune to AIDS. A different example would be animals begining to use simple tools, octopusses (is that the correct plural?) have been witnessed to use manmade objects found at the bottom of the ocean to help them open clams. The octopi (that could be the plural too :p) could develope shorter and stronger tentacles to aid in the use of tools.

One of these examples would be a mutation from sheer dumb luck and the other based on the species learning and passing it on to future generations.

And a scientific fact is something that can be measured or observed directly like the water temperature is 72 degrees, aluminum is less dense than gold. Facts can be a preresquite to a theory.
Unfortunately in many circles the theory is developed and the facts are looked for to support the theory.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#25 posted 713 days ago

Dwain, I absolutely understand the difference between to and too…my mistake. Forgive me.

Sawkerf, evolution is random and pure luck. Please reread my paragraph in the OP that starts with “I also think that…” It is a good example of evolution.

ChuckV, I agree that evolution is all about genes.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#26 posted 713 days ago

Pat Collins, layman theory or the everyday use of the word and scientific theory are two different things. Your last sentence denotes layman theory.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#27 posted 713 days ago

Pat Collins, this is from my personal bible. It may help you.

In modern science, the term “theory” refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a wayconsistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support (“verify”) or empirically contradict (“falsify”) it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word “theory” that imply that something is unproven or speculative.[3] Scientific theories are also distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#28 posted 713 days ago

For all those that constantly berate me and others for posting in the nonshop section please show me the rules for posting and I will follow them. I can’t understand why my woodworking or lack of it is such a concern to some of you. Maybe you can explain that to me. Also, I did my best to let everyone know via the title exactly what they were getting into by reading my post. Did I leave anything out?

Allah loves you all.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View GregD's profile

GregD

606 posts in 1732 days


#29 posted 713 days ago

DKV -

I vented my energy on this topic during its last iteration which was not so long ago.

My biology education is weak and I am not well read on Dawkins and Shapiro. I applaud anyone that is dissatisfied with evolution – or any other current scientific theory – and makes an honest, competent effort to improve the science. But the game of science has rules, and if you aren’t following the rules what you are doing isn’t science. Science – the practice of following the scientific method – rejects any reference to supernatural phenomena. Truly supernatural phenomena ls beyond the scope of the scientific method.

The bits I have read on Intelligent Design all have the same deficiencies as the paragraph following “I recently read this:” in the OP. They misrepresent the prevailing theory – evolution in this case – and then refute the misrepresentations. Such a process is worthless. If Evolution were a person (s)he should sue for slander.

Strike one.

Then there is the problem that the term “Intelligent Design” implies the acceptance of something supernatural.

Strike two.

Further the proponents of Intelligent Design that I have seen are all clearly determined to come up with an explanation of the diversity of life on Earth – any explanation – that conforms to their preconceptions – religious views in this case – that are completely independent of any of the relevant data. I know from my professional experience how difficult it is to avoid being misled by confirmation bias even when you are looking for its effects. The proponents of ID that I have seen embrace this pitfall at the outset. It will blind them for a very, very long time.

Strike three.

So everything I have seen on ID is clearly not science. It is a fraud, and an incompetent fraud at that.

That is not to say that the current theory of evolution is perfect and complete. It would be really cool to show experimentally how mutations and selection can lead to a population of fish that descended from a population of birds, for example. There may well be some pretty interesting details that are for now beyond our understanding.

-- Greg D.

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DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#30 posted 713 days ago

UNBELIEVABLE!

A new Gallup poll measures Americans’ belief in the origin of human beings, and how this belief correlates with church attendance, political party affiliation and education level. The poll was conducted by interviewing a random sample of 1,012 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia.The following question was asked to determine Americans’ views on origin of human beings:Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings?

1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process,
2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process,
3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

Respondents were categorized as believing in theistic evolution (option 1), evolution (option 2) and creationism (option 3) depending on their answer choice.Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention.

The percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

2375 posts in 2123 days


#31 posted 712 days ago

None of those is the right answer. The notions of “more advanced” and “less advanced” have nothing to do with evolution – they are a result of erroneous human-centric thinking. Are you as good at catching mosquitoes in the dark as a bat is?

-- “That it will never come again / Is what makes life so sweet. ” ― Emily Dickinson

View GregD's profile

GregD

606 posts in 1732 days


#32 posted 712 days ago

erroneous human-centric thinking

Careful. Many would find that an intensely inflammatory statement. A belief in a Judeo-Christian God, likely prevalent in the polled population, is an intensely human-centric characteristic, is it not? With luck no-one that would be inflamed will have any idea what you are talking about.

Humans. We are a crazy bunch.

-- Greg D.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#33 posted 712 days ago

Greg, I would call us an extremely egotistical bunch…

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View ChuckV's profile

ChuckV

2375 posts in 2123 days


#34 posted 712 days ago

I feel lucky that I arrived before the cockroaches took over. I have a feeling that the transitional phase won’t be pretty.

-- “That it will never come again / Is what makes life so sweet. ” ― Emily Dickinson

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1565 days


#35 posted 712 days ago

Only 15% believe in Evolution? Well I’ll be a monkey’s uncle!

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#36 posted 712 days ago

Renners, in this case you’d be the uncle of a bunny.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View bandit571's profile

bandit571

6640 posts in 1279 days


#37 posted 712 days ago

Evolved?? let’s see. Started out living happily in Western Gaul, til J.G. Ceasar showed up one fine day. Left for a big island off shore, dang if that sob followed us there, Wound up in the western edge of the “big island”, settled down. Here comes the Bastard Billie, to a place called hastings. Tried to get along with them Normans, gave up and went across the sea to the small island. Later on, here comes the “Normans”, only they call themselves “English”. Hmmm, same old Braggarts, different names. Tried to get along with them “English” fellows, until about the late 1700s. Bought passage to America. Found in a couple of wars there, moved from Finger lakes, New “York”, to some land we had won from the “New” American Government for our “War Services’. Land was in the Ohio Valley area. Some of us started a Methodist Church in the area, first called the Newman Society, later called the Olive Chapel. About 1820s. We have fought in EVERY war since that time. Still can’t get along with them “English” Dudes, though.

-- A Planer? I'M the planer, this is what I use

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1565 days


#38 posted 712 days ago

I thought it would be interesting and educational if you, DKV, would share with us what your faith has to say about the beginning of the world…
I promise not to laugh, after all, it can’t be any more outlandish than a talking snake and a missing apple.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#39 posted 712 days ago

Renners, I’m 100% big bang guy. Can’t even start to believe that the world is only 10,000 years old. I am firmly in the camp that we have evolved through gene mutation and blind luck. I do not believe in any kind of mysticism, hokey pokey, magic, divine intervention, etc. I guess my question is how can an intelligent and all powerful god create something as grand as the universe and then turn management of it over to a staff of pedifiles and adulterers. I guess that’s it in a nutshell.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1565 days


#40 posted 712 days ago

You dodged the question there, what does the Qur’an have to say about the beginning of the world? Is it any different to the Book of Genesis?

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#41 posted 712 days ago

Pretty much Muslims and the Koran follow the old testament. As you know the old testament (a history of the Jews) is the source book for the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths. Not much differs…all three have the same beginning point with only slight variations.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

945 posts in 1461 days


#42 posted 712 days ago

I have to say that I don’t believe in the big bang, but not for any theological reasons. I just dont believe there is enough science behind it other than some conjecture. I don’t get the need for a begining, why can the universe just have been? I think this need for a begining came from theoligical roots.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#43 posted 712 days ago

Pat, I agree there is no solid evidence except for the fact that science can prove the universe is expanding. My thought is if it is expanding then it was smaller at one time. Tiny small, small small, medium small, medium, large medium…who knows.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View OldMarine's profile

OldMarine

70 posts in 869 days


#44 posted 712 days ago

I do not believe in any kind of mysticism, hokey pokey, magic, divine intervention, etc. I guess my question is how can an intelligent and all powerful god create something as grand as the universe and then turn management of it over to a staff of pedifiles and adulterers. I guess that’s it in a nutshell.

So you’re an agnostic/atheist?

-- Jim, Southern Oregon

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1565 days


#45 posted 712 days ago

That’s a bit of a let down really, but thank you for sharing anyway.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#46 posted 712 days ago

OldMarine, to be an evolutionist do I have to be an agnostic/atheist? Agnostics by the way are kind of wimps that can’t make up their minds and take a stand.

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#47 posted 712 days ago

Renners, what are your thoughts? And, why are you let down? Take a stand, man! What do you believe?

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View 404 - Not Found's profile

404 - Not Found

2544 posts in 1565 days


#48 posted 712 days ago

There may have been infinite numbers of previous Universes.

Big Bang /

Universe Expands /

Universe Contracts /

Big Implosion /

Big Bang….

like a cosmic four stroke engine, running on matter, gravity and time.

Who knows? How do they even think this stuff up?

I think it sounds more plausible than man being moulded from clay.

View DKV's profile

DKV

3058 posts in 1100 days


#49 posted 712 days ago

This one will smoke your brain…

The Making of an Atheist: How Immorality Leads to Unbelief by James S. Spiegel

-- 2014 will be a different year...at least for me it will.

View OldMarine's profile

OldMarine

70 posts in 869 days


#50 posted 712 days ago

OldMarine, to be an evolutionist do I have to be an agnostic/atheist?

Not at all. Given your list of what you don’t believe in I was just asking.

I have heard agnostic referred to as “chicken atheists”.

-- Jim, Southern Oregon

This topic is closed.

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