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Progress under Nobama

by Clint Searl
posted 07-08-2012 01:19 PM


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64 replies so far

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DocSavage45

4996 posts in 1496 days


#1 posted 07-08-2012 04:07 PM

The phenomenon is world wide? Didn’t know this was a political blog? Going back to woodworking.

-- Cau Haus Designs, Thomas J. Tieffenbacher

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PineChopper

175 posts in 851 days


#2 posted 07-08-2012 04:41 PM

Environmental wackos, gov regulations, corp greed, and many more reasons has caused American manufacturing to leave this country which means less jobs.
Since the gov has taken money from my pay check for years and years, getting on SS just means I’m getting a small portion of MY money back.

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waho6o9

4921 posts in 1231 days


#3 posted 07-08-2012 07:19 PM

Thank you for posting Clint.

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SCOTSMAN

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#4 posted 07-08-2012 07:31 PM

Over here the journalists seem to think he’s doing well under the present conditions.Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

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waho6o9

4921 posts in 1231 days


#5 posted 07-08-2012 07:46 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/correspondents/briantaylor/

The first video is rather interesting no?

Enjoy the day Scotsman.

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#6 posted 07-08-2012 08:53 PM

Progress? I think it all boils down to economics. It’s easy to remove the emotional political baggage from all this. It all basically boils down to two economic schools of thought. Do you support the ideas of John Maynard Keynes or those of Milton Friedman? Personally, I would prefer the Nation follow Keynesian economics, it has a track record of some success. Reagan, most subsequent Republicans and many Democrats prefer Milton Friedman’s theories. Reagan’s attempt to apply Friedman’s theories took us from being the World’s largest creditor nation to being the World’s largest debtor nation in less than eight years. We’ve gone downhill since while trying to apply Friedman’s austerity ideas. I think it’s time to return to Keynesian policies where a proactive government can stimulate the economy because it works.

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helluvawreck

15798 posts in 1521 days


#7 posted 07-08-2012 09:05 PM

I prefer the Austrian School of Economics.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

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helluvawreck

15798 posts in 1521 days


#8 posted 07-08-2012 09:18 PM

Austrian economics is based on a system of saving money. The other is based a system of debt. Wealth is created by mining something, growing something, or manufacturing something. We are creating a service economy. When times get hard people can do their own dirty laundry, cook their own hamburgers, cut their own grass. This is where the rubber meets the road. When times get hard service oriented jobs will simply evaporate. We have done a great harm to our ability to create wealth by sending our manufacturing jobs oversees. Wealth is not fiat currency it something that is quite tangible. We will find these things out.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

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Jimbo4

1133 posts in 1417 days


#9 posted 07-09-2012 12:44 AM

More head in the sand hiders of what DUBWA did to us.

-- BELT SANDER: Used for making rectangular gouges in wood.

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#10 posted 07-09-2012 02:27 AM

I am amazed at the people on both sides of the fence that think Bush and Obama are so different. Look at their beliefs, I mean really look at what they have done. They are so similar it’s hard to pick where Bush ended and Obama began. Bush is a very devout Christian, Obama is black and has a better personality that is the extents of their differences.

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crank49

3434 posts in 1625 days


#11 posted 07-09-2012 02:50 AM

Yes, Keynesian economics make so much sense.
Take from those who have, and give to those who need.
Really stimulates me to work as hard as I possibly can so I can give it to a bunch of dead beats who won’t get off their ass.
Why not just go all the way and foget this half ass approach, just go follow Carl Marx’s philosophy. From each acording to their ability, to each acording to their need.
Oh, wait, that didn’t work out to well for the commies, did it?

Get the damn government out of the way of business, let hard work and innovation earn its just rewards and you will see what this country will accomplish. We could be back below 6% unemployed in less than one term. Regardless what the rest of the “progressive” world is doing. This is not dreaming, it’s been done before.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

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PineChopper

175 posts in 851 days


#12 posted 07-09-2012 03:51 AM

lwllms, why would democrats prefer Friedman’s economics?
Milton Friedman was a conservative economic advisor to Ronald Reagan.

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waho6o9

4921 posts in 1231 days


#13 posted 07-09-2012 04:04 AM

+100 for Crank49

Well stated and true my friend.

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#14 posted 07-10-2012 12:53 AM

Wow, I thought maybe we could get past the knee-jerk crap by actually discussing economic policy. Not the case I guess.

Conservative zealots switched to favoring the Austrian economic over Milton Friedman when real-life factors no longer agreed with their beliefs. Wall Street and the financial world doesn’t need regulation, they just crashed the World Economy then ripped off everyone to pay for their greed. Just wait, the Libor scandal will make Madoff look positively penny anti.

It’s too bad people choose to remain ignorant than actually seek facts. Here are is an artilcle about Richard Posner, a very well regarded conservative judge who couldn’t ignore the facts. The second is an article by Judge Posner. You may want to read them should you decide to pull your freaking head from you know where:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-06/who-needs-posner-when-you-have-mises-and-hayek-.html

http://www.tnr.com/article/how-i-became-keynesian

My guess is than most will choose to keep trying to peek through their navels.

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Clint Searl

1455 posts in 1015 days


#15 posted 07-10-2012 02:31 PM

lwllms: If there were only one reason to invalidate Keynesian economics and vote this clown out of office it would be this: By Mr. Obama’s economic logic, tax increases matter on middle-income earners but are irrelevant to everyone else. “By the way, these tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans are also the tax cuts that are least likely to promote growth,” as he put it Monday.
But Mr. Obama is demanding tax increases, not tax cuts, and large increases at that. If the Bush tax rates expire as scheduled on December 31, rates on the top two income brackets will jump to 39.6% from 35%, and 36% from 33%. Add the scheduled return of income phaseouts for exemptions and deductions, and the rates go up another two-percentage points—to at least 41% and 35%.

Mr. Obama claims this will merely return rates to what “we were paying under Bill Clinton,” but that’s not true either. It ignores his ObamaCare tax increase of 0.9% on top of the current 2.9% Medicare tax, plus a new 2.9% surcharge on investment income, including interest income.

That’s an additional 3.8% surcharge on investment income, and added to the Bush expirations would take the capital gains rate to 23.8% from 15% today, and the dividend tax rate to about 45% from 15%. In Mr. Obama’s economic world, tax cuts for middle-class “consumption” are good, but low rates to spur saving and investment are bad. This makes no sense because consumption is ultimately the product of saving and investment.

The President dismissed all of this as merely affecting 3% of small business owners. But that includes tens of thousands of the most productive, fastest-growing small businesses—those most likely to hire workers amid a national jobless rate of 8.2%.
Congress’s Joint Tax Committee—not a conservative outfit—estimates that in 2013 about 940,000 taxpayers will have enough business income to meet Mr. Obama’s tax increase threshold. And of the roughly $1.3 trillion in net business income, about 53% will get hit with the higher tax rates.

This is because millions of businesses report their income as sole proprietors and subchapter S corporations that file under the individual tax code. So Mr. Obama wants these businesses to pay higher tax rates than the giant likes of General Electric or J.P. Morgan. Does that qualify as “tax fairness”?

-- Clint Searl....Ya can no more do what ya don't know how than ya can git back from where ya ain't been

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#16 posted 07-11-2012 01:21 AM

Clint, that’s bs. I own an S corporation and we operated for a lot of years as a general partnership. Profits of both are treated as and taxed as personal income. If lower taxes on the wealthiest Americans generated jobs we’d be awash in jobs. What we’re awash in is hoarded corporate profits and outrageous benefits for officers of large corporations.

The reality is government stimulus works:

I know a lot of people want the black guy out of the White House but I prefer him to someone who wears magic underwear and believes his little cult can randomly, with a little paperwork by mere mortals, move the eternal soles of every person who ever lived in or out of heaven which is on the planet Kolob where God lives. And that’s without even getting into his shady business dealings or his secret off-shore tax haven accounts.

This Libor rate scandal is being called by some “the crime of the Century.” I thought the Wall Street melt-down over greed and gambling was bad enough. Do you really think those crooks need less regulation?

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#17 posted 07-11-2012 02:20 AM

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waho6o9

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#18 posted 07-11-2012 02:33 AM

It’s never wise to punish the productive and reward failure. It’s also not prudent to take

money out of the private sector and redistribute it.

Dodd-Frank, and Obamacare are two examples of why the public sector should stay out of
the private sector.

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#19 posted 07-11-2012 03:12 AM

The US health care system has been broken for more than 40 years. It’s not fixing itself, it’s getting worse. Out of control health care costs are a major contributor to the deficit. Something absolutely has to be done or it will bankrupt the Nation. The US is the only industrialized country that doesn’t have universal health care, the others pay less and get better care. He’s a little from history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGKkPEvD2OM

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crank49

3434 posts in 1625 days


#20 posted 07-11-2012 03:26 AM

That’s a purdy chart.
What koolaid class came up with that bullshit.
The economy around my piece of the USA sure doesn’t look anything like that piece of fiction.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

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lwllms

544 posts in 1936 days


#21 posted 07-11-2012 03:56 AM

The source is the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:

http://www.bls.gov/

If it doesn’t look like that in your area, you might ask your US Senators why. Maybe even your state and local governments. The public sector is the source of way too much off what’s ailing the economy. Too damn much Austrian School austerity, pretty soon we’ll look like Europe of this keeps up.

BTW, according to the FBI the mortgage crisis was the result of massive fraud and the overwhelming majority of that fraud was on the part of financial institutions. Blame Dodd-Frank all you want but it won’t change the facts:

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/mortgage-fraud-2010/

Just another reason for more deregulation, I guess???

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#22 posted 07-11-2012 05:12 AM

lwllms

You state too many facts to be correct!

Stop driving everyone crazy …. stare into the center of the image and move you head in and out from the screen and soon you will be normal!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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EPJartisan

1056 posts in 1779 days


#23 posted 07-11-2012 03:35 PM

Everybody is so worried about the public sector controlling the private sector… well if F. A. Hayek wrote in 1944 that the collectivist idea of empowering government with increasing economic control would lead not to a utopia but to the horrors of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Then wouldn’t it make much more sense to keep the private sector out of the public sector????... if we as a people do not let our government (which is made of the people for the people) limit the corporations control of our government…. with their financial bribery of politicians, the government positions held by corporate interests, election contributions, and paying less in taxes due to loopholes and breaks…. well then we will have a corporation government that controls the economy anyway….which letting the government control the economy does not lead to Utopia, but dictatorship or fascism with suppression of free will and Autonomy, liberty, and security. This is why we have separation of church and state.. so we don’t have one small group lording over and controlling and punishing any one that does not agree. We would have a Taliban here in the USA if we let ANY religious group control the government. Our government is OF the people.. FOR the people. this is not socialism.. it is democracy… it is pure safety for our freedoms we enjoy so much.

It is amazing how people don’t see this. either we are all the government or only the wealthy are the government… either the private sector controls the government OR the public must restricts the private sector from stepping on, damaging, or limiting the public sector.. YOu and I are the public… we are the public sector. I mean we rely on this every day for our security. We let other people stop other people from doing bad things. So why would we want a corporation who’s interest is their own money over happiness of the whole country?? WHY? it is just so unreasonable and ignorant… and dangerous!!! How many court cases against careless and greedy corporations have we forgotten of the last 100 years? When did America just get so stupid????

I am also a small business, not my wood/art shop, but computer consulting business I have had for over 15 years. I can tell you that I want to live in a country where the people are happy and commit less crime… if that means I pay taxes or a fee or rent.. or what ever you want to call it… to live in a wonderful country. I am fine with that!! Hike up my taxes! I would rather be a happy person in a country of happy people, than a wealthy person in a country of the sad, angry, poverty stricken with economic failure. I don’t need a flat screen TV.. I don’t need to have Twinkies or Doritoes. I do not need to consume. BUT our economy is fueled by consumption… from food, to knowledge, to selling my own art work.. NOT based on savings and investments. Spending money is not a re-distribution it is the nature of money.. a tool to spend on things. Redefining taxes is not a “redistribution of wealth”... oh please… it is a methodology to use a tool called “money” and spending it on this great country we all love… it is a attempt to fix what is wrong.. and what is wrong is the Middle class is disappearing.. not into wealth.. but poverty. The rich are getting richer because they save and invest and spread the wealth to the world instead of to America. Which again Corporation do not care about America.. they care about getting money FROM America. SO… again… why would ANYONE on this site care about the wealthy getting taxed more?? All the Billionaire Lumber Jocks please stand up… LOL

Funny how easy it is to complain about something you have no vested or active interest in being part of. I am a smart computer guys so I can find out a lot about each LumberJocks on here… and I have noticed most of the people angry at Obama… are old enough to be retired (and reliant upon an archaic system for medical and financial investment already.. and are no longer productive citizens of our economy.. just consumers) or do not own their own business anyway and are speaking out their @$$. I have also noticed most of the people who support Obama or just do not share an opinion here on LJs… DO own businesses, or are young/middle aged people who get the world sucks and it is due to Republicans. IT’s been 10 years since Bush convinced America that giving tax cuts to the “Job Creators” would make more jobs for America… WHERE THE HECK ARE THE JOBS!!!!!! it only happened AFTER Obama started to change things away forom Republican policies. SO I truly believe this whole hating Obama is not about economics or health care.. it’s about a Black guy leading you angry white guys. Thats all!

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

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waho6o9

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#24 posted 07-11-2012 03:48 PM

“Redefining taxes is not a redistribution… it is a attempt to fix it.. and why would ANYONE on this care about the wealthy getting taxed more?? All the Billionaire Lumber Jocks please stand up… LOL”

Money goes where it’s protected. One of the owners of Google comes to mind.
We need more rich Americans and less people saying we need to tax you more because we’re
here to help you.

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EPJartisan

1056 posts in 1779 days


#25 posted 07-11-2012 04:01 PM

That is ill logic. How many rich people can there be? And what price for those who can not be rich, or are limited from success because of the wealthy? The poverty people who drag down our WHOLE American Society? We know everyone can become poor. So please tell, me what in your mind makes you think that more wealthy people is good unless you want servants and serfdom, and even slavery. Why?Unless you want the wild west to run again, where people can kill and destroy other people for the God of Profit?? Please explain what can MORE money in fewer hand do?? what? And are you a Millionaire? a Billionaire? what do you care if the wealthy get taxed more? are you intending to become wealthy yourself? I see you own a business? are you really thinking you will become a millionaire with garage doors? Honestly.. WHAT do you have to loose if the country has less crime? if we have better police, if we have better schools to teach our children what is responsible? Where is the middle class if no one is able to do the middle class jobs? Where do YOU loose if someone earning over $125,000 a year get more taxes… you can not tell me you earn more than $125,000 a year. So what have you got to really say??

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

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AKSteve

438 posts in 957 days


#26 posted 07-11-2012 04:37 PM

EPJartisan – you are dead on right. Corporations and rich people are not ”Job creators” it’s not the responsibility of these people to create jobs! that is the last thing a company does. and the first thing a company does is fire or lay off people in order to increase the bottom line. And for some reason for the life of me I cannot figure out why it’s mostly the poor and uninformed who make the most noise. If your reading this then your probably not one of the rich. The rich don’t care about you! they don’t even know you exist and you will NEVER ever be as rich as they are. The income divide is now even larger than it was when the last depression hit. the rich want you to believe you will be just like them if you work hard and do as your told. Well has it happened yet?
I don’t blame one party though. I blame the whole system, both parties can share in the blame, yeah I do think the republicans are the worst of the bunch, but the democrats are not clean on any of our problems. I don’t personally care for Obama, but Mittens is alot worse, I will stomach Obama for another 4 years just as long as Mitt(the Manchurian candidate) is not in office. We don’t need a corporate CEO running government.

-- Steve - Wasilla, Alaska

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helluvawreck

15798 posts in 1521 days


#27 posted 07-11-2012 04:44 PM

EP, it’s really more like the government and the large private corporations work together. Think about the Pentagon and the military industrial security complex for example. Or say, Wall Street, the large financial corporations and the Federal Reserve. Do you remember the bailouts? Have you heard of the revolving door? Job in large corporation, then job in government, then job back in corporation or lobbyists. Another thing, most people don’t understand that all of the regulations kills the small companies but helps the large corporations because regulations keep the competition down. This is one of the reasons why you see only a few large corporations generally dominating certain sectors of the economy. The regulations are a nuisance to large corporations but they can just pass the cost onto the customer. However, it makes it more difficult for smaller corporations to enter these sectors because the burdens of regulations are harder for the smaller corporations to bear. Take a look where the Secretary of the Treasury usually come from – large financial corporations. Same as the people appointed to the Federal Reserve. Often these people leave office and go back to the same corporation. It makes for pretty cozy and profitable relationships. Of course the Federal Reserve and it’s ability to monetize the debt is one of the main reasons that the politicians and government can borrow all of this money. On the other hand the Federal Reserve is lender of last resorts and can bail out the large financial corporations that are deemed to large to fail or the government can just bail them out with our hard earned money by taxing us.

helluvawreck
https://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#28 posted 07-11-2012 05:31 PM

EPJartisan and lwllms

I agree with your assessments even though I fall into that category of “old, retired, on medicare, and SS”.

“Trickle down did not work”, neither did the “Bushwacking” but many still blame the one in office who is attempting to apply the proper remedies. I do not understand why people can’t see that.

Thank you both for your insight!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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Swyftfeet

169 posts in 825 days


#29 posted 07-11-2012 06:36 PM

I was once a heavy conservative, I grew up listening to Rush agreeing on most of the talking points. I joined the Army out of high school, patriotic duty and college money rather than took debt ect and so on.

I began to realize something, Austrian/Conservative/Friedman Economics only work when those who have the control of capitol and government have strong moral and patriotic compulsion on what is right and wrong. I can’t even do the mental somersaults and cognitive dissonance required by someone who makes less than 300K to defend the Neo-conservative® or Blue dog(D) Corporate agenda. You have been sold a steaming pile of crap, and gladly play in it.

A lot of adults who had voting power in the early 80’s to mid 90’s sold their children’s future so they could buy cheaper junk and play the stock market on instantaneous gains and booms associated with cheaper cost of goods without any forethought to the effects of the future. The wealth gap is increasing, this is extremely dangerous to our economy. When the middle class, the largest consumer in the world, is disappearing due to massive economic restructuring that allowed the majority of production to be moved overseas, we have a serious problem. Where do you think the money to support a healthy society comes from?

When the guy who steals millions gets less of a sentence than the guy who steals a car, we have a problem.

I can’t even understand people who defend health insurance companies and for-profit health care. An unpreventable accident that prevents you from working or having a treatable disease can literally bankrupt a working class family. When the people who you pay to look after your health make more money by not providing you with the care, this is a major conflict in interest, yet some of you think its all hunky dory.

When the cold war was over, we had the chance to divert massive military spending into increasing infrastructure, providing health care, and supporting research and development. Instead we sold out.

Japan electronics and auto companies who controlled massive wealth sold crap to us at a loss for years until they wiped out or brought our major firms to the brink of disaster. They had the foresight to think past the economic quarter, they thought 20 years ahead. Americans only cared and still only care about the almighty quarter revenue, it’s ridiculous…

I personally don’t have any or all the solutions, but it’s every easy to see that our government has been sold to the highest bidder. There are roughly 3000 lobbyists per elected official, they care nothing about the middle class, they are the foot soldiers of the plutocrats.

And we are still cheering at Red vs. Blue like we are at a football game. It’s almost like when little Texan with big ears who foretold in the presidential debates, where he was practically laughed off stage, that NAFTA and other free trade agreements would be an economic apocalypse.

How many of us wish you voted for Perot back then? I’d wager a lot.

-- Brian

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#30 posted 07-11-2012 06:53 PM

Swyftfeet,

Good points and hindsight is always 20/20 (Perot).

We, the American public, have always wanted immediate gratification so the quarter by quarter results fits well into that but are NOT a good way of actually creating a future of any substance.

The Japanese think long term and that’s what made excel in many of our markets.

As I have said before, we are the U.S., we have always managed to find a solution to our problems but we better do it soon or ….. !

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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Swyftfeet

169 posts in 825 days


#31 posted 07-11-2012 08:28 PM

Also wanted to point out that China is today’s Japan economically. Any company who outsources to China should be openly villified and have a severe import tax placed on any goods shipped from there into the US.

The living conditions over there are beyond repulsive once you get away from the “tourist/economic zones” that they want you to see. I was there last year on business where our product is OEM on another companies install. Good produced here sold there. Thats a new one!

Anyway poverty everywhere outside of that! trash in the streets ect.

I saw a woman burning circuit boards over an open flame to recover lead and whatnot while a baby was strapped to her frontside. This was across the street of the plant where I did my install. The plant building was a dump for the first three levels, empty with standing waste water, holes in the walls, boarded up windos ect. However, on the fourth level, it looked like I walked into a midtown NY office building, fresh paint, new carpets, cubes, computers ect.

The American/business zone where I slept looked like your average well off American city. Fancy restaurants, nice shopping and all the good stuff.

Its Fricken Lala land over there! I have a gut feeling that they are heading for a crash. It may be extremely hard on us when it happens, but I hope we don’t squander the chance to become world leaders in manufacturing again.

-- Brian

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DrDirt

2446 posts in 2396 days


#32 posted 07-11-2012 09:58 PM

A lot of adults who had voting power in the early 80’s to mid 90’s sold their children’s future so they could buy cheaper junk and play the stock market on instantaneous gains and booms associated with cheaper cost of goods without any forethought to the effects of the future.

Not sure how you get to this cause/effect relaionship. Other than that folks like to just project back to a time they had no control/say in – and claim generational battles. While today supporting the democrat in the WH that is overspending by 3 times what Bush did.

Perot was right about NAFTA being bad – - -but I still would not have voted for the whacko shouting about the Cubans being out to kill him at his daughters wedding and admiral Stockdale for VP pacing in circles on the stage…during the debates.

Which candidates are you picking that were NOT leading down the road to ruin?

I don’t think Al Gore gives a flying crap about a middle class. He is raking it in flying his private jet around talking carbon credits….when his carbon footprint is the size of a village.

I think both parties sold us down the river – so I am not sure how you think it was any different back in the 80’s and 90’s… lest you thing Walter Mondale or Michael Dukakis were some kind of great leader/statesmen.

People have been choosing what they see as the lesser of two evils for a long long time. What is the RIGHT choice….not that “we need a third party” stuff – that is a copout that doesn’t exist.
What will you do THIS NOVEMBER that will change a damn thing.
Then remember that the “Next Generation” will be chanting about how you can’t trust anyone over 30 and it is all your fault because YOU had the voting power.

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#33 posted 07-11-2012 10:01 PM

I always find it funny that so many people know exactly what is wrong with the economy and exactly how to fix it.

So I’m going to give my opinion.

A countries economy has a natural state that it wants to be in from the amount of trade that goes on, the more manufacturing, raw materials being sold, or agriculture exported the more trade with a country happens. Manufacturing, exporting of raw materials and agriculture being exported are the only things that bring money into an economy. All of the oil we import and goods produced elsewhere being sold here make money leave our economy, sometimes for good. This is why we had to go off the gold standard in the 70’s because we would probably have no gold by now.

Now here comes the part that I dont think people want to hear. Since the early 90’s the government has done things to “stimulate” the economy thus making it operate above its natural state. Of course politicians who control this mechanism don’t ever want the economy to lag, even though sometimes it needs to just to get into the natural state that it wants to be in. Now over and over this happened so instead of the occasional small pain when things fell apart they really hurt, the fall was huge. This was cause by the stimulation being applied to often and probably too much, like a drug user going through withdraw in rehab.

The only thing going to help the economy is if things are allowed to reach their natural state, this natural state can probably be somewhat safely elevated by increasing manufacturing, increasing exports of raw materials, or exporting more agricultural items such as wheat and pork bellies.

To those saying that the government should provide more stimulation to the economy, did you forget that the housing bubble was caused by government stimulation by lowering the prime interest rate? This lowered the amount of money paid into interest, but people stupidly bought a house on payments and not on the cost and thus that allowed the cost to rise significantly while the paments stayed the same. This was compounded by people speculating and also using equity in their homes as income. I have several friends that took out home equity loans to buy crap, one bought a new laptop, a $1000 bicycle, and a new car with a home equity loan.

So my points are
1) the economy has a natural state it wants to be in
2) this natural state ebbs and flows, just let it
3) the only real stimulus can be made by bringing money in through agriculture, manufacturing, and exporting raw materials
4) using “paper money” to stimulate the economy is not a real stimulation and will just make matters worse at a later time
5) dont buy anything based on payments

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#34 posted 07-11-2012 10:10 PM

One more thing the US has a net import of 12 million barrels of petroleum per day, at $100 a barrel that is 1.2 billion dollars leaving our economy every day forever, 430 billion a year.

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crank49

3434 posts in 1625 days


#35 posted 07-11-2012 10:31 PM

EPJartisan said, “IT’s been 10 years since Bush convinced America that giving tax cuts to the “Job Creators” would make more jobs for America… WHERE THE HECK ARE THE JOBS!!!!!! it only happened AFTER Obama started to change things away forom Republican policies.”

What the hell rock were you living under in 2000 to 2005. The frigging unemployment rate was at about 4.5% during those years. There were jobs everywhere.

This thread has been taken over by a bunch of Libtards who will lie about anything to make a point.
There is no way to reason with these people so Good Bye. Ya’ll just keep on deluding yourselves. I’m going to the shop now.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

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Bertha

12951 posts in 1347 days


#36 posted 07-11-2012 11:47 PM

Cubans being out to kill him at his daughters wedding
lol perot.
. He is raking it in flying his private jet around talking carbon credit
lol gore.
. The frigging unemployment rate was at about 4.5% during those years.
lol forgetting about 2000-05.
.
There is tons of lol in this thread.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#37 posted 07-12-2012 03:29 AM

Pat,

Yes but of that we export 1.6 million barrels a day!

I just happen to read it at oil exports

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#38 posted 07-12-2012 11:07 AM

oldnovice, that is why i said net imports

net imports = total import – total export

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#39 posted 07-12-2012 06:12 PM

Sorry Pat, I missed that!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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Brad_Nailor

2531 posts in 2611 days


#40 posted 07-12-2012 06:54 PM

Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

Sounds like somebody might need a diaper change..wahh

-- http://www.facebook.com/pages/DSO-Designs/297237806954248

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knothead

149 posts in 2602 days


#41 posted 07-12-2012 07:10 PM

Over here the journalists seem to think he’s doing well under the present conditions.Alistair

But most of Europe is ALREADY Socialist so it would make sense that they think he is doing right – We HERE do not want to be socialists so he is NOT doing right and hopefully in November he will be voted OUT.

-- So Much Wood - So Little Time! --

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waho6o9

4921 posts in 1231 days


#42 posted 07-12-2012 09:06 PM

You think lines are long at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles? You haven’t
seen anything yet.

Why wasn’t one Doctor hired for this fantastic program that Congress is
exempt from?

Over 16,000 IRS agents have been hired, SUCKERS.

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#43 posted 07-12-2012 09:09 PM

I would also like to point out the high unemployment in European countries, it’s even high when their economies are good because it’s very difficult to fire someone so the buisnesses don’t hire unless they absolutely have to.

Anyone been to France, the dining experience is really something. It takes about 3 hrs for dinner if you go to a resturant, one thing I noticed immediately is the resturants always seem understaffed. My hat goes off to the waitstaff in those resturants they get their asses worked off of them.

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EPJartisan

1056 posts in 1779 days


#44 posted 07-13-2012 02:20 PM

Hey patcollins.. I have been all over the world.. only in America and only Americans think like this about dinner. Try shopping at noon in Italy.. or getting the check at a cafe in London.. same thing. Americans are spoiled and want things fast and without interactions.. and are ugly to travel with because American’s take their culture with them> and American culture is very selfish and rude to the rest of the world. YOU may think to be correct.. but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. And your unemployment comment is a pure fabrication and spin… Germany has a “freedom of personal expression” law. They can’t fire someone for being acting like a overt gay man, can’t fire someone for having a nose ring. YEAH Imagine a government making you NOT discriminate. Sigh.. Americans.. sigh you just can’t see beyond our own culture and your own limited education.. and then you keep yourselves stupid. In France if you get the table, you get the table for the WHOLE evening. If you leave early, it tells them they sucked. Just as leaving a tip in Ireland is an insult to the staff, saying “Here have more money cause you obviously need more incentive to do better” And in Europe they have no desire to rush you out the door just to earn more money from the next guy.. that’s American thinking. And you are a guest in their place of profession.. not a client in their business.

And Crank49… from 2000-2005 I was working at UIC watching people loose their jobs, my parents lost thier jobs.. my sister lost her job.. two of my friends lost their jobs… our program to teach HIV research to health professionals was slashed and people I worked with for years lost their JOBS… what ROCK i was under????.. originally under Clinton I was in bright blue sky.. my ROCK was George W Bush

———- Proud to be an educated, smart, talented, successful, and compassionate American “LIBERTARD” who believes in “Liberty and Justice for ALL”

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

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DrDirt

2446 posts in 2396 days


#45 posted 07-13-2012 03:41 PM

So EP – I think you misread Pat’s message – he noted that it takes a long time and there are very FEW employees that are OVERWORKED and rushing around busting their Asses.
Not that they are inattentive and not willing to help – there just are too few employees

My Euro dining is quite different than yours – I was not in france, but Holland Jun 23-29 this year – and I found that in the city (Eindhoven and Amsterdam) where the restaurants are busy – you are treated as a client not a guest..

In Roosendaal and the less populated areas – the sidewalk cafe’s are nearly empty through the week – we ate in the central plaza – no cars but arouind the fountains with about a dozen restaurants, there were only 10-12 tables occupied at all. Dinner – a stuffed chicken breast with a ‘çeral bowl’ of french fries for sharing, carpaccio as the starter and sorbet was 34.5 Euro, + 5 for 2 biers – so I had a 39.5 EURO bill 48 dollars/pp for ouside cafe with the standard Chalk sandwich board entrance.
No wonder the places were empty – who can afford to eat out at 50 dollars per person for the outdoor cafe….something 4 or 5 stars served indoors would require a mortgage.

I know you hate Bush – - but I certainly think Hillary would have us much further towards recovery if not growth than Barack.

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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patcollins

995 posts in 1519 days


#46 posted 07-13-2012 05:47 PM

EJP tell that to the 25% enemployed in Spain, the 22% in Greece and the 15% in Ireland. Also tell that to the youth that rioted in France about 6 years ago because not being able to get jobs. The buisness owners can’t fire employees that suck, nothing to do with discrimination.

Your the one that can’t see beyond your own stuck up opinion, I was giving the French dining experience a complement and a complement to those working in the resturants for working their asses off. You decided what I was saying without even reading it, maybe you should open your mind to what others are saying.

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EPJartisan

1056 posts in 1779 days


#47 posted 07-13-2012 07:20 PM

Um Pat.. I was not arguing against you on the dinner part, just that there are other cultures for you to ponder as well. Europe is going through hard times, but it has little to do with how difficult it is to fire an employee. I have many many friends as well across Europe. I was making some points for a greater picture other than the one you personally painted rather simply … and therefore slightly misleading.. Please, entertain the concept without taking it personal. :) But what does Spain, Greece and Ireland;s unemployment have to do with the “Freedom of Personal Expression” in Germany’s law which prohibits discrimination? A real example can not be blended back into an abstraction comparison, without losing it’s impact. So I do not understand this. OH and yes I am stuck on my opinion, it’s not a bad opinion and I am fully willing to admit and apologize when I am wrong.. and change… so many other people on here seem to not have this luxury I guess. But I am more stuck on my own arrogance and ego… HA ….beat ya to that insult.. LOL.

But I think you are misunderstanding me… I try to remember to use the word “one” instead of the plural and general “you” so I did not mean you personally.. I did not do this in my last post. I meant “one” and therfore focused on no-one in particular. My apologies.

And Dave, I totally agree, I really wanted Hillary back in 2008. I didn’t misunderstand Pat, I witnessed all that he and you give as examples, but I like to travel and meet people, talk, and ask about their culture. I travel with indigenous people to get out-of-way experiences, you can’t other wise get. Been like this my whole life and honestly.. dinning has not changed at least since 1995 when I first went to school in Ireland. Never are they inattentive or unwilling to help.. only a different cadence of work ethic I find no one has pointed out but me.

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

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EPJartisan

1056 posts in 1779 days


#48 posted 07-13-2012 07:38 PM

It also reminds me of when we came back from Italy this last time. We had an amazing time and found no faults. but on the flight home we were stuck with a travel group and all they did on the way home was bitch and complain about the prices and the way people treated them and how long they had to wait for everything.. One woman was outraged that she paid $15 for a hamburger and coke. First I was appalled she actually was in Italy and got a hamburger and coke. When we inquired where they went.. they went everywhere the tourists go. And that was their problem… when you bring the ugly American out, Europeans gag a little and even in the US of A we rape tourists who don’t know better.

But I have not been to the Netherlands yet… and there is all of south America.. in a year I could have a radically different opinion. LOL

-- " 'Truth' is like a beautiful flower, unique to each plant and to the season it blossoms ... 'Fact' is the root and leaf, allowing the plant grow and bloom again."

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oldnovice

3761 posts in 2022 days


#49 posted 07-13-2012 07:44 PM

The European dining experience is totally different than the U.S. experience in all but the very most expensive establishments like AT&T field where the S.F. Giants play (just kidding).

With respect to Hillary and/or Obama I don’t believe it would have made much difference with congress the way it is and nearly of the industrial world facing really tough times.

I just recently heard about the foreclosures in Spain that are happening there for the same reasons as here in the U.S.! In Spain however, if you lose your house to a forclosure, you still owe the money! You can’t walk away, you can’t file for bankruptcy …. now that is tough to swallow!

-- "I never met a board I didn't like!"

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DrDirt

2446 posts in 2396 days


#50 posted 07-13-2012 08:52 PM

Roosendaal netherlands. population 66000 – and is the end of the railway heading south. You can of course continue into Belgium and the food in Antwerp is much much much much better than dutch cuisine…. unless you really like vegetables boiled until they are fully shapeless mush. and they LOVE Asparagus…one of the apetizers is just called “6 kinds of asparagus”
After a week you start to wonder if they eat any OTHER green vegetable.

The people are teriffic.. you just come away thinking “my god how does anyone afford to life here?”
I was there for work – so spend the day in their offices and meetings, one to things they mention is that people rarely go out since adoption of the Euro. An when they do it is never as a family for dinner – only gelato or a coffee/dessert.
Back during the Euro conversion the exchange was about 2-2.5 Guilders to the dollar.
At introduction 1 dollar was 1 Euro.,...my colleagues said basically all the restaurajnts just changed the currency sign and not the price. so now the sandwich that was 6 guilders was 6 Euro – so 100% inflation overnight.

Interesting that the hotels and room taxes are not that bad. I stayed in the Hotel Central right in front of the train station, and the room rate was 92.5 Euro/night and the Toiurist Tax was 1.05 Euro/night. no other VAT or anything.
But Eating is really really pricey – and not because of it being a tourist trap – Roosendaal is as far from that as it gets about like foreigners coming to visit Minot North Dakota in January.

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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