All Replies on Made in the USA time to put up or shut up

Interesting! Thanks, Pat. We’ll see what becomes of it.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Henry David Thoreau

Apparently, Google is planning on assembling their media player here in Silicon Valley, but the parts will be manufactured elsewhere. I also heard that the assembly process will be highly automated so it isn’t like there will be a large uptick in the emplyment picture.

High labor and environmental regulation costs are what drove much of the manufacturing away.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

The asinine tax laws of the US didn’t help either.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence Wake Up America!! Please read; http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

Well. Google only made 39 BILLION Dollars last year. 95 or 98% of it on “Click Throughs”.

I guess they’re trying to figure out how to get out of “The Poor House”.

Yumpin Yesus!!!

-- ENJOY YOURSELVES GUYS!!!

Of course the assembly process will be highly automated, humans can’t reliably do the type of soldering required of small double sided surfaced mount circiut boards. That doesn’t matter, the jobs this creates will be fairly good jobs, not to mention for every 1 manufacturing job created 5-10 service sector jobs are created as a result.

This is a precipice of electronics manufacturing in the US, if it succedes then more may follow. If it fails and proves that Americans will not pay more for goods manufactured in the US that can easily (cheaply) be shipped from over seas, it could be the last time anyone tries.

Of course the parts are going to come from elsewhere we are talking resistors, capacitors etc that are 10 for a penny. These components are low cost “dirty” manufacturing, by that I mean manufacturing that uses chemicals and produces waste that costs alot more to deal with in the US than in other parts of the world. The assembly and deiign jobs are fairly clean and is exactly the type of manufacturing that needs to be done here./

”.....for every 1 manufacturing job created 5-10 service sector jobs are created as a result.”

When I hear those kind of claims, I have to wonder why we don’t put at least 20% (1 in 5) of the working age population into manufacturing jobs. If your ratio is correct, the other 80% would be in service sector jobs and unemployment would be a thing of the past. – lol

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

Ok…..mighty fine…..!!!

-- " Don't ever wrestle a pig in a mudhole....he'll be having more fun than you..!!

Greedy corporations is why manufacturing went to China.

Greedy corporations is why manufacturing went to China.

Now there’s a really lame argument. The only duty of a corporation is to provide a product or service at a price that allows it to pay the costs of production and yield enough profit to pay it’s investors and plow something back into itself for upgrading/improving it’s operation.

When a business sees a competitor providing their products or services at a lower price, they either find ways to remain competitive, or they die.

High labor costs, regulatory compliance, and the consumers desire for “deals” are what drove businesses overseas – or into bankruptcy.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

Greedy corporations is why manufacturing went to China.

Insane Liberal Tax and regulation policies have had more to do with that than anything else.

Everyone seems so bothered by profits, makes me wonder if they really hate the money or the fact that they don’t have it.

-- So Much Wood - So Little Time! --

In reply to Sawkerf and knothead;
In my opinion (opinions are much like a—holes, everyone’s has at least one), corporate greed is the main reason manufacturing left the USA. True, these companies want to make a profit, who doesn’t.
That is the reason Harbor Freight is doing well with sales. Cheap junk from China. I’ve stated my buying rules else where on LJ’s. I buy by the ABC rule, Anywhere But China.
My mechanic tools are made by Snap-On, they cost more, are made in the USA, and they last forever.
You hit the nail on the head (well, this is a woodworking site) knothead. Insane liberal gov policies have driven companies away.
Looking at the Auto Industry, unions haven’t helped much in one way but they also made the Middle Class American too. Gov. employee unions are taking cities broke and Stockton, Ca is the latest example of that.

I’ll continue to buy American made products whenever I can and not buy junk from China.
Hopefully, by doing this the job I save might be my own.

Never under estimate the stupidity of the general public.
~Scott Adams~

Cheap junk from China… ...and not buy junk from China

I’m seriously no fan of “Made in China”, but casting everything made in China as “junk” just isn’t right.
I’m sitting at my Macintosh computer, my wife at hers – both “Assembled in China” – build quality – jolly excellent.
As someone pointed out in another thread when the topic started turning to “Made in China” – they’ll make to whatever spec, be it high, or low, they’re asked to. Problem often seems to be that whoever is ordering from them just isn’t asking for “high”, presumably because they know they can make more profit selling higher volumes of “low” quality.
This is interesting – we’ll see if the consumer is prepared to pay more, potentially “just” for a “Made in the US” sticker.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence."

knothead -
Yeah, I could have mentioned taxes as a separate item, but I think of them as just another regulatory issue. I also do not understand peoples aversion to profits!! Virtually everyone with any kind of pension or retirement plan is counting on those evil profits to support them after retirement.

PineChopper -
I can’t agree with your belief that anything made in China is junk. Some things are, but some things are as good as anything you’ll find.

IMO, labor unions have been both the best and worst things to happen to the “middle class”. The changes in pay and working conditions which they forced have been pretty much enacted into labor law. Unfortunately, many of their demands border on absurdity. Somehow, labor and management forgot that they need to work as partners rather than adversaries.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

Greedy corporations is why manufacturing went to China.

That arguement is only valid if China never had any manufacturing. All it takes is one company making widgets in China to make all the companys in America making widgets seem overpriced. Suddenly the only widgets being purchased are the ones from the Chineese company because they are cheaper, the other companies determined to not go out of buisness have to follow suit and move their manufacturing to China or another place where they can make them as cheaply.

Suddenly the only widgets being purchased are the ones from the Chinese company because they are cheaper

This is true if all widgets are identical. If not, it is possible for companies to compete in terms of quality. I, and many others here, have some widgets made in the US and Canada by LN and LV that were bought based on quality rather than price.

-- "Too much hurry ruins the body. I'll sit easy … fan the spark" - I. Anderson

Chuck -
You’re quite correct about varying quality, but you and those “many others” are actually a tiny segment of the total market for widgets. A far larger segment of that market is more interested in price than anything else and believe that lesser brands are sufficient for their needs. Many times they’re right.

Don’t kid yourself that LV and LN are sacrificing profit for quality. They need to show a profit just as much as Stanley or Buck Brothers. They’re just using a different business model.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

I could count the number of things I own that are made in China on one hand unless I included herbs.
I certainly agree with the labor unions not wanting to work with companies to maintain a profit. If any company can’t stay profitable, they go out of business. I think everyone realizes this rather simple fact of life.
Workers in China endure sweat shop conditions to earn less than a dollar per hour.
Buck Knives is suppose to be moving their manufacturing back to the USA. They realized that people are willing to pay more for a quality product made here rather then a foreign country.
I’m a part-time wooder hoping to become a Full-Time wood worker.
I was an auto mechanic for 15 yrs. Most mechanic buy Snap-on Tools that are made in the USA. They cost 10x more then the made in China junk that Harbor Freight sells but Snap-On doesn’t break unless severely abused.
The point is you will buy what you need and can afford. As a mechanic, I needed high quality and not cheap.
When looking for wood working tools that I don’t already own, I look for some kind of compromise, at the moment.
Great thread though and Thanks to All for the imput.

About ten years ago I did some engineering work for a client’s new product.
I went to look for a manufacturer for the product and got laughed at by USA manufacturers when I stated I needed my per unit cost to come in under $1. (It was a simple item)

Ultimately, I got the items produced in China, to my specs, for a whopping $0.12 each. Who is laughing now?

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

Well DS251, Buck Knives use to pay a whopping $0.58 per hour in China but they were losing enough sales that they decided to move back to the USA. Now they probably pay $12 – $15 per hour with some benefits. I’ll start buying Buck Knives again, Thanks!

~Never under estimate the stupidity of the general public~
Scott Adams

I guess my point was, that above $1 that product wasn’t marketable. American manufacturers scoffed at trying to do it and didn’t even want to try. USA made was my first preference, but it got shot down by USA manufacturers who refused to step up to the plate.

When China can make the same product to the same quality standards for 1/8th of the price that USA manufacturers CAN’T or WON’T make it for, that means we have a long way to go to get competitive in the Global market.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

DS251, If American manufacturing didn’t even want to give it a try then it was there loss.
Does Mexico have much of a manufacturing base?
I know they do some types in Monterey, Mexico.

Did they not even want to try, or is it possible that they knew their business well enough to know that they couldn’t make your product for less than $1.00 each. How many did you plan to order? Unless you were willing to commit to a large number their tooling costs alone could easily go over your number.

This is somewhat analogous to the customer who asks me to duplicate an Ikea piece for an Ikea price. It just can’t happen. I’m a one person operation making one piece at a time. Ikea cranks out their stuff by the shipload.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

Good point Sawkerf. But then labor in China is $0.50 per hour too, hence the low quality. You get what you pay for, as the saying goes.
An order of 10,000 with cash money will get a better deal then an order for 50 on credit.

I’m not convinced of the validity of that argument, PineChopper. I have immigrant Chinese neighbors and a Chinese sister-in-law who tell me that those manufacturing jobs are a step jump improvement over what existed just a few years ago.

While they aren’t close to U.S. wages and working conditions, they’re highly sought after and are creating the beginnings of a middle class in China. I don’t know if 50 cents an hour is correct, but pay rates have to be looked at in terms of the local cost of living – not what we consider adequate.

As for quality, the Chinese can and do work to whatever quality standards are required. Poor quality Chinese goods are more about low quality requirements than low capabilities.

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

The “Corporate Greed” mantra is long past being lame. The things that have driven jobs overseas can be, for the most part,laid @ the feet of the government. High corporate taxes. The companies do not pay taxes the buyers do as it is in the product markup. Regulation. Regulations are beyond the pale and they grow and grow. Litigation! Need I say more? It is too diffecult to start a business in this country. The government makes it seem as though they do not want a business to start up and prosper. The politicians disparage big business and use them as scape goats. .This is not a business freindly nation. If business did not pay taxes their prices would go down and be more competative on the world market. The same for regulation and litigation. Both have to be pared back.
All of this adds to the cost of products and the buyer is paying for it.

-- Jerry

The order was for 200,000 pcs. The USA mfg thought it should cost me $3 each.
As it was, I sold the product as the OEM rep into wholesale distribution at $0.40 and made more than 300% profit.

Is it any wonder that corporate America has been drawn offshore?

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

Sawkerf and Gerald, I agree with both of your statements. China does have a growing middle class with the help of the manufacturing jobs that use to be here. The article I read about Buck Knives stated that the employee at the Chinese manufacturing plant were making $0.58 per hour. That might be the average wage for that particular area of China. An electronics firm may pay $2.00 an hour. I don’t know what the comparitive wages are in China. Living in San Francisco or New York city is going to cost more then living in Newton, Kansas. So, yes, that has to be taken into account determine prevailing wages for any location.
The US tax laws and environmental laws have had a negative impact on all businesses. There is no doubt about that.

Mexico has the manufacturing base that we take down there.

The thing in Mexico is they don’t have the EPA breathing down thier necks, so regulations are lax and there are some areas that are industrial cesspools.

I did a Kitchen for an HP executive who was tasked to build the exact same facility that he had in Phoenix down in Juarez, train his equivelant (replacement), close the Phoenix plant and lay off his employees, then, got laid off himself.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

I heard yesterday that 90% of the American cars imported into China have to pay tariffs. I think we should do that on their products to put pressure on the market to favor American made goods here.
Also, take a look at the ads from Menards. they have a lot of products that are made in the USA. I was really surprised.
We should be giving tax breaks to American manufacturers and cut out any tax breaks for off shore companies.
The whole tax system is ass backwards in my view! Tax laws are bought by lobbyists for these big profit corporations. How many millions does a person need to make in one year?? It used to be that companies made a reasonable profit. Now they can exploit all the other countries and turn a huge profit doing it…at the expense of the American middle Class. I’m glad I lived when I did and I won’t be here to see the next revolution when it comes. We cannot continue to be run by the two parties that only think of them selves and re election funding. they base all their decision on that instead of the common good. Their sense of being royalty is killing the economy, American jobs and common sense in this country.

I think you struck a nerve, Pat!!

-- Jim Jakosh.....Practical Wood Products...........Learn something new every day!!

A Jeep Cherokee costs about $190,000 in China. Free trade is a one way street to hell for us, U.S. Remember Ross Perot and the “Giant Sucking Sound” of jobs leaving the US? The sound is ending, most of the good middle class jobs that can go have gone ;-((

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence Wake Up America!! Please read; http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0