All Replies on **Updated w/ ?** Getting a Ridgid 4512 Table Saw this weekend! Any advise?

You must be very excited oh the waiting LOL anyway have fun. Alistair

-- excuse my typing as I have a form of parkinsons disease

Be sure to have help getting it out of the box. Darn thing is heavy.

-- Failure does not stop me, it makes me try harder..... because I'm crazy.

Steve – Some of the R4512 have had an alignment problem….the blade to fence alignment changes when the blade is raised or lowered. I’d check for the issue right from the start before putting too much time into it. The blade alignment is adjustable, so don’t worry about it being absolutely dead on until you’ve confirmed that the alignment doesn’t change with the blade elevation. Once you’ve cleared that hurdle, set it up, get it aligned well, buy a decent blade for it, take some pics, and post them here! Enjoy!

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

You’ve got a lot of set up and alignment to do. Take your time and don’t get frustrated. I just spent 3 days (not full time) setting up my new bandsaw. Get a good drafting square (cheap investment) from an office supply for indexing all the parts. Time well spent will yield good results.
Good luck, and that’s not a negative. I’ll say again——TAKE YOUR TIME.
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

Yep! Pretty excited here! Been waiting on this awhile. Having Father’s Day and my birthday (Monday) back to back helped. Wife says, “Happy Anniversary” too. Thanks for the advice. I’ll check on the blade elevation alignment issue first thing. Probably won’t get to really get into it until Monday.(sigh)

Thanks again,

Steve

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

Enjoy your new saw. Take the time to tune it properly and buy a good blade(s).

-- Don't rollerskate in a buffalo herd

I opened the box and things look ok so far. Still have to check over all the parts using the parts list. I have not checked the alignment problem with the blade elevation because Im not quite sure how to proceed. Can I just take it out of the box and put the blade on and use a square to track the movement?

I have also been reading up on the PALS alignment here and on other forums. Some of the posts state they didn’t make one for the 4512’ but I saw one on peachtree. Does anyone have information these? Are they work the $20 investment?

Steve

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

I don’t think you need to assemble it any farther than just putting the blade height adjusting wheel on there and a blade. Bring the blade up almost to the top of its travel. Not necessary or desired to take it hard against the stop. Place something on the table at the rear of the blade (like a ruler) so it’s just touching the blade. Crank the blade down one or 2 revolutions on the handle and watch the ruler. Raise the blade UP one or 2 revolutions and watch the ruler. If you see the blade drift away from the ruler, or if the blade pushes the ruler sideways, you have the alignment issue. No special measuring devices needed. It’s that noticeable.
If you have this issue, just put it all back in the box and take it back and exchange it. Look at serial numbers on yours and whatever you exchange it for. If they’re close to sequential…. probably going to be the same.

The good news is, not all of them have the problem. The bad news is, nobody has been able to FIX it and Rigid wants you to take your brand new saw to an authorized service center for a warranty repair. They won’t send you the parts to fix it.

Congratulations, getting new tools is just like x-mas. It sounds like you are limited in your experience on a table saw (“I’ve used one a few times”). All the alignment and adjustments will not save a finger (it will just cut it off with more precision) if you don’t practice safety. Understanding how to make safe use of your new purchase will insure many happy years of woodworking. The use of feather boards, push sticks, jigs for complex cuts, crosscut tables, etc. will help you. Just had to comment on safety issue because the table saw is probably the most unforgiving machine in a woodworking shop. Good luck and safe cutting!

There was a post on another forum a few months back saying that the PALS didn’t fit the R4512 like they’re supposed to, but with some grinding he was able to get them to work. They’re a terrific alignment aid…the help hold alignment, and help fine tune it. $20 well spent IMO. A good blade is a great investment too…it’ll help optimize your purchase….save the stock blade for the neighbor’s wood!

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

Charlie – thanks for the response. I will give it a go tomorrow.

Bullhead1 – thank you for the safety concerns. I am certainly a novice but no cutting will take place until I have the proper safety equipment. I’m still shopping for featherboards and push sticks. That’s also on the list for tomorrow.

Knotscott – if all is a go on the blade elevation I will be placing an order for the pals. Thanks for the imput.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

I thought aligning this saw was really easy without any aids at all and in total took me about 20 minutes. You do need to fully assemble the saw to check for alignment issues IMO. Assembly was not that bad, and I completed it all myself with a little assistance getting it upright. All in all, it took me a few hours.
1 – Don’t follow the instructions. They say to tap it over with a hammer.
2 – Do not use a ruler or a straight edge. You just bought a precision machine! treat it like one. Get yourself a dial indicator with a 1 inch full sweep. My father is a machinist, I borrowed one of his but it had a 5 thousands full sweep, that is a little too precise.Attach it to your miter gauge and measure the run out with the blade all the way up
3 – if it less than 2 or 3 thousands, you are probably ok, if not, take the back of the saw off and slightly loosen the 4 bolts.
4 – Use a 36” bar clamp to move the saw into alignment. The clamp will hold the alignment in place so you can re-check, then tighten the bolts without it moving on you. If alignment is good, tighten the bolts
5 – lower the blade and check again. If it is the same as it was cranked up, put the back of the cabinet on and crack open a nice cold soda (no beer around power tools!). If it changed, you are going to want to return the saw or have it serviced. Do not try to adjust it out, it’s not going to happen, you have a defective saw.
6 – Don’t forget to align your fence now. you just changed the blade’s alignment. For this I would recommend getting a machinest’s square. They are far more accurate than a carpenters square, and you will surely find other uses for it.

I have a newer one, and mine stays true. Beware that it probably will not be true out of the box. A few suggestions that will make your life easier aligning the saw:

As far as safety, the saw comes with a push stick that will do the trick. Make sure you fully understand how, where and when to use a feather board

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Might have a defective saw. Placed the ruler against the rear tooth and dropped the saw blade to the next tooth. It stayed flush against the next tooth.

This pic is flush.

Next I raised it one tooth and this is what I got. I could push the ruler back against the tooth a small amount. Looks to be near a 1/16th inch.

Funny thing is when you lower the blade it goes back to flush against the ruler.

Does this constitute a defective saw?

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

No, you can see your problem in the pictures.

Please read my post above, this will get your saw aligned :)

1 -The teeth on your blade alternate directions. one tooth will be more to the right, the next tooth will be more to the left. If you look closely at your pics, you will see what I mean. What you want to do is measure the SAME tooth on the front, vs the same tooth on the back.

Also you want to check the alignment from front to back, not just in the front. That will not tell you anything. If you do not have an cannot get a dial indicator, get a combination square and place it in the miter gauge slot. Extend the ruler until it touches the tooth in the front. Move that SAME tooth to the back, and slide your combination square in the in the gauge to the back, WITHOUT adjusting the ruler. It should be the same. This method will get you until about 1/32nd, which some would say is acceptable, but your cuts will be off by that much every 10”

So it’s tough to say if you have a defective saw yet.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Lumber joe,
I hope I’m explaining this right

The saw is actually still in the box. I just turned it over and put on the blade and the elevation wheel. All I’m measuring is the change when I raise and lower the blade. This was supposed to be the problem on some saws and it couldnt be fixed. I havent tried to check if its parallel to the miter slot since i havent unboxed it yet.

When I measure against the tooth and blade is raised the teeth move to the right slightly. When i lower the blade the teeth all slide back against the ruler.
Now,I just checked against the blade and not the teeth both up and down and it didn’t gap that I could tell. Does this sound right?

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

Send it back! :P

-- My terrible signature...

I’ve never witnessed the issue in person, so I’d yield to Joe’s wisdom, but what you describe and show sounds like it might have the “dreaded plague”. Does the deviation grow as your raise the blade even higher?

If so, do any of you folks know if shimming the trunnion brackets on one side would fix this?

This is crude, but shows the basic idea:

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

NO!!!! Do not send it back. It is completely impossible to measure run out the way you describe. The only thing you are doing now is wasting sawdust making time :)

First you need to understand WHAT you are measuring for. Your goal is to make sure the blade is completely parallel to the miter slot. You are measuring for run-out – which is the difference from the front of the blade to the back of the blade in relation to the miter slot. This really isn’t possible until you assemble the saw. You do this by measuring the difference from the FRONT of the blade, to the BACK of the blade. As I mentioned, the teeth are pitched in alternate directions. One tooth will measure closer to the right than the one above or below it will. This is why you MUST use the same tooth. Do it first with the blade all the way up. After you get that aligned (which you will be able to, follow the instructions I posted above about the bar clamp), lower the blade and repeat the procedure. If it WAS aligned with the blade up, and now it is NOT aligned, you have a defective saw.

I am pretty sure they fixed this issue some how. Everyone with a new R5412 and the craftsman cousin have not had this issue. I got mine in March and my alignment has been true since I initially set it, despite MANY blade height changes.

In addition, you likely won’t be about to tell with a ruler. The tolerances need to be tighter than the human eye can discern against a gap in a ruler. You can get it close, but like I said, close is 1/32”.

The manual explains what you need to do to check in the alignment sections. Follow that to the letter before you think you have a problem and take it back.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

In addition to using the same tooth, you have to measure the same tooth from the front to the back when you change heights. I guess it’s possible for the blade to shift alignment during height changes, but as long as the measurement from the front of the blade to the back of the blade in relation to the miter slot remains the same, you do not have anything to worry about.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

SawDust, this may make is easier. I just took a few pics of my R5412 (excuse the sawdust)

Step one:
Put your combination square tight against miter slot. Slide the rule until it makes contact with a tooth while making sure it is tight against the slot

Step 2
Rotate your saw blade so that SAME tooth is now in the back of the saw. Slide your combination square along the miter track until you are in position to measure the same tooth:

After that, lower the blade and repeat the entire procedure. Like I mentioned, it doesn’t matter as much that when you change heights, it matches the same measurement. What matters is the front to back of the blade measurement is the same.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Also Knotscott, I would love to get my hands on one of these with the alignment issue, and I actually do troll craigslist for them. I found two, but they weren’t cheap enough for me to bite. I have had my entire saw apart before assembly, because, well, that’s what I do. I take things apart to see how they work. I used to get in BIG trouble for that as a kid.
I’m willing to bet it’s due to shoddy casting that they fixed. There some seams in places I wouldn’t want seams if I was the engineer. I bet this could be fixed with a die grinder, some shims, or a combination of both.
I’d even like to see pictures of trunions out of the table on the ones with alignment issues.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

I have one with the problem.
I am an engineer and worked in a foundry for 30 years.
I know shit castings when I see them.
This saw is just that.
The alignment with the miter slot is trivial compared to the overall problem.
When being raised, on a defective saw, the entire trunnion assembly does the hulla.
It tilts in relation to the table top plane, and also twists in relation to the miter slot.
Best way to fix this POS is with 20lb sledge and a one way trip to the remelt bin.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

Lumberjoe, Thank you for taking the time with this. I really appreciate it. I will get it assembled and measure for runout as you have suggested.

Thanks again,

Steve

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

Michael, you agree the casting seems to be the problem? Have you considered taking a die grinder with a carbide burr to it?

Also I don’t think the alignment to the miter slot is trivial. I’ve actually never measured the height difference to make sure the blade is the SAME distance from the miter slot, because I just zero the dial indicator. To me that does’t matter. My saw has no run out (after alignment) at full height. It also has no run out with the blade 2” up, or 1/2” up. To me that is all that matters. I could care less if it shifts, as long as it does so evenly.

I suspect mine does not shift. I don’t get any “zinging” when using my ZCI at any height.

I am not an engineer by trade, but I was educated as one in college- I just took a different direction in the real world. I have worked on and squared enough cast iron heads and engine blocks to also notice crappy castings. I would agree these are not the best, but it’s a 500$ table saw, I’m lucky it even has cabinet mounted trunions and a belt driven motor at this price. Half a thousand on a fully decked block/head that will see forced induction or high compression is comparable to 3/4” of an inch of run out on a table saw in the unacceptability factor – which is why I also don’t think you can the alignment perfect without a dial indicator.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Whoa! Did you say cabinet mounted trunions?
The Craftsman 21833 and the Ridgid 4512 and the Grizzly and Dayton clones all have table mounted trunions.
I haven’t heard of any problems with the Ridgid 4511 and similar saws that had cabinet mounted trunions.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

Sorry, I meant table. I’ve been typing in command lines for 14 hours today. I didn’t know the R4511 had cabinet mounted trunions. That is the granite top saw, correct? Also do you know if the suspiciously similar looking Porter Cable that (b)lowes sells is cabinet or table mounted?

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Sawdust. I had the same exact problem less them a week ago it was a jet proshop. Jet came out and took my saw to repair it. They couldnt do anything amd replaced fhe saw. You’ve definitely got an alignment issue I’d return the saw but maybe someone here can help you fix it.

Iggles, hopefully that won’t have to happen thanks to lumberjoe.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

The PC (model TS-270 I think) is the one that looks very similar and is around the same price.
Table mounted trunions.
Flimsy fence, in my opinion.
Plastic gear in blade lift mechanism.
Same saw sold under Hitachi brand.

-- Michael :-{| Diapers and politicians both need to be changed often; and for the same reason.

”I didn’t know the R4511 had cabinet mounted trunions. That is the granite top saw, correct? Also do you know if the suspiciously similar looking Porter Cable that (b)lowes sells is cabinet or table mounted?
”

Joe – Yes, the R4511 was the granite top saw made by Steel City/Orion…same guts as the Cman 22116, SC 35925.

The PCB270TS also has cabinet mounted trunnions by definition, but they’re not the big yoke style type that span the whole cabinet…they’re very similar to table mounted trunnions in size, but bolt through middle of the cabinet strut instead of hanging from the table. It’s worth noting that it also has a plastic elevation gear, that’s not suitable for the application IMHO….plenty of complaints logged on that issue.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

This isn’t a runout problem, nor is it an alignment problem. Please stop giving him advice on how to align his saw. This is a check for a defective height adjustment.

The problem is that when you RAISE the blade, the back of the blade moves (usually to the right) and as soon as you relax tension and lower the blade just a touch, the whole back of the blade moves back (usually to the left). You can’t adjust this out. You can’t shim the trunions to correct it. It’s a problem with the castings and the machining of them. I spent DAYS working on this and going back and forth with Rigid. I REALLY wanted to keep my saw. It could not be corrected and Rigid wanted me to take it in to an “authorized warranty repair center” to get it fixed. They would not send me the parts to do it. Closest “authorized warranty repair center” is about 6 and a half hours away. The one they said was only an hour and a half away, I called and they told me they stopped doing Rigid warranty work because Rigid stiffed them on payment.

So please stop having him waste his time with alignment when he simply needs to check if his saw is staying true when raising lowering. At this point it doesn’t MATTER if it’s aligned. If it stays true, THEN he can align it. If it doesn’t stay true, then he needs to stop wasting time on it.

As a former millwright, I can be pretty sure they’re machining green castings. Cast iron needs to sit a while before it gets machined. It needs to cool slowly and completely and then age before machining. Failure to do this results in a piece that warps after machining. In today’s “hurry up and get this out” production environment, that notion doesn’t sit very well I’m sure.

Charlie, how can you accurately test this WITHOUT testing for run out? When you lower the blade, the tooth you just measured will now be below the table. The next tooth will be pitched in the opposite direction, so you cannot get an accurate reading. Lowering it one more tooth will bring the blade low enough that you hove to move your square toward the front of the table a bit as such you are not measuring in the same position, so I am unsure what measurement is being recorded, other than a fractal increment of a run-out test.

After I read your post I did this with my saw, just measuring the back of the blade from full height to just barely having a tooth over the table. The measurement was dead on however I moved my square to the rear of the blade to almost the center. Because my reference point changes every time I move that combination square, what am I actually measuring?

As I mentioned, even if it does move a bit, as long as there is NO run out, what is the issue? You are still dead on to the miter gauge. If you aligned your fence correctly you will still be dead on to the fence as well.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Why bother with the actual teeth? Just mark the tooth for reference and check the plate near that tooth.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

lumberjoe,
You don’t have to measure this exactly on a tooth. You can measure this at the base of a gullet. On a 10 inch blade you can go a quarter inch from the gullet in towards the center. When the R4512 has this issue, you don’t need a dial indicator. It’s very pronounced. You can see the back edge of the saw blade moving left and right as you raise and lower the blade. And I’m talking just raising/lowering a tiny bit. If you put “up pressure” on the blade, mine shifted left at the back. As soon as I relieved that pressure and just barely started the blade going down, it shifted back to the right. Mine was well over a tenth of an inch. VERY visible to the naked eye. You don’t have to run the blade through anything like full travel. Just putting pressure on it in one direction or another will manifest the defect if it’s present. My runout was less than .002. Closer to .001. But every time I adjusted the blade up or down, the alignment with the miter slots would be off because somewhere in that mechanism for raising and lowering, there’s a twist in the casting…. may have happened after machining… and the entire casting that carries the arbor is pivoting.

So forget about being exactly on a tooth. The suggestion that you set a ruler against the back of the blade is just so you can see it moving easier.

Bring the blade up. Set a ruler against the right side of the blade disc as far to the back as you can without being on a specific tooth. Lower the blade about an eigth of an inch. If the back of the blade pulls away from that ruler, it’s an issue.Don’t even BOTHER trying to align it or check for runout. Runout won’t matter and you won’t be able to keep it aligned.

Charlie, thanks for the explanation. I couldn’t grasp what you were talking about because my saw does not have that problem.I didn’t realize the difference was so extreme it was visible to the naked eye.I just performed the procedure you described and my blade stays put. I guess this proves there ARE R4512’s out there without alignment issues.

Blade jacked all the way up (had to take the ZCI off for this)

I moved the dial ever so slightly, nothing noticeable, The ruler was in the same spot. I gave it a few turns, still nothing:

Brought it down even lower, still no gaps

You also mention this happens under “pressure”. I assume you mean when you engage the armature to raise or lower the blade. I paid very close attention to the ruler while I had pressure on the dial. Nothing moved. I also tightened the knob after adjustments, nothing changed again.

Now the interesting question. When there is no pressure on the dial after you made height adjustments, do you have run out?

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Charlie and lumberjoe,

I’m guessing that this should be done on both sides of the saw blade, not on a tooth. I will give it a go and get back with you guys.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

If I am understanding charlie’s procedure, you will know instantly. Put your ruler dead against the flat part of the blade – not on a tooth. Make sure it has enough pressure to stay there but not be pushed in or out. Unscrew the lock and attempt to raise or lower the blade. As soon as you put pressure to the scew, the blade will either:

1: do nothing (celebration time)
2: jump into or away from the ruler (harsh words, digging for the receipt and an angry drive back to HD time.)

If you do need to return it for a different one, I would check it using this method in the parking lot. That is, if I am understanding the symptoms and identification process correctly. Like I said, my saw does not do this at all, so I have no clue what a bad one actually looks like.

Also out of curiosity, chalked up the end of my rulers. I put a 5 thousands feeler gauge against the blade and pushed the ruler up to the feeler gauge on both sides at the same time – one on each side. I moved the blade both up and down a few times. No chalk on the blade at all.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Just did Charlie’s method on both sides. NO Gapping!! Yeah, Time to assemble and align! Thanks for the help. I’ll get it going and continue to post progress.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

YAY!
It’s a great saw and I know you’re going to really enjoy it. I wish mine would have worked out.
SawDustNeophyte,
If you have some long clamps…. I was having issues trying to align mine as it would “sneak” back out of alignment as I was retightening the trunion bolts. I put a big clamp on it and it stayed. Didn’t fix my underlying problem, but it aligned quite easily that way. One bolt up at the front is really hard to get to, but if you reach in from the back you can do it. Remain calm, find the allen bolt with your fingers, and then slip the allen wrench into it. Took me a couple tries and it’s a bit of an awkward position, but definitely doable. You might also find it’s aligned ok out of the box. Mine was really close.

lumberjoe,
There are absolutely R4512 out there that don’t have this issue. And the ones that don’t have it are nice saws.
And, yeah, by “pressure” I mean just take up the slop in the lead screw that engages the rack. On mine if I raised the blade and the handle of the adjustment wheel was near the top, just letting go of it and letting the wheel go towards “down” a half turn on its own would show the problem. Raising the blade all the way is where you see the problem at its worst because you have that ruler as far back on the blade as you can get. If you did this with the blade only about half way up, the problem would seem to be less, but that’s only because you’ve now had to move the ruler toward the front more, moved it closer to the pivot point, so the movement is less exaggerated.

Glad this worked out for SawDustNeophyte. What a great father’s day gift! Congrats!

I agree, I love this saw. There are only 2 things I don’t like, one I can fix, one I can’t

1 – the fence sucks. The bump in the middle WILL affect your cuts if you work close to the blade. This is fixible with a new fence

2 -Not fixable, but this saw is pretty tall for a table saw. I’ve gotten used to it, but when I use other saws I really wish mine was a more standard height. I’m not a tall guy

Congrats on getting one of the good ones! From what I read, we are in an elite club.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Lumberjoe, what bump in the middle of the fence are you referring to? I have one of these saws and I don’t have a bump in the fence.

-- Save lives, ease suffering, reduce morbidity and mortality, stomp out pestilence and disease, postpone the inevitable, and fake compassion. The Paramedics Creed

That’s good news! May there be much saw dust in your future!

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

Bobmedic, You do, you haven’t noticed it yet. It’s were the two bars meet in the middle.

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Lumberjoe, Yes I have this saw. That bump is in the rail not the fence. I had a slight bump when I first put it together but it was easily fixed with a few swipes with a mill file. I thought you where talking about a bump in the middle of the rip fence. My bad.

-- Save lives, ease suffering, reduce morbidity and mortality, stomp out pestilence and disease, postpone the inevitable, and fake compassion. The Paramedics Creed

Thanks for the assistance, guys. Not to get it put together. Unfortunately this has to wait until I paint the deck replacement I just finished. Might get to work on the saw in the afternoon tomorrow. I’ll keep you posted.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

Well I have the saw mostly completed. Life really got in the way. Here’s my question. I cannot get past adding the rails. The front and back rail are on and I set the fence on as the instructions indicated and lined the cursor line up. All looked well, but when measuring the gap between the bottom of the fence and the table I cannot get them very close. The front measures .038 inches in the front and .047 inches in the back using a feeler gauge. I have tried many times to loosen the front and back rails to get them to get close but to no avail. Is .009 in. too much? Or am I just being over cautious?

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

Bump

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*

I’ve never even measured that. The important thing for me is the steel extensions being flat to the cast iron. The rails are adjusted for that. I would say if your fence is square to the table you are good. By my naked eye the front and the back look similar. You may also be able to adjust the fence itself

-- http://www.etsy.com/shop/KandJWoodCrafts

Thanks Joe, I thought I may be obsessing. I’ll continue post more later.

-- So many tools, so little money. *heavy sigh*