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View RussellAP's profile

Corrugated bottom on plane?

by RussellAP
posted 05-10-2012 08:14 PM


23 replies so far

View jacob34's profile

jacob34

454 posts in 921 days


#1 posted 05-10-2012 08:21 PM

I just watched a video on hand planes http://www.woodworkingonline.com/2009/04/17/podcast-40-three-hand-planes-every-shop-should-have/ where at the end the question was asked and he felt that it was a marketing ploy that serves no real purpose. Although I do not think he was an expert on the subject and I am not either.

-- so a bear and a rabbit are sitting on a log

View BTimmons's profile

BTimmons

2127 posts in 1142 days


#2 posted 05-10-2012 08:22 PM

The grooves mean that there’s less material that’s contacting the board surface that the plane rides on. That means a little less friction, and it also means less time is spent flattening the sole since you don’t have remove so much metal. You see hollows and grooves cut into the backs of Japanese chisels and plane blades, too. For one thing, the steel they use is extremely hard so it makes sense to have less surface area to flatten while sharpening.

-- Brian Timmons - http://www.BigTWoodworks.com

View HillbillyShooter's profile

HillbillyShooter

4604 posts in 949 days


#3 posted 05-10-2012 08:23 PM

The corrugated bottom reduces drag and is more beneficial in the larger planes, i.e. 5-1/2 and above.

-- John C. -- "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." George Washington

View Dwain's profile

Dwain

323 posts in 2516 days


#4 posted 05-10-2012 08:28 PM

I would agree with the marketing idea. It seems that after building a pretty good plane, Stanley (Bailey) needed to find a reason for us to buy other planes. I agree with every said above, but I don’t think those reasons are really appreciable. I know all of my type 11’s are corrugated. I just like them more…

-- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there is no end to what you CAN'T do

View ShipWreck's profile

ShipWreck

536 posts in 2409 days


#5 posted 05-10-2012 08:33 PM

I have two “C” planes in the collection so far. They do smooth alot easier.

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

2951 posts in 943 days


#6 posted 05-10-2012 08:34 PM

So the C designation means corrugated.

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

3455 posts in 2617 days


#7 posted 05-10-2012 08:38 PM

Russell, I’ve got both. I can’t see any difference in performance. There might be an argument as to whether the “c” planes are easier to flatten (if needed), but I don’t know of anyone who has whined about not having “c” soles.
To me it is kinda like which pasta do ya like best.
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

View Don W's profile

Don W

15037 posts in 1224 days


#8 posted 05-10-2012 08:48 PM

A lot of experts agree its was a marketing stint. I agree with Bill, I’ve tried to tell the difference and can not.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View cabmaker's profile

cabmaker

1311 posts in 1466 days


#9 posted 05-10-2012 08:53 PM

For me, I prefer a smooth sole simply because it is easier for me to sight the iron alighnment. I do have a few C s however but that is not by desighn. A C sole will function with a bit less resistance but not enough to loose any sleep over. Jacob, your observation is accurate, there are many, many videos on the subject and some are conflicting. Best to talk to someone that have used the things professionally.

View Don W's profile

Don W

15037 posts in 1224 days


#10 posted 05-10-2012 09:01 PM

I believe it was Paul Sellers that didn’t like the corrugated soles because he thought they would get clogged. I actually prefer a smooth sole on a jointer, although both my #8 and #608 are corrugated.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Smitty_Cabinetshop's profile

Smitty_Cabinetshop

9924 posts in 1275 days


#11 posted 05-10-2012 09:05 PM

In use, there is none.

-- Don't anthropomorphize your handplanes. They hate it when you do that. -- OldTools Archive

View Brett's profile

Brett

621 posts in 1340 days


#12 posted 05-10-2012 09:50 PM

It may seem counter-intuitive, but grooves shouldn’t have any affect on the amount of friction that a plane experiences when it’s pushed across a board.

Friction force is equal to the downward force (due to gravity plus the force you are exerting on it) times a coefficient that depends only on two materials in contact. For cast iron and oak, that coefficient is 0.49. So, if your plane weighs 7 lbs (like a jointer) and you add 3 pounds of downward force to it, the friction force as the cast iron plane is pushed over an oak board is 4.9 lbs. It doesn’t matter how much or how little contact area there is between the cast iron and wood; the only things that are important are the downward force (10 lbs) and the coefficient of friction. If you put paraffin or a light oil on the sold of your plane, the coefficient will go down, perhaps to as little as 0.075, which means your friction force would be 0.75 lbs.

(Whew—that’s enough geek talk for one day.)

-- More tools, fewer machines.

View David Craig's profile

David Craig

2135 posts in 1765 days


#13 posted 05-10-2012 10:25 PM

Personally, I would think the chief advantage would be in flattening the plane itself. Corrugation would translate to less material to be removed from the plane body.

-- There is little that is simple when it comes to making a simple box.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14753 posts in 2333 days


#14 posted 05-10-2012 10:44 PM

A friend of mine hand planed a truck load of walnut stock blanks. He told me the corrugated was much easier to push.

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View ShipWreck's profile

ShipWreck

536 posts in 2409 days


#15 posted 05-10-2012 11:07 PM

To be honest, I feel no difference in resistance/friction on the shaving stroke between the smooth and the corrugated.

View lwllms's profile

lwllms

544 posts in 1938 days


#16 posted 05-10-2012 11:38 PM

There are disadvantages to corrugated soles. If you’re working the edges of stock that’s thinner than the corrugations are wide, you can end up with the stock trapped in a corrugation. I only had this happen once but then I didn’t use corrugated soles on thin stock after that.

The biggest issue is the wear pattern that develops. Look at the sole of a corrugated vintage plane that’s seen much use and you’ll find wear streaming off the ends of the corrugations. In severe cases, like the 607 below, the wear pattern can cause grooves through the mouth. In this case it would take significant lapping to remove the grooves that stream from the ends of the corrugations.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14753 posts in 2333 days


#17 posted 05-11-2012 03:03 AM

Wonder what causes that wear in line with the corrugations?

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View RussellAP's profile

RussellAP

2951 posts in 943 days


#18 posted 05-11-2012 03:05 AM

There is a void in the corrugation which allows the wood to be higher,then when it comes out of the corrugation it wears.

-- A positive attitude will take you much further than positive thinking ever will.

View Loren's profile (online now)

Loren

7567 posts in 2305 days


#19 posted 05-11-2012 03:10 AM

In resinous woods like pine it gives less surface for the resin
to gum up the sole. This in my opinion is the friction factor
thing. In hardwoods it’s possible there’s less drag due to
suction as the board becomes very flat, but this is difficult
to prove one way or the other I think. With the sappy
softwoods though the corrugations help the waxed plane
slide better in my experience.

-- http://lawoodworking.com

View Martyroc's profile

Martyroc

2708 posts in 963 days


#20 posted 05-11-2012 03:47 AM

Hi Russ, I have 2 planes, both types I use them equally, I have never noticed a difference but I will try to pay more attention now. I know as long as I keep them razor sharp, I get a good smooth surface and some lovely wooden ribbons.

-- Martin ....always count the number of fingers you have before, and after using the saw.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile

TopamaxSurvivor

14753 posts in 2333 days


#21 posted 05-11-2012 04:17 AM

I suppose my buddy was using a jack plane to flatten his roughed out walnut stock blanks, but I don’t know for sure. He talked to quite a few people to get ideas and said the corrugated plane made a world of difference. He was offered $100,000 for his pile of stock blanks and turned it down. When I say truck load of walnut, it was truly a truck load. He had a lot of experience. I asked him why he didn’t get a planer. He said he was getting too fat ;-)

-- "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View russde's profile

russde

52 posts in 1496 days


#22 posted 05-11-2012 11:04 PM

Remember how a lot of young folks with import cars had wings on their trunks a few years back? Why? They didn’t go fast enough to create any down force to speak of…
Same idea with the corrugated soles. Looks cool (I’ve got 2, I like ‘em, can’t tell any performance difference, but, I like ‘em), that’s it.
My three cents…
Russel

-- Upright and taking in nourishment--must be a good day

View John's profile

John

341 posts in 2455 days


#23 posted 05-12-2012 12:44 AM

Brett’s friction math is cool!

just spent 40 minutes scraping old paint and pitch and who knows what out of the ‘C’ in the 6C I’m rehabbing… at the moment I prefer flat soles

-- John - Central PA - http://affyx.wordpress.com

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