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HF Dust collection question

by 6t5Goat
posted 03-24-2012 04:30 PM


32 replies so far

View pmayer's profile

pmayer

607 posts in 1810 days


#1 posted 03-24-2012 05:04 PM

I wouldn’t worry too much about going 5” from the DC to the separator, but keep the lin short between the two. The bigger concern is keeping the amount of flex hose to a bare minimum because it kills performance. I recently did a test where I measured CFM on a port with mostly PVC and a couple feet of flext at the end, and then the same length duct but this time 14 ft of flex at the end, and the CFM dropped from 850 to 550. There were other minor variables so it wasn’t a purely scientific test, but the difference was dramatic. The “real world” result was that 850 CFM kept up with my planer just fine, but 550 CFM didn’t cut it. I would consider building the Thein baffle into the DC itself, and using a single 10’ x 4” flex hose and I think that DC will keep up with any machine in your shop under most conditions.

-- PaulMayer, http://www.vernswoodgoods.com

View DIYaholic's profile

DIYaholic

14503 posts in 1419 days


#2 posted 03-24-2012 05:07 PM

5” ducting/connectors is/are difficult to source, according to posts here on LJs. I believe 5” MAY be available online, but probably not worth the added cost. I would go with 4” ducting.

Reducing ducting/hoses from 4” to 2-1/2” hoses creates too much resistance. Not only the CFMs (volume of air) are reduced, but the flexible hose also is an added restriction. Staight & smooth is the goal!!! Whether standard PVC, sewer & drain PVC or metal ducting, the “utimate” design should be as straight as possible and have as short of a run of flex hose as possible. ANY bend in ducting should be 45 degrees as opposed to 90 degrees. If neccesary, run 2 45 degree fittings with a short straight section (instead of 1 90 degree fitting).

I have the HF 2HP DC also. I have not run ducting yet, but I will be shortly. I’m more than likely going to use the 5” to 4” “Y” fitting that came with the unit and duct the shop with 4” metal ducting.

The other consideration for shop dust collection is an ambient air cleaner. The ambient air cleaner filters the air of the small (.5 micron) particles that the “Dust Collector” misses at the machine. It is the small particles that end up being inhailed & DESTROY lung function. You can do a search for shop made &/or purchased air cleaners.

Good luck, have fun & STAY SAFE in your shop.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View brtech's profile

brtech

710 posts in 1667 days


#3 posted 03-24-2012 05:22 PM

If you adding a trash can separator to the HF, then I think you are pretty much stuck with 4”.

If you are more ambitious, some jocks have moved and rotated the blower so that it’s a straight shot to the ring, and straight down to the separator. The motor is then vertical rather than horizontal as it is normally assembled. If you did that, I’d think about getting some 5” snaploc for the short runs from ring to motor and motor to separator. I notice that fireplace stores have 5” for some stoves.

I think you would be very happy with the Rockler system, but I also think a length of regular flex will also be just fine as long as the only thing you are doing is running from the separator to the tool. If you have a mix of rigid PVC and flex, you lose CFM fast in the flex.

Putting the Thien baffle in the ring is also a good option. The only downside is all the chips go through the impeller, and it’s harder to empty the bag than a trash can.

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#4 posted 03-24-2012 05:46 PM

5” ducting isn’t that hard to find, maybe locally it is. All my main trunks are 5” and only drop to 4” right close to the machines. With the exception of the table saw, that has 5” all the way to it. Long 5” runs are way better then long 4” runs. I got all my piping, 5” and 4” from Oneida. This was my 4th iteration of dust collection, shop vac and Craftsman 2-1/2” piping, 1HP dust collector and 4” PVC, Delta 1-1/2HP 1200 CFM dust collector and 4” PVC, and finally Oneida cyclone and 5” metal piping. Four times was enough, was not going to do it five times so this time I did it right.

Read all I could get my hands on on the subject, even industrial level design books. Leveraged Oneida’s engineers who convinced me not to go with 6” main trunks even though the cyclone’s inlet was 6”, definitely do not go with 4” main trunks, go with 5” mains trunks. I listened and was sure glad I did.

I have a Dwyer digital manometer and while designing and installing the plumbing used it with pitot tube to determine air flow velocity, CFM, static pressure, etc. so as to optimize it. As I said I wasn’t going to do it again.

I have a gauge connected permanently to the main trunk close to the cyclones inlet that measures static pressure and keep an eye on it telling me performance. I took measurements with it when everything was clean so I know what it should be reading for each machine thus any deviation could indicate reduced performance. Planning on and have a gauge to put on the exhaust right before the big filter that will indicate air pressure there, when the reading increases, time to clean the filter.

My point being, don’t skimp, do it the best you can the first time so you’re satisfied with it and won’t have to do it again like I did. But I will say, when I started this dust collecting thing nearly 20 years ago the options then weren’t anywhere near what they are today. You couldn’t even buy a dust collector locally like today and selection was extremely limited. So that in part fostered some of my iterations, but I eventually got there and don’t have to clean out machines like the Unisaw’s cabinet any more. Not at all. And that was my goal.

Can you tell, I hate cleaning up sawdust…

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View brtech's profile

brtech

710 posts in 1667 days


#5 posted 03-24-2012 06:03 PM

But the OP just spent $150 (mor or less) on a 2HP HF DC. Sure, you can get 5”, but at what cost?

If he can get to all his tools with 10’ of 4” flex, for sure, he doesn’t need 5” anywhere.

If the flex length is 20, well that’s pushing it, but it’s possible.

If you were running a main line down the shop with Wyes down to machines, a 5” main would be ideal on this DC. But 4” works. Lots of shops do that with this machine, as long as the runs are short, the bends are wide sweep or two 45s with a short straight section and the junctions are wyes, not Ts.

As with yours, while 5” may seem right, with long lengths, actually 4” may be better. Your cyclone has a lot more CFM than the HF DC.

An Oneida Cyclone and 5” mains sounds great. But also more than a bit above the price point here.

You can go read up at Bill Penz’ site. He says you need 5HP and 6” mains, with a well designed cyclone and excellent filtration. I’ll get there some day. Right now, my 2HP HF and 4” pipe works okay.

I will say this: the first thing you want to add to the HF DC is the Wynn Engineering 35A canister filter. It will make the most difference, both in increasing CFM and in decreasing dangerous dust particles. Drop in upgrade for this DC, nice folks to deal with, and the best investment in your health you can make beyond the DC itself.

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#6 posted 03-24-2012 06:14 PM

I realize 2.5 isn’t going to cut it..

4 inch PVC drain pipe is pretty cheap here.. 1 buck a foot.. I could really plumb my entire shop with that for under 50 bucks for pipe and fittings..

not counting blast gates and making final connections to each machine..

Are there blast gates that fit directly on 4 inch PVC drain pipe?

Will the PVC really flow that much more air than the flex pipe?

The Wynn filter is in the plans.. And I have a shop built HVAC type air filter already running..

View DIYaholic's profile

DIYaholic

14503 posts in 1419 days


#7 posted 03-24-2012 06:24 PM

Ditto what brtech said re: Wynn Enviromental 35A cartridge filter. I went with the NANO, but other (less expensive) options are available.

-- Randy-- I may not be good...but I am slow! If good things come to those who wait.... Why is procrastination a bad thing?

View brtech's profile

brtech

710 posts in 1667 days


#8 posted 03-24-2012 06:27 PM

Yes, my blast gates fit 4” S&D PVC just fine. They fit inside.

Yes, PVC is MUCH better than flex

Just remember: Wyes not Ts, wide sweep or 2×45 with straight, not 90s.

The thing is: you usually do hard pipe runs overhead. So you have to come up out of the DC, across to the drop, down to the tool inlet. The pipe length is often 2X what flex direct from the DC to the tool would be. PVC is much better, but is it 2X better? Probably not. But it’s a heck of a lot easier to open the blast gate than it is to snake the flex over and mate it to the tool.

You do have to remember to close the blast gates you aren’t using.

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#9 posted 03-24-2012 06:37 PM

This just got a bunch more complicated..

I’ve got lots of planning to do..

View ellen35's profile

ellen35

2595 posts in 2177 days


#10 posted 03-24-2012 07:02 PM

I got rid of the Y on my HF dust collector… replaced it with a nice piece of stove pipe reducer.

-- "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Voltaire

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#11 posted 03-24-2012 07:10 PM

As with yours, while 5” may seem right, with long lengths, actually 4” may be better. Your cyclone has a lot more CFM than the HF DC.

With all due respect, am I to believe you or Oneida engineering who know their products and what they can do I would have to assume better then anybody.

But also more than a bit above the price point here.

I missed the part where the OP mentioned a price point other then the fact he needs to spend more money which is pretty much a given.

You can go read up at Bill Penz’ site.

I have. And it’s Bill Pentz.

I was only relating my personal experience to provide insight and maybe provoke thought on how he may want to do it to get good performance and maybe avoid having to do it again or be disappointed. Where did I say anything in the context of “do this” or “do that”? The only thing I said that might even be close to that was don’t skimp, maybe I should have said try not to skimp.

I wasn’t the one that told him he wants to get a new filter although it may be a good idea. I respected the fact that I don’t know his budget.

This always seems to turn into a religious war.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#12 posted 03-24-2012 07:17 PM

Oops. definitely do not go with 4” main trunks, go with 5” mains trunks Taken out of context I can see how that might come across, that was Oneida telling me, not me telling the OP.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View brtech's profile

brtech

710 posts in 1667 days


#13 posted 03-24-2012 07:25 PM

On your Oneida Cyclone, I assume 5” is the right size. Oneida knows more than I do for sure.

On an HF DC, 5” is probably not the right size, but it depends on the duct length. If it’s short enough, 5” main and 4” drops probably would be ideal.

Oneida charges $16 plus shipping for 5’ of 5” snaploc. The OP is talking about $5 for that in 4” PVC. It’s always doable in 5”, it’s just expensive.

Don’t have a religion here. If I did, it would be Pentz’s (sorry about the spelling), which would be that you really need 1000 CFM at the tool.

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#14 posted 03-24-2012 07:53 PM

On an HF DC, 5” is probably not the right size

Well is it or isn’t it? I don’t know. And doesn’t look like you do either. But if I wanted to know to design something the best way I could I would take steps to find out and do testing or what ever it took and not make assumptions.

Oneida charges $16 plus shipping for 5’ of 5” snaploc. The OP is talking about $5 for that in 4” PVC. It’s always doable in 5”, it’s just expensive.

Yeah. So? It always cost more to do things better. I wish it didn’t. Then I too could be driving a Bugatti Veyron.

Once the best way to do something is known is then the time to decide whether it is worth the cost and that is up to the person doing it to decide, not us. And it should be based as much as possible on facts, not assumptions or probably’s.

But I will admit, I come from the school of Mike Holmes, do it right the first time. Ain’t their yet but I’m a heck of a lot closer then I used to be because I learned. And that is what I’m trying to pass on to others.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View Dave's profile

Dave

34 posts in 1759 days


#15 posted 03-24-2012 07:54 PM

You should also cut out the piece of metal on the face of the inlet that would normally stop any chunks of wood from going through the impeller. This really impeads on the air flow and with the metal impeller you don’t need to worry about hurting it.

These types of dust collectors need sufficient air flow and don’t really produce a lot of vacuum, so you need atleast 4”. Get rid of the cheap wye it came with and pipe everything with 4” SWV pvc. It is cheap and lightweight. My planer has like a 3” hookup so I am using a fernco fitting(rubber coupoling with 2 hose clamps). You can find them at hardware store in plumbing section.

I wish I could get better dust control for my router table. It will be a project to master before the summer is over.

good luck

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#16 posted 03-24-2012 08:00 PM

Lots of good info here..

Dave.. What is 4” SWV pvc? Sewer and Drain pvc?

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#17 posted 03-24-2012 08:10 PM

Soil Waste Vent it typically has a thinner wall. Just so you know I’m pretty sure you can’t use regular PVC fittings with it out of the box so that may limit your choices. Peruse the aisles at your local BB home improvement store and see what they have, I did that when I was using PVC.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#18 posted 03-24-2012 08:19 PM

Cool.. I’m off to Lowes.. I’ll buy 3 times more fittings and pipe than I think I need.. and return what I don’t use.. Just so I don’t have to make multiple trips..

Ordered 6 of these blast gates and they will be here on Tuesday..
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000223YN/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I’m a bit confused as to what to make the final connection to the machines with.. Just furnco fittings and more PVC.. or.. would heavy duty dryer vent work? Just for the short sections..

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#19 posted 03-24-2012 08:32 PM

Good choice on the blast gates, mine are all metal too. Rockler, if you have one around you does carry them, don’t know the price though, but they always seem to have 20% or like right now $5 off on $15.

Don’t use dryer hose, it is a pressure hose and not made for vacuum and could collapse over time. Hard to believe but possible. Although in really short lengths maybe not. Again if you have a Rockler or Woodcraft near you they carry the correct type of hose for this application. Some of the bigger ACE Hardware’s and Menards around here that carry dust collection stuff may have the hose too.

Be tough but doable to go PVC all the way, but the last 6” via flexible hose is a good trade off.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View geoscann's profile

geoscann

258 posts in 1024 days


#20 posted 03-24-2012 08:37 PM

TRY this uncap the other side of the y and run your 2.5 hose let me know what happens.

-- BIG geo ---Occam,s razor The simplist answer is often correct

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#21 posted 03-24-2012 08:38 PM

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I just looked and Rockler has a sale on those blast gates right now. I’ll leave it at that…

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#22 posted 03-24-2012 08:48 PM

Curt.. Thanks for the heads up on the sale..

Geoscann.. when I uncap the other side of the Y.. the bags fill up on the DC.. but there is no noticeable difference (+ or -) with the 2.5 hose…

View mark4345's profile

mark4345

55 posts in 1167 days


#23 posted 03-24-2012 09:01 PM

I dont recall the physics behind it, but you cant step down all the way from 5 inch to 2.5. something with the pressure from going from big to small…it just doesnt work.

View geoscann's profile

geoscann

258 posts in 1024 days


#24 posted 03-24-2012 09:12 PM

YES that what i wanted to show to you now take a piece of duck tape and start covering the y until it starts pulling hard i had the same problem with mine. and thats what i did to fix it.i know i seal my table saw up real good but it would not suck up near as good as before i sealed it up its has to be able to draw air in to work correctly.

-- BIG geo ---Occam,s razor The simplist answer is often correct

View mark4345's profile

mark4345

55 posts in 1167 days


#25 posted 03-24-2012 09:59 PM

Ahhh geoscann…yea that sounds like it can work…with a 2.5 inch hose, you would end up covering all but the same 2.5 inch area on the y with the duct tape. That would make the pressure equal and pull correctly….

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#26 posted 03-24-2012 10:21 PM

geoscann… Wow.. That really improved the air flow.. I opened up the other 4 inch then covered a half of it with a piece of 1/4 plywood.. the 2.5 inch side had a noticeable improvement in suckage..

View derosa's profile

derosa

1557 posts in 1580 days


#27 posted 03-25-2012 02:51 AM

Blankman, brtech is probably right to start with. Check out http://www.portercable.com/uploads/PCD/Documents/News/182DustCollectors.pdf and http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/dust-collection/figure-dust-collection-needs/?page=3 The HF unit can’t handle a lot of static pressure loss before it loses out on sufficient pressure to keep all the particles in suspension. Your cyclone has significantly more power to work with the 5” ducting. The caveats are that the test is old, at the time the HF unit used a 30micron bag and had a plastic impeller, now I believe the bag is supposed to be 3 microns which does allow for better airflow thus increasing power slightly and I have no idea if the metal impeller does anything. The testing though does show that switching to something like the 35a filter may add as much as 80cfm from the testing in the article. I also wonder if moving the blower up to eliminate the hose run to the filter and bag ring would also have a positive impact. The collector did have enough power to deal with some static pressure loss so that making some modifications may allow it to actually run 5” but I wouldn’t bother with just an out of the box unit.

Geoscan, thanks for the info. I’ve been also using the 2.5” shop vac hose till I have the cash for a collection of hoses, ruining a new bandsaw blade tonight didn’t help my progress. I also noticed it wasn’t more powerful until the modification but it was a lot quieter and didn’t need to be emptied as often so I lived with it.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#28 posted 03-25-2012 04:47 AM

Rev Russ, there’s that word “probably” again.

I read that article in Wood magazine, back in 2008 when that issue was delivered, that indeed was one of the better ones.

How do you know my cyclone has significantly more power to work with the 5” ducting because I don’t, that is an assumption, albeit maybe not a bad one but still an assumption. What if I told you the HF has more HP then my cyclone, then what? My point is the assumption pitfall.

How do we know what the HF unit can handle, is there a fan curve for it? I’d like to see one. Hardest thing to get from any manufacturer if they even have one. And I suspect if they do and it’s bad is why we won’t ever see it.

Static Pressure is the resistance to flow, 4” pipe has more resistance to flow then 5” pipe, then 20” pipe, so why not use 20” pipe there will be even less losses, yeah, good idea. Well except for what you mentioned, Velocity Pressure a.k.a. air velocity, and that’s based on CFM. Not enough CFM, then not enough air velocity, better plan on cleaning out your pipes.

But the static pressure is not known until run length is known. And the CFM is not known. So without that information no one can’t say whether or not this or that will work. All based on probably’s and assumptions.

I’m not advocating that he use 5”, never did, but to rule something out without facts? I would run tests exactly like they did in that Wood magazine article, and did run on my system, but I have the equipment required to do the tests which I realize everyone does not.

All I’m saying, and what I’ve been trying to get across, is basing decisions on “probably’s” and “assumptions” and not hard cold facts is not sound. But then again, I have an engineering background and that’s why I think the way I think I’m told.

And I’ll say this again, I was only relating my personal experience to provide insight and maybe provoke thought on how he may want to do it to get good performance and maybe avoid having to do it again or be disappointed.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View derosa's profile

derosa

1557 posts in 1580 days


#29 posted 03-25-2012 07:02 PM

Blankman, there aren’t too many large assumptions here. Your cyclone has more power for two reasons, the design of it makes it better then a HF unit and the HF unit is not 2hp but 1.5hp based on actual amps used; actual amps used appears in the test I listed and in others from other magazines. Further the test above clearly shows the results of the HF unit with 5” piping and if you create a hypothetical run if 5” pipe the math can be done to determine how well it is likely to work. Not well unmodified. Finally, according to you Oneida helped you size everything out and they are meticulous and wouldn’t make suggestions that wouldn’t work well or it is bad for their business. Yes there are suppositions but it doesn’t mean that you can’t glean facts from them.
From the testing done in the above, the HF unit can afford just under 6” of static pressure loss at 4” pipes vs. 3.5” or pressure loss with 5” pipe. Examine what pressure loss is from the wood article and you realize that 5” pipe isn’t realistic for any real runs of pipe vs. 4” which will do a little better. Obviously you don’t have this issue therefore there is also no probably, yours has more power and the OP should stick with 4” on the stock HF unit.

-- --Rev. Russ in NY-- A posse ad esse

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#30 posted 03-25-2012 09:04 PM

Rev Russ,

the test above clearly shows the results of the HF unit with 5” piping

Ah, ok. What length of 5” piping? I looked and I looked. And I couldn’t find it. If I missed it tell me. They used a 10’ piece of pipe with a horn on the end that can be adjusted to simulate longer pipe. At 3.75” of static pressure for that HF DC what length of pipe was being simulated? They don’t say.

The HF model tested was 45378 the current model is 97869. Even HF may improve things.

Even using the old model stats from the graph my calculations say:

That a 100’ of 5” metal pipe at 575cfm will have:
static pressure 6.83”
air velocity 4217 ft/mn

That’s well over the ~3.75” that the graph says that old DC can do. Who has a hundred feet? My longest is 20 some, even if I add in the elbows I doubt I’d hit it hundred feet.

So my calculations tell me that old HF DC can do 40’ of 5” pipe.

40’ of 5” metal pipe at 575cfm
static pressure 3.75”
air velocity 4217 ft/min

No where in that article did I see anything that reported lengths, they just said 5” this 6” that and created pretty graphs. They graphed static pressure vs cfm which is a fan curve and useful but what was the air velocity? They didn’t say. Do we “assume” 3500 because they mentioned 3500? Or 4000 because they mentioned 4000?

Ok so I did the math, looks like it would work. I, personally, would still test it though for validation.

And yeah the 4” pipe, elbows, wyes, may chew up that 40’ fast, who can say? I haven’t seen any sketch with lengths.

The the “assumptions” is it won’t work.

Ah. And get this. More calculations.

Using PVC.

60’ of 4” PVC pipe at 400cfm
static pressure 5.95”
air velocity 4583 ft/min

Ok so 5” pipe can do 40’ with that HF DC and 4” pipe can do 60’ based on the fan curves from that article, 20’ more. Not leaps and bounds or orders of magnitude better in my book but better. If it were twice or four times as much I would be impressed.

But, 5” won’t work… It will.

But this is why after 3 iterations of dust collection and wasn’t satisfied, for my 4th I did the math, got a digital manometer (had a liquid one) and checked it all out. AND that was my experience that I was passing on to others.

Oh and the only engineering Oneida did for me was to tell me to reduce the cyclones inlet from it’s 6” diameter to 5” within some distance from the cyclone, can’t remember the exact number, and use 5” for all main trunks, no bigger. The rest I did myself.

I’d like to get my hands on one of those 97869 HF DC just to measure it. Had a buddy that was going to buy one, don’t think he did yet. Maybe I’ll prod him. And borrow it. :-D

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View BlankMan's profile

BlankMan

1487 posts in 2097 days


#31 posted 03-26-2012 12:58 AM

So I got to thinking after I did those calculations, why would anybody want to use 5” pipe if 4” works and it can go farther? For a moment there I was stumped.

Then the light came on.

CFM

4” 400cfm
5” 575cfm

Then another light came on. That was why I wasn’t satisfied with my first 3 attempts at dust collection, sawdust would build up in my Unisaw cabinet. I was using 4” PVC. It didn’t have enough air flow for the table saw.

Doh!

Now that it has 5” all the way to it, 20 some feet, I don’t have that problem. And when I was using 4” PVC the run was only maybe 8 feet.

-- -Curt, Milwaukee, WI

View 6t5Goat's profile

6t5Goat

71 posts in 1756 days


#32 posted 04-01-2012 11:21 PM

So I went with all 4 inch PVC sewer and drain pipe.. and since my tools are all stationary, 0 flex tubing..

the only flex in the entire system is from the DC to the Trash can separator..

I found that the Street elbows fit PERFECTLY over the 4 inch tool outputs.. winner..

My separator is no longer 99% efficient like it was with the shop vac.. I do get some chips in the clear DC bag.. but 95% stays in the can..

Overall.. I’m pretty happy with the 4 inch pipe… I’ll get some more CFM once I get the Wynn Filter.. I’m probably not collecting all the fine dust.. but I think I’m doing much better than I was..

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