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War on traditional American values?

by GregD
posted 966 days ago


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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#1 posted 966 days ago

One apparent threat (not sure whether it was stated or implied) was the US might reduce or eliminate aid to countries that don’t go along. That might appeal to your fiscal side (lower govt spending).

-- Greg D.

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Howie

2656 posts in 1527 days


#2 posted 966 days ago

Sounds like it’s the guy with the most weapons or biggest hammer. Just like always

Cr..that was what Roosevelt intended when he said “Walk softly and carry a big stick”. Which is why the US thinks it has to stick it’s nose into everyone elses business. I don’t think it’s necessary in this day and age. It’s time to take care of the American people, on our shores.

Greg, I agree.

Would we be in a recession if we weren’t p&^& away 10 billion a month in Pakistan,Afganistan or Iraq?

-- Life is good.

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CharlieM1958

15670 posts in 2823 days


#3 posted 966 days ago

I’m 100% with you, Greg, on the human rights aspect. What adults do in their bedrooms is their business. And I just don’t believe anyone chooses to be homosexual any more than they choose their gender or skin color.

On the other side of the coin, it’s a very thin line between standing up for human rights, and meddling in other countries’ affairs. My biggest concern is that, in general, it seems like the U.S. is a lot more likely to take a stand for human rights abroad when we have a financial stake in the region in question.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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Sawkerf

1730 posts in 1673 days


#4 posted 966 days ago

I’ve always wondered just what “basic human rights” really are? Who defined them? Are they written down somewhere? Does everyone agree on them?

-- Adversity doesn't build character...................it reveals it.

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IrreverentJack

724 posts in 1447 days


#5 posted 966 days ago

Sawkerf, Here is a good definition/description/history of basic human rights . -Jack

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#6 posted 966 days ago

what Charlie said

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#7 posted 966 days ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sghwe4TYY18

Merry Christmas

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1518 days


#8 posted 966 days ago

Charlie +10

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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IrreverentJack

724 posts in 1447 days


#9 posted 966 days ago

Greg, The people decrying this as ’a war on people of faith’ are the same homophobic bigots that lobbied African governments to execute their people for being gay. It could be said this new ‘diplomatic effort’ is only undoing some of the damage caused privately by extremist American religious groups. -Jack

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#10 posted 966 days ago

I would guess that most people running for POTUS wouldn’t put stuff on their web site unless they thought it would appeal to a constituency that was in some way more important than the constituency it might offend. Ron Paul is a notable exception it seems. At any rate, I am definitely a member of the offended constituency in this particular case, and I’m curious to hear a bit from those on the other side of the issue.

It seems to me that different people have different ideas about the meaning of “basic human rights”. In some cases it seems that people agree on the general notion but not on all the details. Personally, I think we are still in a process of figuring out some of the details. In other cases it seems that someone has completely perverted the general idea for the specific purpose of supporting their own agenda.

-- Greg D.

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#11 posted 966 days ago

every single evil little person on this planet, has their own agenda and make no mistake about it

the more a person is educated, the greater the faith they have in mankind. Science removes doubt, opens doors, has proven again and again that the earth isnt flat, its actually a very round ball, very small and as per Carl Sagan, a very pale blue dot.

Tolerance is “faith”………..in something bigger then us.

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#12 posted 966 days ago

Hey Jack,

It seems to me that the people decrying this as a war on people of faith are slandering an awful lot of people of faith. What little I remember of my upbringing as a Catholic was that while a great many things were sinful, not many were of a nature such that there was a desire to make them illegal also. I suspect most people who value religious freedom can understand that it can only be preserved if the standard for determining behavior that should be illegal is very different from the standards that distinguish behavior that is pious from that which is sinful. I suspect most people of faith can accept this also.

The next bit is deciding when private behavior of consenting adults comes anywhere close to the standard for behavior that should be illegal.

-- Greg D.

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#13 posted 966 days ago

Hey Moron – indeed I do have my own agenda. but at the moment it says, “go get some sleep”! And tomorrow I’m makin’ some box joints…

-- Greg D.

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#14 posted 966 days ago

tomorrow, after a good nights sleep

the earth will not be “flat” when I open “my” eyes.

whats next, a pic of the “arc” with the koala bear on it, munching down on eucalyptus leaves ?

jesus has always taught, as his disciples have taught, that the enemy is the man who looks back at you, when you look in the mirror.

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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moment

2103 posts in 1285 days


#15 posted 966 days ago

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#16 posted 966 days ago

thank you liddle buddy

i wonder if the Shepard knows the koala is gay ?

or if the kid knows his parents are gay ?

and I dare ask…………”who gets a Christmas card “ ?……..the queer koala bear or the dog ?

who would ever start such a stupid tea time subject ?

Stop wasting my time……………..please

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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Moron

4666 posts in 2498 days


#17 posted 966 days ago

nip it in the bud liddle buddy

the world no longer has room for racism of any kind……….end of story

if history hasn’t embedded that into your mind

then history is doomed to repeat itself .

-- "Good artists borrow, great artists steal”…..Picasso

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moment

2103 posts in 1285 days


#18 posted 966 days ago

This is all I can add

. We all are a Family . We all have Value .Many traditions

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HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1518 days


#19 posted 966 days ago

Don’t forget this one:

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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bluekingfisher

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#20 posted 966 days ago

So now the west is righteous and gracious, educating the poor Africans Iraq’s Afghans et al. All those poor poor countries who know nothing about nothing. Ah bless!

We in the west have the greatest record of human oppression (perhaps the former USSR can lay claim to that title) – perhaps this is our way of extinguising the guilt from our acts of the past.

Let them live their lives their way, we are so busy pushing people around we often overlook our own failings.

One day we will push and the worm will push back, we may even get our backsides kicked!

-- No one plans to fail, they just, just fail to plan

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Bertha

12951 posts in 1297 days


#21 posted 966 days ago

I’d love to spread fuzzies here but my Capitalist Pig mentality wont’ let me. I’m definitely not proud of it; not embarrassed either; but I genuinely don’t care about much. Gay, Straight, Black, White, Catholic, Jewish, I honestly couldn’t give less of a rat’s ass. I could care less what my neighbors are up to unless it directly threatens me, either physically or in the wallet. There are very few causes I’m eager to “fund”. It takes a pretty awful foreign atrocity to really get my attention. I work hard, pay my taxes, and want to be left alone.

That being said, I have a soft spot for hunger. I’ve spent a lot of money feeding people, but I do it exclusively locally. In my experience, no matter how good your intentions, if you fund a remote cause, you have no control over how it’s managed.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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DrDirt

2368 posts in 2347 days


#22 posted 966 days ago

I was always taugt that you could pick out what is truly a RIGHT, by taking any claim and answering the question “At whose expense”

e.g.
someone says we have a right to an education through grade 12 – - – AT whose expense?
That is not against education but getting an education is a priveledge and something we have decided as a society is extremely important to our survival as a society/family and culture. BUT it is not a RIGHT.

Freedom of Speech IS a right. My ability to excercise free speech is not at the expense of society or others.

My right to keep and bear arms… same thing, it doesn’t require society to buy me a gun for me to have that right and I can CHOOSE whether or not to excercise it.

Freedom to worship as and TO whom I choose…same thing it is my RIGHT.

Now if we say Free healthcare is a right…. that is incorrect – because your “Right” must be funded by others to have such a system.
Again not arguing that single payer is good or bad but it is NOT a Right.

Nor is there a RIGHT to be free of hunger…that is something we make laws about and provide for civil society.

We always go to persecution but I think people have a RIGHT to feel however they want about other groups…there are CONSEQUENCES to that, but you have a right to be a racist bigot. That is why the klan ralleys are permitted, just like the wackos from the Westboro baptist church has a RIGHT to show up at soldiers funerals. Nobody SANE would do that crap but they are within their rights.

If you have a house with a basement rental unit, and two muslim college students (middle eastern decent but German passports) want to rent it out, cash up front. are you a Bigot if you say NO? What are your RIGHTS to decide who lives in your basement?
Sure the enforcment arm of the government only kicks in for commercial properties….but if you decide you don’t want to have a Black, Gay Muslim, Vegan student living in your house with you – - – because you feel uncomfortable, are you supposed to just SUCK IT UP and be a good global citizen? Or is it OK that you behave as a bigot and be selective?

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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CharlieM1958

15670 posts in 2823 days


#23 posted 966 days ago

DrDirt: You had me thinking you had the perfect criterion to decide what is a right and not a right. Then I got to the last paragraph and said “uh-oh”. That one seems to be a bit of a gray area for me.

I can go along with the Klan march being a right, because it only involves an expression of opinion. But if I advertise my basement for rent, then refuse to rent it to a Muslim student, would I not be exercising my “right” at someone else’s expense?

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#24 posted 966 days ago

I agree entirely that there should be a much higher priority for us working on our own failings than pushing our preferences on other countries. I’m proud of my country, but it isn’t perfectly wonderful in every possible way. I am most proud when we keep trying to get better.

If the extent of “pushing preferences” is little more than diplomatic posturing, which it seems to be in this particular case at least so far, then I’m OK with that I think. Talk is cheap, and it’s OK if the response is “go stuff it”. Even then it might have some value in some situations. At least it can be a reminder to ourselves that we want to not be that way.

I try to take a live-and-let-live approach, significantly motivated by the self interest that I want to be left alone to do what I want. I see I’m not the only one. But when I see party A egregiously abusing party B, I get pretty motivated to impose my view of what ain’t right on party A. For me, the idea of human rights helps to differentiate between the “life ain’t fair” kinda situations that are best left to the parties involved to resolve, and the “hell no, that ain’t right” kinda situations where it is time for me to choose what sort of world I want to live in.

But my agenda is not, as Cr1 fears, an effort to steal his property. It is pretty common for politicians to make stupid and divisive statements in a cynical, self-serving effort to get elected. To the extent that we allow them to get away with this behavior, we deserve what we get. This is my pathetic little attempt to encourage ya’ll to help make your favorite candidate a better candidate by calling them out whenever they cross the line separating meaningful debate from male bovine generated fecal material (MBGFM). Advice from allies is often more effective than push-back from adversaries. At a minimum, can we at least keep them from inventing divisions and playing us against each other so that they can, in the confusion, have things their way? Not likely that outcome is going to be best for us.

-- Greg D.

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#25 posted 966 days ago

+1 on what DrDirt said.

Somewhere we need to draw the line between my right to be the way I want to be and your right to find me repugnant. It seems to me that it should probably be somewhere in the area described by DrDirt’s last paragraph. And that looks to be well within sight of a compromise acceptable to most everyone (even though we haven’t worked out all the details), no? Not at all the war with people of faith that my esteemed governor claimed it to be.

-- Greg D.

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CharlieM1958

15670 posts in 2823 days


#26 posted 966 days ago

cr!: The problem is that in our form of government, Joe himself has helped elect the members of Harry’s committee to steal his property.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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jmos

681 posts in 974 days


#27 posted 966 days ago

cr1 – that’s easy, it’s a Social Contract, and the basis for most modern governments. I’m certainly not happy with a whole lot of things about our current government, but the idea that any taxation is thievery is more than a bit far fetched. We all benefit from living in a society, and we all have to contribute to that society. That contribution should be made in a number of ways, including paying taxes. The society determines what is in ‘the best interest’ and raise funds to pay for that ‘fairly.’

Within that simple framework there is plenty to argue about, and lots of room for disagreement about what is in the best interest and what is fair. But sealing, really?

-- John

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#28 posted 966 days ago

IDK about Harry, but what Greg wants in this specific case doesn’t cost any money. He is just looking for a little air time to ask people to reject the devisiveness that is often spewed by political candidates. The fact that money has already been stolen from Joe to pay Hillary Clinton’s salary and travel expenses so that she can fly to Africa and tell government officials there that the US might reconsider the terms of the money the US gives them if they continue to do things the US considers bad is kinda tangential to the current point and happened without any facilitation or advocacy from Greg, AFAIK.

But yes, indeed, I have other agendas that fit perfectly the Harry/Joe scenario. Still, the Harry/Joe scenario in the general case is far more interesting and important. Theft by Government. Taxes aren’t the only mechanism – eminent domian comes to mind. You probably know more than I. But it might be best to stick with taxes first, and only later move on to other mechanisms. How about a new thread?

That would be a fantastic topic for a presidential debate.

-- Greg D.

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Bertha

12951 posts in 1297 days


#29 posted 966 days ago

Cr1, face it, Muslims are moving into your basement whether you like it or not, lol.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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moment

2103 posts in 1285 days


#30 posted 966 days ago

The pictures of U.S. citizens were posted as a thought about ” traditional family values ” . These tend to vary depending on whom one is speaking to ,or about . ” Rights” are well defined by the laws that we,the people, institute. We are free to be as preferential as we wish within the boundaries of those laws. I just posted the picture of the dali because he’s cute . : )

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Bertha

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#31 posted 965 days ago

We are free to be as preferential as we wish within the boundaries of those laws.
Preach it, brother. And you’re right, the Dali looked really content in that picture, almost festive;)

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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DrDirt

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#32 posted 965 days ago

They might as well have added “SO THERE” to the end.

Actually they did make the statement ”Elections have consequences” Pelosi -
or Obama scolding McCain durin the healthcare ‘Summit’ about the promise of transparency to the process being told “the election is over John”

Now all we have is the tyranny of the majority. One party gets control and everyone else is royally screwed.
I hear that – - – that is exactly why the founding fathers did not Set up a democracy, because it always becomes Mob rule…Segregation and voting rights were all a result of bipartisan decisions of what the constitutional republic really meant to citizens. If it were just up to the “Majority” in each southern state you would still see flagrant discrimination – whites only water fountains and rosa parks would have been lynched

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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Viktor

447 posts in 2023 days


#33 posted 965 days ago

“I didn’t help elect a single person who rammed death care down the throats of the nation. And they did it in secret and in total absence of even a tiny effort at by partisanship. It was tyranny. The statement from the left was : “I have ideas about how you should live your life and I’m going to use the police power of the state to force you and take your property to pay to make you do it too.”

That simply means they are better than you at pushing ideas. You had an equal chance and you lost. Whose fault is this? If the left is so smart to mount such an overwhelming global liberal conspiracy, coerce world governments, media, scientists, Hollywood, elves, and fairies, than they simply deserve to be your powerful overlords.
But I do agree with you that taxes are theft and we should push anarchy as a societal model down everyone’s throat. If that doesn’t work we’ll just move to Somalia.

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Viktor

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#34 posted 965 days ago

Did they put gun to your head at the voting booth? Did they stop you from speaking or convincing people around you? Really? Take some responsibility, will you?

PS. No, I was actually advocating anarchy today.

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DrDirt

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#35 posted 965 days ago

You will notice that their majority was short lived.

Yeah so was Pearl Harbor, but there sure is a lot of damage done – and took a while to get the right outcome.

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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patcollins

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#36 posted 965 days ago

How is it a war on traditional American values, wouldnt it be a war on traditional African values?

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HorizontalMike

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#37 posted 965 days ago

Fellow Americans, particularly people of faith, I am curious. What are your values?

Well mine are NOT supportive of the Crusades, Inquisition, KKK, etc. mentality that many of the ”people of faith” in this country seem to drool over in their desire to control the actions of others.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Neville

29 posts in 1078 days


#38 posted 965 days ago

Moment – just wanted to say thanks for the effort in posting all the pics…it truly demonstrates how diverse we are, and whether we like the way that other people do things is or not is often a matter of opinion only. The pictures say a thousand words.

-- Neville, Calgary AB

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moment

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#39 posted 965 days ago

Neville - Thanks , and i agree .

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#40 posted 965 days ago

Mike – I know a lot of “people of faith” that also aren’t supportive of the items in your list. Most of my siblings, inlaws, aunts, uncles and cousins for starters. So it is very important to me to be accurate when referencing the entire group or a subset thereof. I thought it was quite safe to expect that your values were not ones Rick Perry was defending.

Patcollins – the “war” characterization was from someone I suspect has no concern whatsoever about African values. I also suspect his only concern about American values is how to use these code words to win votes.

-- Greg D.

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HorizontalMike

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#41 posted 965 days ago

GREG: I thought it was quite safe to expect that your values were not ones Rick Perry was defending.

You have to forgive me, here in Texas I have had to endure living under Governor Rick Perry cronyism for the past 21 years PLUS under Governor George “W” Bushwacked-in-the-Head for another 5 years before THAT. I sure missed Ann Richards departure…

Don’t EVEN get me started on “W”s 8 years in the WH…

And frankly IMO, Pat is CORRECT in that you mis-titled your thread’s purpose to match that of Perry’s false accusation. Sounds too much like a FauxNews Headliner. Just sayin’...

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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patcollins

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#42 posted 965 days ago

I never understood what the organized religions had against gays. I mean of course to them its a lifestyle of sin, but they don’t treat other sinners like that. What about the guy that swears alot, what about the promiscous people, etc. How is this sin worse than others? Are they afraid it will spread and make them gay? I just don’t get it.

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CharlieM1958

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#43 posted 965 days ago

patcollins: Yes, it’s contagious. Didn’t you know? :-)

Of course, I was raised as a Catholic. They say it’s okay to be gay, as long as you don’t have gay sex. Go figure.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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IrreverentJack

724 posts in 1447 days


#44 posted 965 days ago

be accurate when referencing the entire group or a subset thereof

GregD, This new “diplomatic effort” in Africa is in answer to a group of American “people of faith” promoting/financing/lobbying for a “kill the gays bill” in Uganda (and possibly other countries). The law made being gay punishable by death. The news media didn’t seem to cover this much. That might be the reason I didn’t see many other “people of faith” condemning it. I don’t group all religious people together, but it seems “people of faith” do provide a lot of cover for each other. If American “people of faith” don’t share the same values as the American group that is trying to “save families” in Africa by exterminating gays, it should be much easier to tell. -Jack

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#45 posted 965 days ago

Yes, shifting focus closer to home I never understood the assertion that gay marriage was somehow a threat to “traditional” families. Been married for nearly 30 years and raised 3 kids and never felt the least bit threatened. While the Catholic Church requires the possibility of procreation a prerequisite to being married in the church, or so I thought, civil marriages don’t have that requirement. If two otherwise unrelated adults want to declare each other next-of-kin, seems like a good thing to me. Frankly, the nature of their relationship is of no concern to anyone but them as far as I can see. A Libertarian acquaintance pointed out that this logic also applied to groups of otherwise unrelated adults, so maybe there shouldn’t be a problem with polygamy either. Maybe the GLBT should form a coalition with the old-school Mormons.

Mike, I’ll stand by my choice of title because my intent was to focus on Perry’s false accusation. I don’t know much of anything of African values, traditional or otherwise. I have one niece and her husband is from Benin but I don’t see them much and that time is usually filled with talk of real family values like how the kids are doing. Makes me a little touchy towards snotty insinuations about Muslims because now yer talking about my family.

BTW, Rick is my governor too. At least Tom Delay is gone; I was really embarrassed that my neighbors would re-elect him every two years. But I think Rick has eclipsed Tom. Then there is the Texas SBOE. Boy do I hear about that from my sister in Michigan who is in education. How can we get you elected to that?

-- Greg D.

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GregD

607 posts in 1740 days


#46 posted 965 days ago

Hey Jack,

I’m not trying to ignore you. I just don’t know how to respond. You are not the only source I’ve seen suggesting that non-Africans influenced the current anti-gay phenomena in Africa:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/01/world/africa/nigeria-anti-gay-bill/index.html?hpt=op_bn5

The anti-gay phenomena is, IMHO, reprehensible, regardless of where it came from.

Ridiculing gays – or guys that seemed gay – was socially tolerated when I was in high school. An anti-sodomy law was on the books in Texas as recently as ten or twenty years ago. Pretty much everybody, I think, has the potential for nasty behavior, especially if we are not fully aware of all of the consequences of what we are doing. When we help each other realize exactly what is going on, most of us choose – eventually – to stop the nastiness.

-- Greg D.

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Bertha

12951 posts in 1297 days


#47 posted 965 days ago

Ridiculing gays – or guys that seemed gay – was socially tolerated
Still is in WV, despite my nonparticipation. If I were gay, and I very well may be, I’d use it as an opportunity to fortify my self esteem. I just can’t imagine caring; I really can’t. If one touches me, will I start finding Tom Selleck attractive? lol. I’ve got bigger problems than catching gay.

Now that I think about it, that is a handsome man;)

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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CharlieM1958

15670 posts in 2823 days


#48 posted 965 days ago

Al, Al, Al…... :-)

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

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HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1518 days


#49 posted 965 days ago

Come on Al, you KNOW they make an “Anti-Gay Vaccine” for ALL people of faith don’t you?... And I hear West Virginians get a double dose…

(Sarcasm intended to point out the existing bias of folks) ;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

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Bertha

12951 posts in 1297 days


#50 posted 965 days ago

LOL, Mike. I never followed up on my booster. Must explain my Magnum thing, lol.
That’s the downside of being a scientist; the social stuff all seems a bit absurd.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

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