All Replies on Gluing endgrain <--> endgrain

I must ask – if you want checkerboard pattern – why not do it end grain and have all long-grain-to-long-grain glue joints?

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

Well 2 reasons…

1. I wanted to try for a slightly different look of seeing the long-grain on top.
2. For special-use boards, it’d be nice to be able to run it through the planer after the final glue-up to make the project a lot easier.

-- Andrew - Albany. NY

This is the one I am trying to replicate, just love the look of the long-grain. (I am correct in thinking this is long grain, right?)

-- Andrew - Albany. NY

You are correct in thinking this is long grain. Long grain does glue the best by far. Since you are going to the bother to make it this way you might try to do a little more to make it last. Have you thought about using long dowels to hold it together. You could also us longer threaded rods. The nuts and washers would hide in the end block. If you used a piece of wood placed across the ends this would hold the blocks. the long grain on the block sides would glue as usual. The wood across the end of the blocks would be made into a mortise and tenon joint that would glue to the end caps. More work but you asked for more work when you decided to use the edge grain or long grain on the top surface….right? I like it. Show us a step by step photo session when you get it finished. Thanks

Many years ago I read an article about gluing end grain. He recommended putting on a base coat of glue, letting it dry and than gluing the wood pieces together. The first coat of glue seals the end grain so you don’t have a glue starved joint. I’ve never tried it but it seems to make sense.

-- Harry, Indiana

A follow up on Harry’s point – -

I have done some end grain gluing. I always apply a generous amount of glue to both surfaces and let it set for a few minutes before joining. In theory, this gives the glue a chance to soak into the end grain.

If the joint is going to be subjected to any stress, I use dowels to strengthen the joint.

If it is a low stress joint, I usually use biscuits. I’m not a biscuit fan but with end grain gluing I think they serve a good purpose. I’ve had very good luck with my approach.

Here is an example of end grain gluing that I did on a communion rail. As an FYI, there are 4 dowels buried into this joint and each dowel is about 4” long. This turned out to be a very good, clean joint that should stand the test of time.

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.

Rich,
That joint looks bullet-proof. With 4” dowels it must be!

-- Patrick, Helicopters don't fly. They beat the air into submission.

I have made a number of long-grain chess boards and tables using the method described in the first minute of this video, and I’ve never had any problems with the joints holding up.

http://youtu.be/1ScfqeM3aMk

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Well doing dowels or screws would probably defeat the purpose of it being easier….but i am sure it would make it much stronger. How would I get a hole drilled that long and narrow? I don’t own a drill press…

Charlie – can you provide some more details on how you did the glue-up? How much did you put on? Did you glue both ends or just 1?

Letting a thin layer of glue dry seems to be a decent idea, but how much? Just a VERY light coat? Any more than that and I’d think you would see some separation of the pieces on the glue-up. I have heard of this method, also diluting the glue with water for the preliminary coat. I would just worry that the glue would be too thick and lead to visible glue-lines.

-- Andrew - Albany. NY

Whenever you aren’t sure, you can do a test piece from scrap. Put glue on both surfaces so they stay good and wet for a minute or three. Clamp them up. After 24 hours see how strong the joint is. How much stress do you expect on a cutting board?

BTW, the cutting board in the pic looks nice, but won’t the cross-grain joints between the end pieces and the checkerboard field break apart in time due to different expansion & contraction? Particularly in a cutting board that will go through repeated wet/dry cycles?

-- Greg D. -- the price of freedom is tolerance

Hmm, didn’t think about the opposite grain pattern. These boards will be sealed with salad bowl finish, that should keep the expanding and contracting to a minumum, right? It seals the surface pretty well.

-- Andrew - Albany. NY

Andrew, I thinly coat both faces, using just enough to still get some squeeze-out when clamping.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

When I did my parquet top dresser valet (grain of each block perpendicular to it’s neighbor), I glued all the pieces to a thin plywood underlayment as well as to each other. Hid the ply with edge banding and have had no no problems with joints separating. Just a thought and might not work for a cutting board exposed to water.

-- " I'll try to be nicer, if you'll try to be smarter" gfadvm

I will preface this by saying that I have never done this, so can’t say it will work, but it does kind of make sense.

If you look at that board pattern as “columns” and “rows” it is pretty obvious that all the rows will consist of long grain glue joints, and the column glue joints will be the end grain joints that are a concern.

If I were making this, I would just glue up the rows first with all the good, strong long grain joints, then when they are dry I would use a dowel jig and just put dowel pins at whatever reasonable spacing seemed right at the time. Maybe three per row on something that small.

My thinking is that the long grain glue ups would act just as one board, so it would be just like gluing up boards instead of blocks. This should (and I’m guessing here) mean that it isn’t necessary to have a dowel for each individual block to block end joint.

Just an idea. Probably worth less than you paid for it. :)

How do I drill a dowel that’s 10” long? I assume I need a drill press for something like that?

-- Andrew - Albany. NY

My idea isn’t for one long dowel, it is to use the same short dowel pins you would use for any panel glue up. Just put dowels between each row. Might take a few minutes, but with a good dowel jig wouldn’t be too hard. I have a couple, the one I would use for this is this one:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18059&filter=dowel%20jig

And some 1 inch long dowels. Now, since there is no reference for size in that photo, I could be mis-judging the size, but I was thinking that was about 1 inch thick. If it is much thicker or thinner than that, then the dowels might not work or have to use a different size at least.

You would also need to offset the dowel holes so they don’t bump into each other. Might even alternate top to bottom depending upon the thickness.

Like I said, this is just an idea that came to mind. I can’t say how strong it would be, but I have done end-grain gluing with dowels and it does make it plenty strong (just as Rich said above). It would depend upon the long grain part of the glue up being strong and straight.

You can drill them as individual blocks them glue them and slide the dowel in all at the same time. One long dowel. This is what I was trying to suggest above in my other post. You could tongue and groove them. Just a thought.

Why not use splines? You have more than enough hidden sides to insert long spline to connect the pieces together. Obviously you have a table saw and this would be the easiest for you to accomplish… make a dado groove long grain prior to cutting out the blocks.. about 1/2” deep and then use a 1” wide spline. This will hold the end grain blocks together with the strength of a solid piece of wood and will be a lot easier to assemble and glue to the other pieces without slipping, gaps, or weak areas. The same technique can be use for the bread board end caps like it was a table top. Just a suggestion, since you don’t have a drill press.

-- ~ Eric P Jorgenson: Jorgenson Design

If you want to go the dowel route, fear not about not having a DP. You can buy some VERY long drill bits, and use them on your corded/cordless drill.

In that case … you’d probably just want to clamp (dry fit) all your pieces between a couple of blocks of scrap, perhaps use a jig that gives you a good solid 90 degree hole (perpendicular to the boards), and … go nuts ;-)

-- -- Neil

The dowels seem like a week long headache to me.

The easier answer is a different adhesive. It’s not that end grain can’t be glued to end grain, it’s just that the typical woodworking glues won’t do the job very well—certainly not well enough for this particular application.

Epoxy works. It’s a different critter, but one that’s good to have on your shelf of adhesive options.

I have heard that polyurethane waterblown glues do well on endgrain, but have not experimented with them in that context. I have used gallons of the stuff, and it certainly has its place.

Just my $.02.

Kindly,

Lee

-- "...in his brain, which is as dry as the remainder biscuit after a voyage, he hath strange places cramm'd with observation, the which he vents in mangled forms." --Shakespeare, "As You Like It"

What ever glue you use, be sure it is FDA approved for food use. If you find an epoxy that is food safe use it otherwise use what you can and make ways to hold the joints tight without splitting. I like the spline idea from above and the dowel will work just as good.

-- Drew -- "I cut it twice and it's still too short!"- Rock-n H Woodshop - Moore, OK

I did this same thing. I used biscuits and long wood screws (make sure to pre-drill the holes). Compared to endgrain cutting boards, it took an inordinate amount of time. Frankly, I don’t think the extra time was worth the visual effect.

Before doing this board, I took a piece of 4/4/ scrap hard maple and joined it together end grain to end grain with a similar piece of purpleheart. It was about 3” wide. I re-enforced the joint with a single #2 biscuit. I let it try, clamped it into my vise, and went to town on it with a hammer. The joint finally broke – entirely on the joint line with no wood breakage. However, I felt comfortable enough in the strength of the joint (it did, after all, take me some big swings with the hammer) to use it in a cutting board. For extra measure, I used hidden screws too.

Moral of the story, you can get this to work. It took me a very long time though, and the end product probably isn’t as strong as a regular end grain board.

Andrew, you are making a cutting board; don’t worry about it. Just make it the way you want it to look and see what happens. You will learn something.

-- Rocking Chair Guy

True, especially since I will be able to run it through the planer, it should be very fast to make it. I’ll give it a go.

I also read that sealing the end grain with watered-down glue, letting it dry, then re-gluing, though an extra step, adds a lot of strength to the joint. I’ll try a few methods and see what I come up with.

-- Andrew - Albany. NY