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View DrDirt's profile

Ben Stein on Christmas and Society

by DrDirt
posted 11-28-2011 05:22 PM


17 replies so far

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

12951 posts in 1360 days


#1 posted 11-28-2011 05:31 PM

Awesome!

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

View Charles Maxwell's profile

Charles Maxwell

963 posts in 2474 days


#2 posted 11-28-2011 06:05 PM

Fantastic post! Ben Stein is/has always been spot on! Sadly, you may get the standard negative reply to wit: ”... I thought this was a woodworker’s venue yadda yadda yadda…” I say ignore those comments and continue as before. The fact is, we need to take every opportunity to push facts into the public arena and the forum does not matter. The global left has infiltrated every forum that promotes a message. If we want to keep our republic we must commit to do the same regardless of the push back! Keep chargin! CDR Maxwell, USN (ret)

-- Max the "night janitor" at www.hardwoodclocks.com

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

12951 posts in 1360 days


#3 posted 11-28-2011 06:12 PM

^Tell em Stein uses a SawStop. That should give him adequate clout.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

View KnickKnack's profile

KnickKnack

990 posts in 2233 days


#4 posted 11-28-2011 06:14 PM

Interesting.

Snopes describe themselves as “the definitive Internet reference source for urban legends, folklore, myths, rumors, and misinformation”.

According to Snopes, Dr Spock’s son did not commit suicide – link – other sources seem to confirm this.

According to Snopes, the last half of this wasn’t written by Stein at all – link – the consensus seems to be that it was said by Anne Graham, Billy Graham’s daughter, about 10 years ago.

I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and we said OK
From what I’ve read, that’s somewhat misleading – the landmark court case, Murray v. Curlett, declared school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools in the United States to be unconstitutional.

There are some interesting, possibly even thought-provoking, ideas in there – it’s a shame that it’s significantly devalued by not being written by whom it purports to be written by, and that it contains things that are simply not true.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence." --- "Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope."

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

2471 posts in 2409 days


#5 posted 11-28-2011 06:28 PM

KnickKnack – - -Sometimes you need to look at the forest rather than cataloging individual trees….

Goodness Ben shortend School Sponsored Bible reading and referred to it as prayer in school…. is not misleading…certainly not in a meaningful way –
And good lord he missed that it was Dr Spocks Grandson not son that jumped off a building.

Must mean the whole point about religeous offense from displays during the holidays is incorrect?

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

View ShaneA's profile

ShaneA

5313 posts in 1265 days


#6 posted 11-28-2011 06:43 PM

Al, you are just spreading rumors now. Everyone knows he is a PM guy!

Ben is a bright man, no doubt about it. However, it is not like religion (of all types) is without their own issues and histories of war, abuse, and terror. I am sure he means well, and I know what he is saying, but the answer is deeper and more complex. For example, the people who flew planes into the WTC probably thought they were doing god’s work. I dont mean to offend, but religion can/has been twisted thru history, with often tragic results. Evil people will seek out whatever excuses or justifications they can to help them accomplish their goals.

I typically would not participate in religious type discussions. I think everyone should be free to worship as they may please. If everyone followed and practiced the ideals that are put forth in the bible or other relgious books, the world would probably be a better place. However, those messages, in the wrong hands can be disasterous. I dont mean to touch off a religious debate, because I think Ben makes some good points. I would just say there are so many complex issues at work today in the world today, that there will be no simple or easy solutions. Which is sad.

View KnickKnack's profile

KnickKnack

990 posts in 2233 days


#7 posted 11-28-2011 06:47 PM

Must mean the whole point about religeous offense from displays during the holidays is incorrect?
I didn’t think it was about that, I thought it was a much deeper thing about what may have “gone wrong” with society.

And good lord he missed that it was Dr Spocks Grandson not son that jumped off a building.
The whole paragraph was questioning Dr Spock’s ‘teachings” based on the fact that his son committed suicide. Given that his son did not commit suicide the whole paragraph becomes invalid. Has a nice ring to it. Fits in nicely with the general tenet of the piece. Just using “facts” that aren’t true. I deem that important.

Goodness Ben shortend School Sponsored Bible reading and referred to it as prayer in school…. is not misleading…certainly not in a meaningful way –
Firstly, Ben did not say this, he copied it from someone else.
Secondly, I wasn’t picking up on that, but on “And we said OK”. I’ve seen other threads, seen other discussions etc, and Americans are, as far as I can tell (I’m not an American) really strong on “The Constitution” – that’s the backstop. Whenever guns are discussed – “The Constitution” comes up. Whenever free speech is discussed “The Constitution” comes up. Just to say “And we said OK” makes it seem like people just let it slide when, in fact, it was deemed that “The Constitution” said it was not allowed. The Founding Fathers didn’t want it.

As I said, there are some interesting points in there, but I personally think it would have been more powerful without the errors, inaccuracies and fact changes to make the case.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence." --- "Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope."

View Viktor's profile

Viktor

448 posts in 2085 days


#8 posted 11-28-2011 07:09 PM

The world has been steady going to hell for the last 13 billion years (oops, I am questioning the Bible), and yet I would not trade living today for any time in our God-fearing past (and I suspect neither would you).

KnickKnack, it is hopeless. In the United States facts are the subjects of faith or public debate at best. Who cares about your facts. Dr. Spock’s grandson was schizophrenic, who cares, must have been caused by his grandpa not excepting the Lord (are you getting this nicely inconspicuous message? … eyeroll).

View Viktor's profile

Viktor

448 posts in 2085 days


#9 posted 11-28-2011 07:20 PM

“Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.”
Now, this fallacy is just plane ridiculous. The obscene etc. AND the discussion of God pass freely through cyberspace, while both are suppressed in the PUBLIC school (as it should be).

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

2471 posts in 2409 days


#10 posted 11-28-2011 08:19 PM

The challenge is that the “freedom of Religion”cited for the first amendment – “the establishment clause” deemed that there should not be an official Government Religion.

This has been picked at and twisted by groups to be Freedom FROM religion.

Pushes:
The ban on school led prayer/bible reading in the above case I was fine with – it was stated in the article as being a “Turning point” where the author felt a part of morality had gotten derailed, as the cases meaning gets stretched and twisted.

now it is ordered to Remove the 10 commandments from government buildings

No Christmas trees on public property

the World War 1 memorial in the Desert in california – erected a cross in 1936 – but the ACLU fought to have it removed. Ultimately in 2006 the Supreme Court ruled that the presence of the cross didn’t endorse a religion so the lefties went out and stole and presumably destroyed the cross.

No Christmas parties in school – only “Winter Holiday”

Kids writing christmas cards from the school to soldiers fighting in the middle east – not allowed to write Merry Christmas – because it is offensive.

We roll down this PC pathway and wonder why things seem so much like american Idol

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

View Brad_Nailor's profile

Brad_Nailor

2531 posts in 2624 days


#11 posted 11-28-2011 08:40 PM

Ya and I guess that forcing YOUR religious beliefs down peoples throats will make everything all better..

“For this newly formed nation to succeed, we must build a wall between church and state” Thomas Jefferson

-- http://www.facebook.com/pages/DSO-Designs/297237806954248

View Viktor's profile

Viktor

448 posts in 2085 days


#12 posted 11-28-2011 08:46 PM

“No Christmas trees on public property”

That’s right. Every year they ban that huge Christmas Tree near the Capitol. LOL.

View KnickKnack's profile

KnickKnack

990 posts in 2233 days


#13 posted 11-28-2011 08:49 PM

Ah – interesting. I love these threads that make you go off, research, and learn stuff.

I’d agree with the 10 commandments rulings.

I’m iffy on the “Christmas trees on public property”. What of the “National Christmas tree”?
I think that in this day and age “Christmas” has lost most of its religious significance, and I’d judge the tree mainly decorative and cheery.

Kids writing christmas cards from the school to soldiers fighting in the middle east – aren’t there “Freedom of speech” implications in that? Isn’t the next step to stop “Merry Christmas” phone calls? If my kid had been told he couldn’t write “Merry Christmas” on a card to a soldier I’d be taking issue.

-- "Do not speak – unless it improves on silence." --- "Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope."

View Viktor's profile

Viktor

448 posts in 2085 days


#14 posted 11-28-2011 09:06 PM

“Kids writing Christmas cards from the school to soldiers fighting in the middle east – aren’t there “Freedom of speech” implications in that? Isn’t the next step to stop “Merry Christmas” phone calls? If my kid had been told he couldn’t write “Merry Christmas” on a card to a soldier I’d be taking issue.”

Here you go again with your facts, KnockKnack. Yes, the court ruled on that particular case and things where straitened up. But that’s because you live in a reality-based community, where your views are shaped by judicious analysis of discernible reality. In a faith-based community the lefties banned Christmas.

View Eric_S's profile

Eric_S

1521 posts in 1862 days


#15 posted 11-28-2011 09:27 PM

When I see a chain email with “confirmed on snopes” I immediately disregard it. The text DrDirt posted isn’t all factual. Only a small portion of it was actually said by Ben Stein, the rest was from other anonymous sources spliced throughout.

Here is the real text that Ben Stein said, the rest mentioned above was not from him… http://www.benstein.com/121805xmas.html

-- - Eric Indianapolis, IN

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

2471 posts in 2409 days


#16 posted 11-28-2011 10:14 PM

Christmas trees banned from public buildings
Associated Press

NEW PORT RICHEY, Fla. — Pasco County officials have banned Christmas trees from public buildings after their county attorney decided they were religious symbols.

Dozens of people have complained to the county north of Tampa, and a constitutional law group this week urged it to reverse its decision.

“This whole thing is silly. It floors me,” said Marijane Graham, 67, of Dade City. “I’m sure there are atheists celebrating Christmas somewhere just for the spirit of giving. I’ve never read about a Christmas tree in the Bible, or Santa for that matter.”

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

2471 posts in 2409 days


#17 posted 11-28-2011 10:27 PM

From Viktor

Here you go again with your facts, KnockKnack. Yes, the court ruled on that particular case and things where straitened up.

Isn’t it absurd that the kids parents had to get the Alliance Defense Fund to SUE the Plano School District to insist they had a right to send soldiers a CHRISTMAS card?

You Cannot argue the ACLU and the School District did not in FACT make this the rule??? Can you (crickets chirping) ?

Beyond the issue of Christmas cards the same school banned:
—Traditional Christmas colors—such as green and red—were banned from this year’s holiday party. The party, according to Shackelford, is called a “winter party.”

“They asked [parents] to bring white napkins, white paper plates and white icing,” he said. “… Then they said, ‘All other items shouldn’t be brought because it would violate the school policy against distribution of things without school approval.”

But I suppose that as long as SOMEBODY ELSE fights this crap out…. nobody else should bother to say “What the hell!!???

-- "If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astonish ourselves." Edison

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