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All Replies on WHO'S BEEN THROUGH THE GRIZZLY MACHINERY PHASE.

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View twiceisnice's profile

WHO'S BEEN THROUGH THE GRIZZLY MACHINERY PHASE.

by twiceisnice
posted 1059 days ago


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84 replies

84 replies so far

View vernonator's profile

vernonator

68 posts in 1278 days


#1 posted 1059 days ago

Dude…stop yelling – turn off your caps, and add a few paragraphs/breaks your post is unreadable.

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2275 days


#2 posted 1059 days ago

1. you have a lot of good content in your post, but it’s very hard to read – turn off the caplock and use paragraphs. otherwise the people that might benefit from this post might not be able to read it through

2. for some folks ‘get the best machine you can get’ equals getting a grizzly 3hp TS or other grizzly machine – this is their ‘best’ in their budget. when the budget is ~1500 you cannot buy a $4000 powermatic.

3. I think you made some very valid points there that show why the grizzly machines are cheaper than their equivalent (on spec) powermatics/deltas/scmi/hammer/minimax/and the list goes on. for hobby work I think it would work well, for a professional shop that relies on those machines to run day and night maybe not so much so. that said – todays powermatics are made offshore – not much different than grizzly although they MAY have better quality control in place. are you referring to new powermatics? or the old made-in-the-usa machines? very different products bearing the same name.

good info nonetheless.

for what it’s worth – I have a grizzly machine, and it does use softer hardware, but for my once in a while use its not an issue and the price made it possible for me to have it which would otherwise have not been the case.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View twiceisnice's profile

twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#3 posted 1059 days ago

D

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

3404 posts in 2587 days


#4 posted 1059 days ago

For a while I thought you were gonna be saying that you were goin’ back to Craftsman tools.
I’ll stick with my Grizz stuff.FWIW.
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

View Cosmicsniper's profile

Cosmicsniper

2199 posts in 1785 days


#5 posted 1059 days ago

I hope somebody else can answer this, because I’m OUT!

-- jay, www.allaboutastro.com

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Manitario

2300 posts in 1510 days


#6 posted 1059 days ago

YO BUDDY, I CAN’T HEAR YOUR MESSAGE OVER THE SOUND OF YOUR COMPUTER SHOUTING AT ME!!!

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Carl Fisher's profile

Carl Fisher

53 posts in 1102 days


#7 posted 1059 days ago

Sorry, wrong post…

-- Carl Fisher, Fort Mill, South Carolina --

View rustfever's profile

rustfever

621 posts in 1937 days


#8 posted 1059 days ago

Someone else has seen the same problems I saw. I stopped buying/using Griz product before I had many dollars invested. Only 3 pieces of equipment and one warrentee request, and I was no longer in their camp [bandsaw, mortiser, shaper].

Exclusively use the good stuff now.

-- Rustfever, Central California

View twiceisnice's profile

twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#9 posted 1059 days ago

I have a budget. Theres the now budget and theres save your money to get a good one.

View Howie's profile

Howie

2656 posts in 1550 days


#10 posted 1059 days ago

I don’t bother reading all caps. Waste of my time trying to figure out what’s being said.

-- Life is good.

View wasmithee's profile

wasmithee

55 posts in 1320 days


#11 posted 1059 days ago

Nice feedback. I’ve enjoyed my Grizzly 12” jointer, though I am a hobby user.

For everyone’s benefit I reformatted your screaming post into something a bit more legible:
<quote>
(twiceisnice)
New to woodworking , as i walked into the grizzly store , i was like wow. Look at all this stuff. They have everything. The prices are so much cheaper than other manufactures. i can purchase 2 or 3 machines for the price of a powermatic ,delta sawstop, scmi, safetyspeedcut,and others.

So I got the g1023 table saw to start. Soft cast iron. The rough cut wood i was sliding through was eating away the cast iron. A lot of backlash in hand wheel controls. Soft hardware.

Next was the g1026 shaper. Soft cast iron, soft hardware , spindle moved when locking, backlash in handwheel adj.

Had a shop shopfox 3 hp shaper too. Same problems just looked better.

Next go609x jointer soft cast iron, mojor backlash in handwheels, fence had slight twist, infeed/outfeed tables were slightly off . Went to adjust the bushings after unlocking set screws the bushings totally disintegrated. So i loaded it up and took it to grizzly. It took them a month to replace bushings and realign . As i was looking at the floor model i noticed the bushings had no place where you could put a wrench on to adjust the infeed and outfeed tables . I told the salesmen of the problem. So if you order one , make sure you ask if it has the right bushings. I did like the spiral cutterhead 100%. Enough said on that.

G1071 spindle sander is ok . soft cast iron , smaller spindles wobble. O yea, wrenches. Stamped wrenches. Am i the only one who throws them out after one use or does everyone pound them back into place with a hammer?

G0441 3 hp dust collector. I do like the dust collector. 1 problem. As i completed my ductwork i was anxious to try it out. I turned it on and noticed a strange sound. My bag sucked into the cyclone tank. %#$@ i hooked the inlet to the outlet. I couldn’t have. So i looked in the griz book to see what is wrong. If you’re going to use a garbage bag for your sawdust in the holding bin you need a sleeve that fits in it. Instead of paying their price , i went to the local tin fab shop to make me one up cheaper . So if you order the dust collector don’t forget that.

G0544 20” spiral planer. I’m ok with this for right now, but soon to be replaced . Love the spiral cutterhead. Ran a lot of hardwood through this planer with minimal problems. I rate this planer very high. Con weak motors, soft hardware. That’s enough said on this.

I read a lot of posts like grizzly vs Powermatic ,Delta, Sawstop ,so on and so on. You cannot compare any of these machines to grizzly until you have physically used them. So to the newbie. Save your money and purchase the best machinery you can buy. Your resale value will remain high. Try avoiding mail order machinery. go to your local wood working machinery dealer like Hermance machinery, JG machinery, KH machine your service will be a lot better and knowledge of problems will be solved. They have service techs that will come to your house. That beats loading up your machinery and having it delivered waiting for a month or more to get it back. Well that’s my experience with grizzly machinery. I’m ready for the beating.
</quote>

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twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#12 posted 1059 days ago

Thank you WASMITHEE

View Howie's profile

Howie

2656 posts in 1550 days


#13 posted 1059 days ago

Somehow I’m having trouble with the fact so many machines were defective at the same time.
Just my $.02

-- Life is good.

View crank49's profile

crank49

3371 posts in 1598 days


#14 posted 1059 days ago

I’m sorry, but I’ve been an engineer in a foundry most of my career and “soft cast iron” does not exist. The better, more expensive grades might be considered “softer” than the really cheap stuff which is hard and brittle.

If you have lumber wearing out the surface of a cast iron table you need to look at your wood storage area. Must have dirt and or sand on your wood.

Now, as for control hardware, that can be soft, like A-36 steel instead of alloyed steel.

In the interest of full disclosure, I don’t own a Grizzly tool, but I have one of the cheapest cast iron table saws on the market, a Craftsman, and I’d never say it was soft. Crappy fit and finish, designed on the bleeding edge of too light and flimsy to be useful, but it ain’t soft. Probably comes from the same Asian factory as the Grizzly. I do know several woodworkers who have Grizzly saws that they just love.

Seems to me if you bought machines 7 times from Grizzly (thanks wasmithee for making the count possible) you would have noticed the problem before you filled up your shop. Makes me wonder what they did to piss you off. Just sayin.

-- Michael :-{| “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― A H

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

12951 posts in 1320 days


#15 posted 1059 days ago

I got about 1/3 of the way through it. You gambled when you bought 7 machines for the price of three and you lost. It’s not a unique story but I’m sorry for your experience. You should be able to unload them pretty easily. There are still plenty of people who really like Grizzly. I’m not one of them but that’s not really relevant.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

View twiceisnice's profile

twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#16 posted 1059 days ago

Grizzly did not piss me off. What i am saying is to the new woodworker who wants to establish a new shop is to fill it with good quality tools.
Grizzly is a cheap alternative. I’ve experienced the grizzly phase. Budget, I have a budget . Like i said before. Theres a now budget and a save your money to buy the better tool.

View danr's profile

danr

150 posts in 1812 days


#17 posted 1059 days ago

Here is my input on Grizzly,

I have owned an operated 2 entry level machines from Grizzly for about 20 years now. I was sort of a beginner back in those days and did not have as much dough to spend and for that matter, did not really know how serious I would become about woodworking. My Grizzly machines are what they are and have served me ok over these years.

Today, I still consider Grizzly when researching a new tool purchase but mostly the higher end models. It appears to me that Grizzly offers a lot better quality product that it did 20 years ago. I think we all realize that most all of these wood working machines from many manufactures come from the same area, if not same factories in Tiawan and have lots of similarities if they are not identical, excluding paint and logos.

Having said that, would I buy another Grizzly tool? Maybe/maybe not. I think that the non-professional, and certainly the beginner, would always be smart to consider Grizzly. The price/performance of thier machines is squarely in the sweet spot for these individuals.

View jerkylips's profile

jerkylips

233 posts in 1197 days


#18 posted 1059 days ago

maybe I’m reading too much into it, but something seems fishy about the original post. “new to woodworking” yet seems to have quite an understanding of what to look for, makes mention of how grizzly compares to powermatic, delta, etc. – if you’re a “newbie” as you described, what is this comparison based on? It seems like an awful lot of stuff to buy at once if you’re “just getting into” woodworking, let alone having problems with all of it. Sorry, I think there’s another motive here..

View PurpLev's profile

PurpLev

8476 posts in 2275 days


#19 posted 1059 days ago

jerkylips – I think he meant that as in “when I was new to woodworking” at least that’s how I read it – he is sharing his long term experience in his woodworking endevours FOR new folks getting started. he is well entitled to have an opinion on which many of the things he mentioned are true. not to say that other brands don’t have the same issues these days… I dont see any conspiracy theories here.

-- ㊍ When in doubt - There is no doubt - Go the safer route.

View Hartmann's profile

Hartmann

38 posts in 1516 days


#20 posted 1059 days ago

wow ok, I got it, this guy for sure work in a local wood working machinery dealer, just check out the olds post and you can fine a very good reason about what I’m thinking…. BTW say hello to all the people in HERMANCE MACHINERY, you are a great seller….. you earn your money this week, congra…..

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pariswoodworking

380 posts in 1112 days


#21 posted 1059 days ago

WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT US?

Grizzly tooks are ok, they’re not the best or the worst. They are good for the price. I plan on filling my shop with a few grizzly tools, but for the most part, I will fill it full of Craftsman, Dewalt, Sawstop, and maybe a few Delta tools.

-- Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein

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bobsmyuncle

110 posts in 1318 days


#22 posted 1059 days ago

Same experience here. Bought a jig saw, won a belt/disk sander, bought a used drill press. No more Griz for me; had problems with all of them.

What I can’t understand is they spend tons of money to buy full two-page spreads in the front of most every magazine I get. Yet their customer service stinks. It’s a lot cheaper to keep a customer than to get a new one.

>Autumn sez: problems I’ve had with Grizzly tools: pot metal parts = trash. I won’t even bother to mention poor machining, out-of-wack parts and poor customer service. I’ve had several Grizzly tools, and I would never buy another.

“There is hardly anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse
and sell a little cheaper, and those people who consider price only, are this man’s lawful prey. It is unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money – that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot; it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better”

John Ruskin (1819 – 1900)

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bigkev

197 posts in 1255 days


#23 posted 1059 days ago

What kind of wood were you working with? It must have been petrified.

I have a 1023slw from Grizzly and it does everything I need it to and more. Put a Ridge Carbide 2000 blade on it and ot cuts 10/4 walnut like butter.

Last month I purchased a G0514×2b I think) 19” 3HP bandsaw. Put a timberwolf blade on it and it resaws 8” walnut like butter. Easy setup and delivered to my local UPS hub damage free in 48 hours. I couldn’t be happier with the two Grizzly tools I have and see an 8” Griz jointer in my very near future.

-- Kevin, South Carolina

View Howie's profile

Howie

2656 posts in 1550 days


#24 posted 1059 days ago

For a guy that went out and bought all this equipment I wonder what he intended to do with it. 394 days and not a project posted…...but qualified to review equipment!
Something smells and it isn’t sawdust.

Maybe some pictures of all this equipment in your shop would help…....

-- Life is good.

View tenontim's profile

tenontim

2131 posts in 2371 days


#25 posted 1059 days ago

I didn’t bother to read your rant either. Another guy on here doesn’t use periods, I don’t read his stuff either.
But to put in my two cents worth, I usually read the tool reviews on equipment I thinking about buying. If it’s rated good, I’ll buy it. I’ve had a 15” Grizzly planer for about 6 years, used it in a commercial setting and it hasn’t missed a beat. I’m thinking about dropping $600 into it for a shelix head upgrade. I think it will save me on blades in the long run. I have a Grizzly radial drill press that has been satisfactory, also.
You just have to research what you want to buy. I have had some of their smaller tools that are junk.

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dbhost

5378 posts in 1859 days


#26 posted 1059 days ago

WHY ARE YOU YELLING?

-- My workshop blog can be found at http://daves-workshop.blogspot.com

View HorizontalMike's profile (online now)

HorizontalMike

6923 posts in 1541 days


#27 posted 1059 days ago

Howie nailed it IMO.

”twiceisnice” not only has NO projects and NO workshop but: NO Real Name NO Location/Map – Not even state or country NO Website NO Favorites NO Blogs

I guess this is just the new normal. So is this the new stealth,... establishing an account, letting it sit relatively dormant for a year and then rant on a particular product?

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View maljr1980's profile

maljr1980

171 posts in 1083 days


#28 posted 1059 days ago

grizzly is ok for a hobbyist/homeowner lol, but you get what you pay for. not top quality but better than a craftsman. not everyone can afford an altendorf slider, or a hoffman cnc

View twiceisnice's profile

twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#29 posted 1059 days ago

HOWIE – My machines was not defective at the same time. It was over time.
CRANK49- Does not own any grizzly tools. I wonder why.
BERTHA- I hate selling faulty machinery to someone. thats not me.
DANR- They might come from the same factory , but the specs are different . You can buy a dodge ram 2 door or a dodge ram megacab. So the delta unisaw is similar to the grizzly saws .
JERKEYLIPS- When I was a newbie jerkeylips. I bought the tools over time . Theres no motive ,just giving my facts.
PERPLEV- Thank you for understanding.
HARTMANN- You are 100% wrong.
PARISWOODWORKING- Good choice on some of your tools.
AUTUMN- I praise you.
BOBSMYUNCLE- Nice
BIGKEV- When you get your jointer , get it with spiral cutterhead.
HOWIE- I absolutely do nothing with my tools. Nice sofa table . I like building sideboards or servers. mostly give to friends and relations.
TENONTIM- Good call on the spiral upgrade. If you would have read my post, I rated the 20” planer I have very high.
DBHOST- I’m not yelling.
HORIZONTILMIKE- Nice veritas bench vice . I have some of their hand planes. Good quality tools. I see you have pages of projects built. I like the chairs that are with the dropleaf table. Table looks great.
MALJR1980-True. You get what you pay for.

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5418 posts in 2002 days


#30 posted 1059 days ago

The thing is, much of the Grizzly equipment is very similar to most other Asian imports…often coming from the same factories. There are differences to what gets bolted to the castings, but the castings are very similar between Jet, GI, Grizzly, Steel City, Shop Fox, Woodtek, some Delta, some PM, etc. Grizzly is less expensive mainly because there’s no dealer markup, not because they’re made cheaper. If you’re willing to be your own middleman, there are legitimate savings there. If you want dealer support, pay the man (or woman). If you truly want higher end machinery, you need to step beyond the consumer names into the true industrial grade stuff that obviously costs a lot more….Altendorf, Martin, etc.

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

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twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#31 posted 1058 days ago

KNOTSCOTT- I agree . Don’t forget about better electricals and motors.

View HorizontalMike's profile (online now)

HorizontalMike

6923 posts in 1541 days


#32 posted 1058 days ago

”Don’t forget about better electricals and motors.”

I don’t know about that, but I sure like that 3hp Leeson motor in my G0690 TS. FWIW, I still think a lot of quality questions can be or are answered depending on where on each company’s food change you are purchasing.

EVERY company seems to have a ”price leader” at the bottom to get you in the door. In that sense, Grizzly is no different than any of the other manufacturers. My suggestion is to always shop a couple of models higher on the menu. My 2-cents…

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Bill White's profile

Bill White

3404 posts in 2587 days


#33 posted 1058 days ago

I’m very pleased with my two Grizz products. 0444Z TS and 1067Z lathe. I’ll stay with their products until I’m let down.
I also like my Stanley planes after properly tuning them.
So there!
Bill

-- bill@magraphics.us

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twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#34 posted 1058 days ago

HorizontalMike So they did put some quality in the motor.

View Bertha's profile

Bertha

12951 posts in 1320 days


#35 posted 1058 days ago

^Twice, I wasn’t suggesting that you sell a DEFECTIVE product to a poor soul; but if you just don’t LIKE the machine, judging by the popularity here, you shouldn’t have trouble selling it.

I also agree with Mike about their range of offerings. Go to Mercedes and ask about a C250; then go back a week later and ask about a S550; see which coffee is better;)

I have friends who are very happy with both upper end Grizzly’s and Grizzly metalworking tools.

-- My dad and I built a 65 chev pick up.I killed trannys in that thing for some reason-Hog

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3511 posts in 1105 days


#36 posted 1058 days ago

first off i don’t give a damn if you post in all caps i assume you made a mistake and the harping on it makes me sick. Grow up people we all are not as good at typing as you. secondly i am sorry you are disappointed in your choices, why don’t you just sell the whole shop and start over.

I have to say the sad thing is American craftsmanship is dead. The tools made here are just as poor as the tools made in the shops of Asia. We are loosing the industrial race here people we need to change our work habits force the grocers and drug companies to stop raping us. We need to revamp our healthcare system and face it if we don’t change soon we will be another Roman empire surviving well beyond our usefulness. When i was young made in America meant something. just because it is made here doesn’t make it better, what made in America was about was what Ford, Chevy, Cadillac, or should i say Powermatic. Delta, Rockwell. The fact is Delta is the only one still made in the U.S.A.

I think we can still save America, but we will have to deflate our currency back to the Gold standard and we will have to work hard for less money many of us are already. We will have to rebuild American technology we need to support only American Companies and that means no excuses buy only made in America. Demand American companies make their goods here or you don’t buy them this may mean finding new brands. For example my favorite Levis used to be made in California where did they go I notice the price of jeans didn’t go down when they moved, all that happened was the company made more money.

As for those of you harping on this poor guy stop the bashing. i don’t like bullies ill invite any of you to match wits with my son in law the great English professor. I could have him join LJ to come thrash you all for your bad writing and typing. just leave the guy alone and the first one of you that is perfect can bitch about my post.

I am sure i missed a period here and there forgive my ignorance .

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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bigkev

197 posts in 1255 days


#37 posted 1058 days ago

Ignorance forgiven.

-- Kevin, South Carolina

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pierce85

508 posts in 1189 days


#38 posted 1058 days ago

Dude – take a look at his past posting behavior. The caps and lack of punctuation are not incidental. I also “don’t give a damn” if he chooses to post in this fashion. I just won’t read it…

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thedude50

3511 posts in 1105 days


#39 posted 1058 days ago

is there a way to read only his posts i love lj but the board seems to lack features like view all of this persons posts. I will try to look but i see a guy who inst great at tech. maybe I am wrong but i don’t mind the first guy saying that he typed with his caps on its the 10 posts of the same that i don’t like .

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

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ShaneA

5286 posts in 1225 days


#40 posted 1058 days ago

You can view his activity thru his “home”.

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therookie

887 posts in 1454 days


#41 posted 1058 days ago

hey a 24” planer for $800 versus a 24” powermatic for 3900 I am going on the low side because I MAINTAIN amy and all equipment I have and use

-- http://aewoodworks.webs.com

View thedude50's profile

thedude50

3511 posts in 1105 days


#42 posted 1058 days ago

I tried that it doesn’t take me to his post just to the thread . unless i am stupid!

-- when I am not on Lumberjocks I am on @ http://thisoldworkshop.com where we allow free speech

View wasmithee's profile

wasmithee

55 posts in 1320 days


#43 posted 1058 days ago

View twiceisnice's profile

twiceisnice

95 posts in 1454 days


#44 posted 1058 days ago

THISISGOINGTOBEBIBLICAL. tHISIs GoIngto BeBIBLICAL. DANGIT This isgoing to BE biBLIcaL. %#$ THIS IS GOOINGTOOO BE biBLIcal %)&* this is going tobe biblical . T'his is GO ING TO BE BIB LI CAL . This is going to be biblical. I got it, holy%#$ i can’t believe it .

View Roger Clark aka Rex's profile

Roger Clark aka Rex

6940 posts in 2062 days


#45 posted 1058 days ago

Let us prey

-- Roger-R, Republic of Texas. "Always look on the Bright Side of Life" - An eyeball to eyeball confrontation with a blind person is as complete waste of Time.

View Tennessee's profile

Tennessee

1447 posts in 1141 days


#46 posted 1057 days ago

I bought the Grizz G1043DX sprial cutterhead planer, 15”
The motor burned out after about 15 minutes of running, Grizz sent me another. (I think just a cap died, but have not had the time to look into it.) I had to install it.
Then I could not get it to quit sniping. I know every planer has some sniping, but this was nuts. Book was no help, so I finally just put the bottom rollers down to .002 or less above the table and it solved the problem.
Had a friend who bought the same machine, he complained to me “How do I get all this grease off the cutter wheel?”
I told him to wipe off as much as possible, then to put a 2X4 through the planer time and time again until it quits throwing grease. Problem solved!!
I think Grizz makes a great “budget” tool, which for a lot of us is all we’ll ever get. For my money, I’ll never walk into a Sears again after the experience I’ve had with their tools, and their famous warranty which didn’t cover “sharpened edges”, at least years ago when I tried to return a couple things that had failed.
Sorry, not a Craftsman guy…

-- Paul, Tennessee, http://www.tsunamiguitars.com

View knotscott's profile

knotscott

5418 posts in 2002 days


#47 posted 1057 days ago

”Let us prey”

LOL….that’s good! :-D

-- Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

View Roger Clark aka Rex's profile

Roger Clark aka Rex

6940 posts in 2062 days


#48 posted 1056 days ago

cr1,
I hope you find one.

-- Roger-R, Republic of Texas. "Always look on the Bright Side of Life" - An eyeball to eyeball confrontation with a blind person is as complete waste of Time.

View HorizontalMike's profile (online now)

HorizontalMike

6923 posts in 1541 days


#49 posted 1056 days ago

Nah, I’m just a deadbeat buzzard scavenger. I let cr1 and Rex do all the dirty Preyin’ ‘N Killin’ stuff.
I like my meals for free.

;-)

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View mcase's profile

mcase

438 posts in 1756 days


#50 posted 1056 days ago

Soft iron? I really noticed this on my Industrial Sawstop table saw (almost $4,000.00). It seems to scratch and wear more readily than my past table saws. Compare this to my $850.00 Grizzly G0490 jointer which has no noticeable wear. The Griz by the way has PLENTY of power. Its also dead flat which never seems to be the case with the new Powermatics. Fit and finish seem ok too, certainly on par with the new Deltas. Two years and its fine. Ask me again in eight years. If it last that long I got my $850 worth.

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