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View richgreer's profile

Frustrating Carpentry work

by richgreer
posted 08-29-2011 06:30 PM

21 replies so far

View nailbanger2's profile


1041 posts in 3143 days

#1 posted 08-29-2011 06:42 PM

Welcome to my world, Rich. I choose to think it makes you a better all around woodworker. I do hear what you are saying, though.

-- Wish I were Norm's Nephew

View Dan's profile


3630 posts in 2880 days

#2 posted 08-29-2011 06:43 PM

Rich, I couldn’t agree more. I am currently building some built in book shelves for my sister at her house and I am running into the same problems. I spent more time so far trying to figure out how to hide gaps with trim then I have spent building the shelves.

Its hard to forget what you know and do things your normally wouldn’t do but sometimes its what you have to do. How contractors build homes with warped and twisted 2×4s is a mystery.

-- Dan - "Collector of Hand Planes"

View jerkylips's profile


409 posts in 2570 days

#3 posted 08-29-2011 06:53 PM

Here’s the problem as I see it. When doing carpentry/framing/etc/projects and something isn’t quite as precise as it should be, I’ve been known to utter the phrase, “I ain’t buildin’ a church!”. Unfortunately for you… are…. ;)

View Gene Howe's profile

Gene Howe

10479 posts in 3428 days

#4 posted 08-29-2011 08:06 PM

I feel your pain.
My solution is to do the best I can to “make it work” and still be safe, then move on to the next part of the project.

-- Gene 'The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.' G. K. Chesterton

View richgreer's profile


4541 posts in 3074 days

#5 posted 08-29-2011 08:14 PM

I think part of the issue is the quality of the construction lumber that is used. I purchased 2×4s for studs and 2×6s for joists for this project. I spent a long time combing through what was available at Lowes and rejected at least 2 of every 3 I looked at. Even then, I did not have perfectly straight boards. I’m sure someone else will eventually buy the boards I rejected. I’ve been a volunteer at Habitat for Humanity building projects and some of the boards they had were absolutely terrible – - but they used them.

-- Rich, Cedar Rapids, IA - I'm a woodworker. I don't create beauty, I reveal it.

View TopamaxSurvivor's profile


18271 posts in 3675 days

#6 posted 08-29-2011 08:39 PM

It doesn’t really mater if it was built square and plumb, building are dynamic so they don’t stay that was very long.

-- Bob in WW ~ "some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence

View Dallas's profile


3599 posts in 2487 days

#7 posted 08-29-2011 09:07 PM

Hee Hee Hee…. I’m working on an Avion camp trailer right now and there is no single place that it is square, plumb or true. Even the bathtub is built like an hour glass sideways.

Don’t worry so much about doing as you would when you are building cabinets, build the framing part as if you were a framer, then do the trim part as if you were a trim carpenter. By the time you get to the fancy stuff, like cabinetry, you’ll be able to cut and nip and stuff until it all works.

In the 80’s I was the layout guy for a large remodeling contractor in Atlanta. I could lay out a pad, have it within 1/16” and by the time the framers got to the top plate it would be out by up to an inch. The concrete guys wouldn’t lay the pad right, leave too much area for the J-bolts, etc. The framers would see the J-bolts, and center the walls on those. The walls would bend and warp with changes in humidity and temp, besides being really crappy low end lumber, and by the time they got to the roof peak, it was all just fine.
Framing doesn’t need perfect joints. Shims hide a lot of problems with trim work, once the dry wall is up, no one will see it and you build the cabinets to fit the space.

Spin forward to 1992….. I worked as a supervisor on a crew for Jim Walters Homes. 3 weeks, start to finish for a 3200 sq ft 2 storey house. This means ‘move in ready’. What a load of crap. I watched some of the worst building practices I’ve ever seen. Everything from studs with one nail so they would swivel to top plates with gaps 6” wide. Roof trusses that weren’t nailed into the top plate, sub floor that was held down with nothing more than glue. Concrete that was too wet/dry to support the structure. 4” footers.

I love working on old buildings! I once worked on the Pike Place Market building in Seattle. 9 floors from top to ground, the top floor east is three blocks of the bottom floor entrance west. I was responcible for the flooring replacement of 4 floors. If you go in there to this day, you will not be able to tell where I replaced a piece, a whole board, or a 10’X10’ section, and none of it was square.

Good luck, Keep your stick on the ice!


-- Improvise.... Adapt...... Overcome!

View teejk's profile


1215 posts in 2684 days

#8 posted 08-29-2011 09:12 PM

so now you know why we need casing/baseboard/quarter round etc.!

and even if perfect now, give those 2x’s a few months and it won’t be.

and probably a good bet that you (and only you) will notice any flaws.

View Woodwrecker's profile


4149 posts in 3575 days

#9 posted 08-29-2011 09:19 PM

You are earning some extra blessings my friend.
Keep up the good work.

-- Eric, central Florida / Utor praemia operibus duris

View rance's profile


4258 posts in 3160 days

#10 posted 08-29-2011 09:51 PM

Another place for that 2° putty it seems.

-- Backer boards, stop blocks, build oversized, and never buy a hand plane--

View Cozmo35's profile


2200 posts in 3035 days

#11 posted 08-29-2011 09:54 PM

Rich, I LIVE in a place like that. I swear, if I find the guy who built my house, I am going to beat him with a carpenters square! I feel your pain!

-- If you don't work, you don't eat!.....Garland, TX

View patron's profile


13604 posts in 3341 days

#12 posted 08-29-2011 10:05 PM

make your door 26” parralel
then trim one or both sides to fit

saves un-square fitting
of the build

-- david - only thru kindness can this world be whole . If we don't succeed we run the risk of failure. Dan Quayle

View Jim Bertelson's profile

Jim Bertelson

4174 posts in 3164 days

#13 posted 08-29-2011 10:14 PM

Let’s see, a few comments…....

On the last remodel, the middle one third, one third still to go, the contractor gave up on one wall in put in steel studs, he couldn’t find any wood ones that were usable….......

Mind you, the purchaser of his services technically is my wife and I, but really, it is my wife Sherie. When we were looking at houses in La Conner, Washington, (and we bought one), Sherie would walk into the house and within 30 seconds point out sanding marks on a wood floor over in some corner the the realtor and I would never notice forever, or not for a few months. The realtor had worked a lot of construction in his time, and saw most everything. He couldn’t believe The Hawk (Sherie).

Just be happy Sherie isn’t judging the results. We have a great contractor, and he only works cost plus, so nothing is spared… he used metal studs. He understands Sherie well.

My Multi-Function Bench…....

I culled a bunch of studs at the BORG, knowing I was going to put a bunch of extra wood into this thing for weight and rigidity. Also used a bunch of Chinese plywood for the same reason. Between the studs and the plywood, the cheap materials probably added 20 hours to the project….....not worth it.

So I took the carefull culled studs home, and then culled them again. One out of three were accepted, that’s after culling them at the BORG. Hmmmmm. So I am being more select than you, Rich, because I am using them for an even more exacting project.

There are a few steps that lead to such bad materials I suspect, and I bet there is more than one person in our ranks that can comment on it.

My guess:

Fast growing coarse grained trees.
Inadequate drying and handling processes.
Milling procedures and machines that conserve wood rather than emphasizing quality.

I suspect it will get worse before it gets better…......

-- Jim, Anchorage Alaska

View wchips's profile


314 posts in 3088 days

#14 posted 08-30-2011 04:20 AM

I have hung cabinets in new houses that are not plumb or square.

-- wchips

View greg48's profile


601 posts in 2757 days

#15 posted 08-30-2011 04:43 AM

Speaking of poor materials, I am reminded of the time I used to work for a large timber company who produced redwood and doug-fir construction grade lumber. When I commented on the amount of “wane” on the lumber, the gen’l. mgr. said “Yep, sell ‘em what ain’t there. The company has since passed on from this state.

-- Greg, No. Cal. - "Gaudete in Domino Semper"

View Peter Oxley's profile

Peter Oxley

1426 posts in 3874 days

#16 posted 08-30-2011 05:02 AM

I set cabinets in a house that was only 10 or 15 years old … in one section, the floor sloped down ½” in four feet, and then back up ½” in the next four feet. Good times.

-- -- --

View Richard's profile


297 posts in 2537 days

#17 posted 08-30-2011 06:22 AM

Rich… My buddy… Be strong… You are doing a great thing and I am proud of you for doing it. I am certain all will look unbelievable.
Speaking of “unbelievable”, I recently looked at a six figure + brand-new home in my area. When I walked into the study/library, I couldn’t find the light switch inside or outside… Either side of the french doors. When I shouted out to realtor, she laughed and said,”just inside the door, of course”. Turned out it was… Just inside the door… Of the storage closet in the hallway just outside of the study.
I have nothing to answer to that…

Peace and blessed be.

-- 'I sand, therefore, I am'. Richard. PNW.

View Ken90712's profile


17556 posts in 3188 days

#18 posted 08-30-2011 11:30 AM

I feel your pain brother. Good luck!

-- Ken, "Everyday above ground is a good day!"

View Flyin636's profile


57 posts in 2493 days

#19 posted 08-30-2011 12:30 PM

Kinda lost me,I thought carpenters were woodworkers?

Skill levels apply to every craft…....meaning,if some dorkwad can’t frame a door opening sq,somehow thats an indictment of the trade?Beats me,Flyin

View teejk's profile


1215 posts in 2684 days

#20 posted 08-30-2011 08:06 PM


I quit buying Borg lumber years ago and will pay the premium for good quality stuff…I insist on painted ends and product that is stored outside under cover so it is allowed to shift with changes in outdoor temp/humidity. seems to be more predictable as to how it is going to “behave” when I get it home and let it lay around for a few days or weeks. I used to live near a lumber yard that would refuse a load of 2×4’s if the bundle had more than 2 bands on it.

View Jim Bertelson's profile

Jim Bertelson

4174 posts in 3164 days

#21 posted 08-31-2011 04:53 PM

Yes, I am learning those things the hard way. Part of my problem is that I am old enough to remember the days when construction grade lumber was pretty good stuff, and I got used to it. Now I have to relearn how and where to buy wood.

-- Jim, Anchorage Alaska

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