LumberJocks

All Replies on Try Again or Trash It?

  • Advertise with us
View JSMorgan's profile

Try Again or Trash It?

by JSMorgan
posted 10-09-2017 03:49 PM


30 replies so far

View Loren's profile (online now)

Loren

9980 posts in 3556 days


#1 posted 10-09-2017 03:58 PM

Insufficient build of shellac would be my
suspicion. It takes more than one coat
of shellac to seal a stained surface and
build a consistent surface film.

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#2 posted 10-09-2017 04:08 PM

Loren: I plan on re-sanding and try one more time. I just don’t get why this is going on. It looks like there may have been air bubbles and once scuffed, it shows the same dull spots and doesn’t take a finish or a seal coat.

View Rich's profile

Rich

2295 posts in 498 days


#3 posted 10-09-2017 04:49 PM

To add to Loren’s comment, use a 2 lb cut of shellac. Bulls Eye Seal Coat is a 2 lb cut and will build much faster than lighter cuts. You’ll still need multiple coats though.

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

8908 posts in 1394 days


#4 posted 10-09-2017 04:50 PM

Could be the grain rising and diving. Hard to say.

I second Loren.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View AandCstyle's profile

AandCstyle

2979 posts in 2166 days


#5 posted 10-09-2017 09:38 PM

JS, have you tried rubbing out the finish with progressively higher grits until you reach your desired sheen?

-- Art

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#6 posted 10-10-2017 03:16 PM

A&C: That’s the problem. It does not rub out. Any spot only gets bigger when you try to sand it. I did apply a coat of shellac (on a small place) as suggested above and it did improve some. I plan on adding a full coat of shellac and then wait a few days and try the gel stain again. Thanks for your help.

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

842 posts in 725 days


#7 posted 10-10-2017 03:51 PM

I am just curious about the complex finishing schedule. That is a lot of different products and all of them need to 100% dried or cured before moving to the next step. That would require weeks.

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#8 posted 10-10-2017 04:01 PM

Art: It has been weeks with several days between each coat, along with scuff sanding.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

1273 posts in 1706 days


#9 posted 10-10-2017 04:11 PM

Black is the hardest finish to get right. Even a flat or satin look is difficult. Dont beat yourself up its not just you. :(

-- Aj

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#10 posted 10-10-2017 04:22 PM

AJ: Thanks, I am earning that! I did a hutch and cabinet out of the same wood and steps and it turned out okay. Not great but seeing as this is my first project, not too bad.

View Rich's profile

Rich

2295 posts in 498 days


#11 posted 10-10-2017 04:40 PM


Black is the hardest finish to get right. Even a flat or satin look is difficult. Dont beat yourself up its not just you. :(

- Aj2

That’s true for automobile paint jobs, but dye problems on wood have to do with color consistency and accuracy. And yes, they say black is a tough one to get even color on.

Maybe I’m misreading the OP, but it sounds like he’s having problems getting a smooth surface. That would be an issue with wood prep, top coat application or even contaminates since it’s not affecting the entire surface.

Am I wrong about that, JSMorgan? Is it the color or the quality of the surface?

-- No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2267 posts in 3779 days


#12 posted 10-10-2017 05:03 PM

Whats the wood ?

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#13 posted 10-10-2017 05:08 PM

Rich: Yes, it is the quality of the surface and it is effecting the finish. As for wood prep: Sanded to 180, wiped with mineral spirits, applied dye stain, scuffed with 180, reapplied dye stain, applied shellac then applied stain. Dull finish in surface and when sanded, the area seems to spread. As I’ve said, I did a base cabinet and hutch the same way and it turned out okay.

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#14 posted 10-10-2017 05:56 PM

Mr Neil: Cherry

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2267 posts in 3779 days


#15 posted 10-10-2017 06:15 PM

did you wipe /brush the shellac I respectfully disagree about black being a hard color ,its one of the easiest, There is only one color of black.
Its the sheen and top coat that make the difference . Most blacks are not black, they are very dark blues /greens .
I am surprised your dying Cherry black…
Let me respond more in the am. In a class at the moment

We can fix this .

View pintodeluxe's profile

pintodeluxe

5569 posts in 2722 days


#16 posted 10-10-2017 06:26 PM

...I then applied a coat of Shellac. 5. I then applied 2 coats of GF Gel Stain. Sanding all between coats…

I just want to rule out the basics here, but did you sand the stain and dye coats too? I have done many of these multi-step stain and dye projects and I never sand the dye or stain step. I only scuff sand the shellac seal coat step, and each coat of topcoat. What is your topcoat?

I sand the shellac with 320 or finer grit, and sand the topcoat steps with 1000-1500 grit soft sanding sponges. The final topcoat gets wet sanded with a 1500 grit soft sanding sponge.

I may be misreading your post, but if you’re sanding the stain or dye steps, that is the problem.

- JSMorgan

-- Willie, Washington "If You Choose Not To Decide, You Still Have Made a Choice" - Rush

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#17 posted 10-10-2017 06:48 PM

Pinto: All I did was “scuff” sand the dye stains and the shellac. As for topcoat, I had planed on using GF Arm R Seal or Lacquer. I’ve not added a topcoat as I want to solve the issue with the dullness.

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#18 posted 10-10-2017 06:53 PM

Mr. Neil: I agree. It was my wife that wanted cherry but she wanted it stained, not painted, black. And, since I have to live with her I went with her choice, believe me not mine! As for the shellac, I brushed it on. Perhaps scuff sanding and spraying a few coats of shellac would be helpful. I did spray (from a can) a small area and that seemed to help somewhat. You can still see the imperfection.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

3913 posts in 2218 days


#19 posted 10-10-2017 08:34 PM

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

3913 posts in 2218 days


#20 posted 10-10-2017 08:35 PM

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#21 posted 10-10-2017 08:53 PM

Alaska, thanks for rotating. I could not figure out how to do it here.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2267 posts in 3779 days


#22 posted 10-11-2017 01:24 PM

Still not sure why all the various stains and dyes, a good dye, with some india ink in it would have given you a super nice black color.
If is not black enough at this point, give it a light scuff sand with some 600, then get some india ink from the craft store, its water base. thin i just a little , you have to experiment here a little. The stronger the better. Then use it as a glaze,meaning wip a coat on and hopefully enough will hang on to give you a nice true black,
When dry, do your topcoats, your dull areas are simply not enough finish has been applied,
One note is that you applied a water base dye, then wiped a shellac ( alcohol) which will pull alot of color off often times.
the term is like on like, meaning water/ alcohol when wiped over a like product can remove it.
Its best to seal the color in with either anoil like the Arm R seal if wiping or spray the shellac .
Hope this makes sense

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

1727 posts in 1296 days


#23 posted 10-11-2017 02:40 PM

Charles, For future reference, after staining (either water based or oil), is the coat of shellac even necessary (or recommended for that matter) before applying the topcoat? If I recall, GF website says that their topcoats are compatible with all of their dyes and stains as long as they are completely dry so just wondering if the shellac provides a benefit, other than to fix the problem at hand?

BTW, I have had success darkening a GF water based stain using black Transtint dye. Might be an alternative to india ink or multiple applications of stains and dyes? My 2 cents.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2267 posts in 3779 days


#24 posted 10-11-2017 02:52 PM

The shellac isnt really needed , Especially if spraying the topcoats,
My Mo is, dye , spray a first coat of lacquer or wipe a coat of Arm r seal, then scuff lightly ,then using the same dye/stain, do a glaze coat… and added topcoats,.
Glazing really helps

View jbay's profile

jbay

2004 posts in 808 days


#25 posted 10-11-2017 03:03 PM

Pretty much the same here.
I spray the stain (oil base) and wipe all off, then I increase the air pressure, decrease the material,
and do what I call a light fog coat concentrating on light spots to even it out.
Then I move on to spraying top coat after it dries. I have touched up with stain after my first coat of lacquer,
but generally don’t like putting too much on. Really have to be sure stain is dry. The thing about the lacquer is that it melts all the layers together, to a point.
I think if the stain is too heavy over the first coat it prohibits the melting together, just what I’ve noticed with my experiences.
I guess mileage varies using different types of materials.

-- If anyone would like to see my Portfolio, PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#26 posted 10-11-2017 03:23 PM

Thanks all for the help / suggestions. As I’ve said, this is part of my first project. From what I gather, my next step should be to scuff sand and apply the ARM R Seal. I have a fresh can of Arm R Seal and some Black Transtint. Should I add some of the transtint to the Arm R Seal or just go without it? Thanks everyone!!

View JSMorgan's profile

JSMorgan

29 posts in 186 days


#27 posted 10-11-2017 03:25 PM

Should I topcoat with Lacquer instead of Arm R Seal?

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2267 posts in 3779 days


#28 posted 10-11-2017 03:55 PM

dont add TT to the Arm R seal .. its hard to get even ..

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

1727 posts in 1296 days


#29 posted 10-11-2017 04:17 PM

You cannot use Transtint dyes with oil based solvents. Water, alcohol and lacquer only.
Here is a good overview of how to use. There is a list of “known incompatibles” near the bottom.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

1727 posts in 1296 days


#30 posted 10-11-2017 04:40 PM



Should I topcoat with Lacquer instead of Arm R Seal?

- JSMorgan

I wouldn’t unless the piece is very small and can use the rattle can spray or you have professional spraying equipment (and more experience). A finish like Arm R Seal is very forgiving if you wipe on multiple thin coats with proper light sanding between coats.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com