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beginner equipment: new vs old

3K views 26 replies 20 participants last post by  SCOTSMAN 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I read through the thread about new iron vs old iron already. I'm all for old iron but to be frank, there aren't a lot of options on my local CL. I have never worked with saws beyond the occasional miter saw. I'm technically inclined (right at home with computers, sketch plans out pretty well IMO), but I would not call myself a woodworker- yet.

That said, here are my constraints: time, lack of mechanical repair knowledge/experience/interest, storage/humidity, transportation, and of course, budget.

Time: I can maybe dedicate 1-2hrs/wk to this. Right now those 1-2hrs go towards scouring CL unsuccessfully. That makes me sad.

Mechanical inexperience: Adding some lubricant or cleaning off some surface rust is ok. Anything more demanding (i.e.: grinding an arbor flat, any metalwork, anything requiring ownership of a starret square and standards) is pretty much a deal breaker. I just don't think I can spend the time fiddling with the gear and still make the things I care about making.

Storage/humidity: Two options. If I store in a climate controlled basement, it absolutely needs to be compact/portable enough for me to get up about 9 steps to the driveway to work outside. (forbidden from filling up the basement with sawdust…). If I store in the detached non-climate controlled garage, it will be left to probably rust most days of the humid St. Louis summer. I would be shocked if any cast iron could last a summer in any non-climate-controlled St. Louis garage.

Transportation: I drive a camry. If it can't fit in the trunk and be moved by me solo (I'm a 5'6" / 150lbs), it's got to be delivered. My work hours are too crazy to depend on friends to pick up a CL deal unless it's planned far out in advance.

Budget: I'm pretty broke, but I'm willing to splurge every now and then. I want induction and cabinet mounted trunnions, but getting both is probably unrealistic. The problem is that I don't know if I'll live here for more than 4 years, and I'm not about to get a stationary tool that is difficult to move. Personal budget is a $300-500 cap for a TS. $1k to outfit a basic shop.

Leaning towards:
Garage TS: 60s-70s craftsman/homecraft TS/jointer for $150-250. Leave it in the garage since it'll probably already have rust anyway. Have not had any success in locating this.
Fence: DIY extruded aluminum incra wannabe vs Vega kit.

Basement: SCMS/Router.
SCMS: HF 12" dual bevel SCMS vs newly released Craftsman 10" Compact SCMS (rail forward design like the festool).
Router: Bosch LV1617. Build a table or buy one of the pre made tops and fit it to something more stable.

The other idea is to get a Craftsman Professional 21829 and a router of my choosing. Looks like a BT3000 successor with folding rolling stand and router table. That could be stored in the basement and wheeled outside for use. But then I'd have to spend $600 on a Craftsman. That feels weird.

Thoughts?
 
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#2 ·
Don't forget to factor in all the other odds and ends into your budget. Chisels, clamps, adhesives, sandpaper, layout/measurement tools, etc.

I would look for an old craftsman 113.xxx style saw that's in good condition. They made a million of them. I got mine for $100 and it had basically barely been run.
 
#4 ·
One option would be a granite-topped saw to be kept in the garage. Sadly, there is no longer anything like a regular source of that type of saw new (I'm speaking mainly of the Ridgid 4511). You could get lucky and find one on Craigslist, but they just didn't sell that many of those things, so they're pretty rare on CL in my experience.

You could go with an older Craftsman or Ridgid contractor-type-saw and Shellac the top. That will prevent rust pretty much completely. You'd have to wax the thing regularly to keep it slick, and you might have to reapply the Shellac every now and then, but it'd definitely be capable of staying in the garage.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
1~2 hours per week is not enough to do much of anything (I spend more than 1~2 hours thinking about how to proceed.) Your hurdles are many but where there's a will there's a way.

Many people on this forum and in woodworking in general use their garages as their shops so I wouldn't worry about storing your tools there. Just cover them up when you're not using them and put a tub of desiccant under the cover to keep it dry. If possible, maybe you could put large pneumatic, lockable wheels on a workbench with drawers and all your small tools could be wheeled out at the same time.

Start small with a narrow focus. Maybe you'll only need hand tools. That seems to be a point of pride for some woodworkers for whatever reason :p. Maybe you would want to concentrate on turning, such as candlesticks or chess pieces, or pens. ..Or maybe you want to concentrate on toys or picture frames. That would keep your tool outlay, storage space and tool transport to a minimum. The important thing is to enjoy what you're doing. The end result is merely the product of your enjoyment.
 
#6 ·
Consider a Eurekazone track saw kit.

If you want to make furniture a band saw is more
essential than a table saw, imo.

Having the machines doesn't get the work done.
You can do some nice smaller things by hand,
which is what everybody except professionals
with access to mill shops did before the 1930s.

Carving is one example of something that really
doesn't require power tools and which can be
an enjoyable, portable hobby.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
I know this is going to create a controversy but here goes. I realize that most people will say that the table saw is the heart of the shop. I don't necessarily disagree with that statement. However, for a very long time I did not have room for a full size table saw. I started to look at what operations I did with one and realized that I mostly used it for ripping narrow material. (Now I don't build small- I actually build a lot of large cabinetry.) I picked up a Dewalt DW745 with the rack and pinion fence. At the time, they only had a 16" rip capacity (the newer model has 20") but this was sufficient because for anything over that, I used a track saw and guide to cut (you can also use the Eurekazone mentioned above or just a circ saw with a homemade zero clearance guide). For small crosscuts, I used a 10" or 12" Compound Miter Saw. My shop consisted of the DW745 ($300), a Hitachi 10" Compound Miter Saw ($100), an 8" Drill Press ($75), a circ saw with homemade guide ($120), a jointer (CL $125), 5 routers (most from CL- $150),Cordless drill kit ($100), sabre saw ($75) and corded drill ($50). That's $1095. A lot of it I didn't even pay for as I asked for it for Christmas or Birthday presents. The smaller table saw was not cast iron- so I didn't have to worry about rust. All of the items here would fit in the trunk of my Honda Accord and I could pick them up alone. (With the exception of the jointer- I did start with the 8" Jet jointer/planer combo. It actually worked great for me and did fit in the trunk. However, I got a great deal on a Ridgid 6" and upgraded.) The beauty of that DeWalt table saw was (and is) that, if you take care of it, you can sell it for a decent price when you're in a position to upgrade. Or, you can keep it and leave it set up for ripping tasks when the larger table saw you'll eventually get is set up for dadoes, etc.

There's a guy at the college where I work who does all the carpentry in the building. He is, without a doubt, the most gifted craftsman I have ever seen. He can put in stud walls, build furniture or make the most intricate wooden craft items you've ever seen. All he has in the shop here is an old Makita 8" benchtop table saw (model 2708), a drill press, band saw, sanding station, 10" miter saw, router, cordless drill and some hand tools.

Everytime I think I need a fancier tool, I think of him and realize it's not the tool, it's the craftsman.
 
#10 ·
The old 9" tilt-top Delta table saws are very accurate
for joinery and take up very little space. They can rip
modest widths as well. They run on induction motors
and can sometimes be found mounted together
with a jointer powered from the same motor.

With a benchtop planer and a Eurekazone for larger
pieces you can do cabinetmaking with this sort
of setup.

If you want to do furniture the band saw is most
useful. The glues in plywoods dull band saw blades
quickly and chew up jointer knives, so while
sheet goods can be worked with the band saw
and jointer, it does add to usage costs.
 
#11 ·
No controversy. Where there is a will, there is a way. You do with what is available. I've seen some very nice woodworking done with only a hand electric drill and a "skil" saw. With all the nice tools I have, I've seen others with much less, produce much better stuff than I could. I like to work with wood, but my real interest is working with metals. The type of project dictates what tools I use. Wood and metals are part of most of what I do, which is building large scale ride-on trains.
 
#12 ·
A quick glance at the St. Louis CL page turns up quite a few nice table saws for $200 or less.. and most can be broken down (remove table extensions, legs/base, motor, etc..) so they can be transported in a small vehicle. If you don't like any of the current offerings, then stay patient. There are always good deals to be found.

Cheers,
Brad
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
If you are space challenged but still want a quality tool that can cut large sheet goods with cabinet grade edges, consider a Festool 55 Plunge saw. Compact and can handle anything you throw at it. It does angle and miter work, and the fences can be shared with a router.

Pricey, but is a great solution for those who are tight on space and still need a quality cut.
 
#14 ·
Look for an old shopsmith. Almost a full shop in one compact peice of equiptment. Shop Yard sales and junk stores for most hand tools. Know what you are looking for and don't overpay for the first one you see. If you don't need it don't buy it. When you go in the door tell the opporator what you are looking for and only go to that section then leave without being distracted and buying eye candy. Let your friends know what you are looking for and you will end up with several tools that they never use. Watch that budget!
 
#15 ·
I had a Jet cabinet saw at one time but I find I don't miss it at all. I use a 10" band saw. If I need to cut plywood sheeting I use a DeWalt circular saw and with a little practice I found I could make as accurate cuts as I did on the table saw. With a band saw, circular saw, jig saw, router, drill press and assortment of hand tools you can make virtually anything. With a bit of searching you could find all of those tools within your budget. BTW, my previous shop was a very damp basement and was filled with tons of equipment that was made up of steel and iron. I had no problems with rust… but I rubbed paste wax on all exposed metal. Good luck with your woodworking endeavor, you will enjoy it!
 
#16 ·
Decide right now whether your time or money is more valuable. You can often save a lot of time by spending more money on a better tool, or the right tool. Try to boost your 1-2 hrs/wk to at least 6 hrs/wk or you'll never feel like you're accomplishing anything.

CL can be really hit or miss depending on your region. My CL market has been pretty pathetic for the past several years. This summer there have been a few ok deals here and there, but not enough to fully-equip a shop on a budget. Most of the good CL deals are far enough away that I'm just as well off buying new by the time I factor in gas and 6+ hrs of lost time.

Just for some perspective, I wasted years telling myself that I didn't have the money. I increased my shop budget in several steps, from $1000 to $3000 to $5000. Each time I increased my budget, I posted a question online asking if that was a reasonable budget. The answer was always, "Yes, if you buy everything on CL. Otherwise you need closer to $10k." Even $5k was only considered realistic if I was buying most of my stationary tools on CL.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
One option would be a granite-topped saw to be kept in the garage. Sadly, there is no longer anything like a regular source of that type of saw new (I m speaking mainly of the Ridgid 4511). You could get lucky and find one on Craigslist, but they just didn t sell that many of those things, so they re pretty rare on CL in my experience.

You could go with an older Craftsman or Ridgid contractor-type-saw and Shellac the top. That will prevent rust pretty much completely. You d have to wax the thing regularly to keep it slick, and you might have to reapply the Shellac every now and then, but it d definitely be capable of staying in the garage.

- jonah
This is false. steelcitytoolworks.com sells a full line of granite topped machines.

I have their contractor saw with a 30" rip and it's a joy to use. They offer a 52" rip contractor saw as well as up to a 5hp 12" cabinet saw.

I own a couple grizzly machine and I consider steel city to be on par with them.

Property Table Wood Interior design Sewing machine


It's covered in a bunch of stuff right now, it's a 100% granite top accept for the self made router wing. I actually use the granite top for glue ups. dried glue scrapes right off it like a glass top.

I bought my saw from the warehouse for $500 bucks.

Paul
 

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#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
Daily drivers
Plant Wood Gas Machine Metal


1925…. 24" Tannewitz Bandsaw
Wood Gas Machine tool Engineering Machine

Motor vehicle Machine tool Engineering Gas Toolroom


1950's Moak no 7…
Engineering Gas Industry Machine Electrical wiring

1895s Camelback ….
Wood Gas Machine tool Engineering Machine
!

bottom pic is a 1895 Camelback ,
Machine tool Engineering Milling Toolroom Wood


1960's Rockwell Lathe and Powermatic 45
Motor vehicle Gas Engineering Automotive exterior Machine


1960's ...Powermatic model 10

I have a 1935 mortice machine that runs days at a time , up till recently retiring, for the second time. I will get a pic . When I got it 30 years ago , I called the company up . I asked for a set of different size chisels for it . He said what machine do you exactly have , I told him. The answer was , oh hell we haven't made woodworking tools since 1935 . so it has to be older than that . I had it set to do one operation in the Barstool operation .
 

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#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
It seems like I'm trying to balance cost and time and I don't have too much of either, heh. I've reached out to a few of the CL listings (mainly the 60s-70s Craftsman's) to see if people were willing to deliver and it seems like a no go. Didn't realize that some of the other ones that I had ruled out would be easily disassembled. I'll have to reconsider some of the other contractor saws.

After building shop workspace out, my short term projects are: end grain cutting board, pantry shelving to a stairwell wall, a combined record player cabinet/record storage/amp/speaker unit.

More ambitious projects are: a modular queen platform bed with underbed storage, a nightstand to match an existing set, and a modular desk.

The record player cabinet is probably one of the more advanced projects (IMO), but my wife wants one soon and we're either going to buy $200 worth of particleboard or I'm going to get to practice building something that's hopefully a bit more lasting.

In the future I want to build some small jewelry box sized things (but that's mainly because they would be a perfect graduation gift). My main interest is furniture.

Edit: Anyone have any experience with the newer Craftsman Compact 10" SCMS? The forward rail design is pretty space saving, which is nice in a cramped basement or garage. I'm between that and the HF 12" dual bevel SCMS. Figure it's roughly $175+tax for the HF with coupon or $230+tax for the Craftsman.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
At 1~2 hours a week, large projects will be drawn out for a very long time, introducing problems like : Will you be able to store it safely between sessions ? Will you remember where you were from one time to the next ? It may take a good part of your dedicated time just to catch up. Can normally lengthy operations be successfully divided into small segments ? Marking of components will be necessary to remember where and how they go.

You and your wife may have to find temporary quarters for the record player, such as a dresser or table or something, until the custom cabinet is completed.

pandamonium, you've got a daunting challenge with your constraints. You may have to seriously consider if you really have the time and resources for a hobby. Have you considered, instead of buying equipment on Craig's List, buying used furniture items and refinishing them ?
 
#22 ·
Don't buy a SCMS. Waste of small budget at this point. Spend your money on a good tablesaw and the other needed tools. You can crosscut with a Tablesaw as well as a SCMS, but you can't rip a board with a SCMS.
 
#24 ·
You could start out with hand tools. It won't break the bank account and you can build just about anything with them. Next, start adding the portable power tools. These will enhance the hand tools and with both together you can build anything but won't break the bank account. Finally, start adding the stationary tools one by one starting with the table saw. Before you know it you will have a nice shop but haven't broken the bank account because you've spread it out.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
I started with all hand tools. I learned to sharpen hand saws, and the rest of the traditional tools.
Later I machined up to get more done.
I feel the hand tool experience was most valuable, as I got a better feel for the nature of wood. That experience is most helpful now, such as knowing the best way to machine wood, due to grain direction and such.
I often still use the hand tools, it can still be the best way to do many things.

My favorite hand tool is a Witherby 10" draw knife with adjustable handles, that thing can remove wood fast, or very fine shavings.
A good old miter box and saw, hand planes and chisels.
 
#26 ·
Pandamonium54:

1) Lived in St. Louis for awhile. My garage stored TS would stay rust free for 4-6 months, then overnight - boom; a layer of surface rust on top even when waxed before storage. What I learned - The challenge with your garage tool storage and the weather is not humidity levels, but condensation events. The weather fluctuates wildly, and when the temp drops suddenly, the colder equipment instantly gets a layer of condensation (occasionally in summer, but worse in spring/fall changes). Good waxing helps, but placing a simple cover on the cast iron when not in use for the water to condensate onto instead of on the iron, stops 99% of the flat surface rust issues. After using a cover, I never found rust on my saw top again unless I didn't use it for 6+ months and didn't wax it when put away for winter storage. You can spend money to buy a cool magnetic cover that doubles the TS as work table, but I found an old beach towel or blanket did the job just fine as long as I was using the saw/jointer/BS occasionally. You knew when the temp dropped massively to check it, could see water beading on the cover, and yet never had issues with cloth storing water against the iron surface. I eventually made a simple 1/4 Masonite piece to fit the saw with underside stop blocks to keep it from moving when using my TS as a table. YMMV, but it worked for me.

2) Your time constraints need to be reviewed and your shop space planned carefully to accommodate. If you have to haul equipment from the basement into work space to get working, you will be less inclined to do it. My current 2 garage shop requires a barely tolerable 5min to move cars, and roll some tools from the adjacent 1 car garage. It use to take over 15minutes in setup and drove me crazy. The longer it takes you to get your shop operational the less work you will get done, and the less often you want deal with the hassle. As someone else said, you also have consider space for unfinished projects, and can you leave the dust mess till next session, or are you required to also clean up and put things away when you break till later? My guess is your answers to the setup/cleanup dictate you will simply need to find rust CONTROL solutions and buy what ever tools you can afford that fit into your garage that produce the pieces you want to make.

Best of luck.
 
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