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How to pull an existing cabinet into square?

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3K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  jbertelson 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Okay dumb question. I had built a shop cabinet 2 years ago that was square when I built it, but due to some drawer problems I am noticing the cabinet now is anything BUT square. Construction is glued and screwed rabbet and dado construction with a back panel effectively about 2/3 of the way back set into a dado and screwed into place…

Is there any trick to bringing this thing back into square and keep it from going out of square again..

The back part of this cabinet is an empty area just to run dust collection ducting, so I can do whatever I need to back there…
 
#3 ·
If you can get a pipe clamp to pull across the diagonal and get it square again, then glue in plywood triangles to be "corner blocks" that will lock the corner at 90 degrees, and take off the clamp.
 
#4 ·
You said it was square to begin with. I'm guessing if it wasn't wracked by any forces that humidity and dryness have cause readjustment? Maybe you are more precise now than before?

Two good Ideas here. Taking all the drawers and backing off will make pulling it back into square easier. Is it that noticeable?

If it is a moisture issue you can add moisture to both sides before re alignment.
 
#5 ·
Hmmmm. Pipe clamps. Hadna thunka that…

Yeah, I can take the screws on the mid panel loose. But the panel is set in a dado and glued as well. Hopefully with slow careful pressure it will go…

The same square that verified it when built checked it last night. It is nasty out of square, and I suspect humidity has a LOT to do with it. I also suspect corner blocks would go a long way to keeping it square… Good idea!
 
#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think you need to determine what part/end of the cabinet moved in order to correct it properly.
If you had it square and now it's not, part of the cabinet shifted somehow. Maybe it came off the wall a little on 1 side? Was it shimmed off the floor and maybe dropped a little? Just saying I would try to find what moved and put it back. fixing one wrong by changing a right might just compound your problem, but then, I could be reading to much into it.
 
#8 ·
The cabinet is not wall mounted, but free standing on the floor, shimmed / blocked to level. If what is supporting it moved, my foundation moved. Which considering drought, then wet, I wouldn't be shocked…
 
#12 ·
Glue joints will have to be broken in order to restore it to square. All of the ratchet straps and pipe clamps in your county and glue blocks the size of a shoebox will just build in more stress.

Kindly,

Lee
 
#13 ·
Take it apart and rebuild it…..........I think that is what Lee is saying, and I agree. Gotta break the glue joints anyway, to do it right, pull it apart and build it like you were doing it the first time. You will find the root cause while you are at it.
 
#14 ·
Put the square in the back, and see if that's still square.bbefore u go beaking glue joints. If it was square when constucted, and installed, chances are the squareness persistts at the back.

Check the squareness at the back to be sure, and then

Put the square in the front, and if it's out of square, it's a simple torsional issue, drive some shims under the low side, and square up the front.

OTOH, If yer on a slab floor, maybe it's just working with the winter weather. The outside edge of my deck rises up about 3" over the winter. Desolate being on piers set well below the frost line. If it was square when it went in, if it's out of sqare now, it ain't likely due to cabinet boxes….

Eric
 
#15 ·
Update…

I went out last night, and scooted the cabinet out away from the wall about 1" (I need the clearance for when the freezer comes in, and took a look at things again… I actually appear to have 2 issues going on here.

#1. The cabinet racks in and out of square on the corners as it is moved over the uneven floor. This, as well as taking screws out and being able to easily pull the joint apart tells me the glue joints have completely failed. I am thinking the plywood effectively drank up the glue leaving the joint dry… Need to take it apart, and re-glue the entire assembly…

#2. The side panel on the left appears to bow out about 1/16" over its span top to bottom. Not a huge deal, but it can be over time. The cabinet was designed and built frameless, I am not re thinking that approach. Not an entire frame per se, but a simple cross bar just under the drawers to keep the side panel sucked in…

When I go to redo the cabinet, I am going to cut 1.5" off of the total height so that I can add 3/4" glue blocks to the bottom, and install levelers at all corner points, this way I should in theory end up with a completely square, and level miter saw station in the end.

At this point, I have it set, and shimmed square, although not completely level. It is good enough for now. I have to move on to other more pressing projects. I will either fix this one, or scrap it, and start over with a new bench keeping the basic design but adding some lessons learned modifications. I am leaning toward that complete rebuild if LOML will put up with it…
 
#16 ·
I have found over time that essentially all shop items that I build need to be on levelers or wheels. My old main 44 year old bench is not on levelers or wheels, but that is the only wood on concrete structure I have. All others are on some sort of levelers….....as a minimum, carriage bolts. The other exception, which doesn't count since I didn't build it, is the repurposed scroll saw stand that holds my drill press.

In the last few years I am taking an additional step. I am using torsion boxes liberally in most items. My multipurpose bench has the two end piers built as torsion boxes, but the base isn't. If I were to build it now, I would make the base a torsion box as well…...all I would need to do is put plywood on the bottom, since the bracing is already there. But it is built so heavily, that it doesn't need it. The torsion boxes actually allow your structure to be lighter.

The torsion boxes allow you to place solid corner pieces inside the torsion box to hold wheels or levelers. My cutoff cart is a scrap wood torsion box with wheels, with some modular compartments on top that can be picked up and carried to the work place. The outfeed table I am building as part of the dust control for my TS, will have a torsion box on the top and the bottom. At La Conner, I have a bench composed of two torsion boxes that are placed on pedestals. The pedestals do not incorporate torsion boxes because they have to nest for storage. But they are quite strong, and will have levelers as well. The stationary bench in La Conner is a cheap solid core door that was purchased for a quick and dirty work surface to help build the rest of the shop. It has a plywood top cover, and the door with its cover will become the top of a torsion box. Currently it sits on saw horses, but I will build pedestals that have a torsion box on the bottom, and the top will be kind of built into the top torsion box.

If you are going to beef up those cabinets, think about the height carefully. You might be better off with the whole thing higher, and the top and bottom could be built into shallow torsion boxes, the bottom incorporating solid corner pieces for wheels or levelers….....

If your shop stuff is designed to all the same height, make them all taller and stronger, and in the process make it easier on your back…........

You can use some scrap and cheap stuff to make the torsion boxes, just use a lot of glue and a nail gun…..
 
#17 ·
The height is actually set intentionally such that the deck is at the same height, -1/8" from my table saw, or the same height of my workbench… That way, in a pinch, I can take the miter saw off the bench, and still not interfere with long cutoffs.
 
#19 ·
Usally when glued together square things stay square ,is this cabinet is made out of solid wood ? if that's the case perhaps your dealing with wood movement.The fact that you say it's moving in and out of square makes me think it's wood movement ,do you have a glued cross grain situation in you cabinet construction? The refrigerator gives off heat and moisture. If it's solid wood did you finish both sides of your wood.if not I would ad finish to the unfinished side.
 
#20 ·
Sorry a1Jim, I should mention, it goes square, comes out as I move it over the floor. It has gotten VERY obvious that it is a glue joint failure issue. I know what I need to do that this point, just need to do it…

Jim Bertelson, sorry if any of it looks short. I am 6' tall and I designed everything so that the table / working height is matching the Ryobi BT3100 table height of 38.5", which is a very comfortable working height for me. No stooping at all which is a MUCH bigger problem than reaching or lifting. Simply put, stooping down, to say get something out of the bottom shelf, is NOT an easy task for me at this point. I suspect and the doc confirms this for now, that much of my back issue would be relieved if I lost a mess of my weight. I gained a LOT of weight when she had me on Crestor, so I dropped that, and have been losing weight steadily since. I am down 20lbs since July last year, but I need to pick up the pace. I have a LONG way to go and I want to be young enough to enjoy having the weight off my back… I am taking part in a weight loss challenge on another forum. It is helping me keep accountable.
 
#21 ·
From the description of your build, there seems no way this could have gone out of square, regardless of the flooring or anything else.

Your later indication the glue joints failed explains the why of it. Did you use frozen or outdated glue? If so, lesson learned. If, on the other hand, it was a matter of the material absorbing much of the glue, then it seems you were being stingy to your own detriment. Said another way, there is a reason most of us are often worrying about glue squeeze out and the affect it has on our final finish (presuming we are using other than paint).

If you put this back together the way you described, you should [almost] be able to tip it forty-five degrees and keep it there without it going out of square.

Meanwhile, it's back to diagonal pipe clamps and diagonal measurements, while the glue sets.
 
#22 ·
I am not 100% certain, but there is some possibility the glue had gotten frozen. I am figuring on getting some fresh glue, and starting over. Every glue joint I have done on this thing that I have unscrewed simply slides apart easily…

My method for glue in these joints has been to brush it on until there is an even, thin coat solidly covering all mating surfaces, then bring them together, if using screws as well then run the screws, or brads or whatever in, then pull it together with the clamps, double and triple check for square, and let it set for at least 24 hours.

The I can only see 2 potential reasons for this happening.

#1. The glue itself failed due to environmental damage. It is possible that the glue got frozen etc… and somehow lost its effectiveness. I am not saying it did or didn't happen I honestly don't know.

#2. I am a complete idiot and thought I had glued it up when I actually just did the dry fit and ran screws in. Again I am not claiming I didn't skip a step… But I do recall spreading glue in these joints. However I usually see SOME squeeze out, and I have none visible… So it IS possible… Brain farts happen especially when you are doing too much at once.

The glue I used however is from a gallon of Titebond II that I got at Woodcraft a few years ago. I heat my garage to keep it above freezing to protect my pipes and reverse osmosis system. I don't recall it ever being below 40 deg F in there… HOWEVER, other glue joints from this bottle of glue are having some separation. My workbench top plywood lamination is coming unglued on the vise end, as is the mount block glue up for my MLCS Pins & Tails dovetail templates… So the glue is HIGHLY suspect to me. The remainder of the bottle (I have a little less than a pint left) is separating in the bottle and is heading for the trash can…

I have used Titebond II in the past with great success, so I figure either it got frozen before I bought it, I never noticed the freeze when I had it, or I somehow got a bottle from a bad batch…

I am however NOT going to haul my happy tail back to Woodcraft for more Titebond II. My local Home Depot finally started carrying both Titebond II and III…
 
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