LumberJocks Woodworking Forum banner

Wall hanging scotch cabinet - Introduction and design critique request

3K views 38 replies 8 participants last post by  JeremyMorgan 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Good evening. After lurking for quite some time I am finally posting. I am engineer by trade with a background in design and have always enjoyed building things. After moving to CO a few years back and buying a turn of the century (1901) victorian I have been building my skills and shop up to the point that I ave begun to tackle some more furniture oriented projects. If anyone is interested I have been posting pictures of the various projects about the house on a blogspot page (link is in my signature).

After recently completing a built in window seat project I have been thinking about what to do next and decided that a small wall hanging cabinet for a few bottles of my finest scotch would be a great excuse to delve into the world of Greene and Greene design which I have become rather fascinated with.

Attached (hopefully) is an image from a quick model I threw together over lunch today of a design concept that I have in mind. I would appreciate any feedback on the design as well as any suggestions on completing the project (joinery in particular).

Here is some basic info on the design.
-Mahogany Case and and door frames (I just scored some very nice genuine mahogany for 6$ lbf)
-The door panels and back will be spalted maple (either veneered panels left over from the window seat of solid wood, The board I have is just a bit too narrow though)
-The interior dimensions are 20 in x 16in wide with one shelf near the bottom. Glasses will sit under the shelf, bottles on it.







Thanks in advance for your feedback and comments.
 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
Jeremy, that looks like it would turn out to be a fine cabinet. I like the idea of the spalted maple panels, I think it would be a good match for the mahogany. If your board for them is a bit too narrow, would you have the capability to book match them? Each side could be book matched which could add a nice touch.

Good Luck and be sure to post pics when you're done.
 
#3 ·
That's a good idea. The two sides of the board are very different but the two faces from the cut should match pretty well. I might have to try that out. I'll post a picture if I am successful in resawing it, always an adventure without a bandsaw.
 
#4 ·
Seems well and good for function and use of materials.

I find the curves in the door frames inconsistent with the through box joints at the corners and the through tenons for the fixed shelf. The latter are craftsman-era and the curves seem to be Early American.

I don't recall ever seeing through tenons from something one can't see. Example: through tenons on a trestle table stretcher. The protruding end of the tenon lets the mind fill in some information about the stretcher.

The tenons sticking out the side of this cabinet are confusing to me.

These comments are meant to be helpful and constructive and are kindly offered.

Lee
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the responses.

The thru tenon for the shelf is something that I think isn't going to make the final cut. I liked the idea of it but the comment about visible joinery for parts you can't see makes sense. Would you guys suggest just going with a stopped dado for the shelf?

My main problem with the first door design is that I feel that the outer stiles are too thick. I am also concerned that unless I use very small pulls the two narrow center stiles might looked discontinuous. I may need to just make the cabinet a bit wider so that the proportions for the stiles work better. I like like the way the doors came out, but see your point about them not really working with the case.

What would you guys think about going with straight outer stiles and having the center stiles expansed in the center with more of a tsuba like design? I think I might try making the cloud lift pattern on the rails a bit more abrupt, smaller radius transitions to keep it from looking so much like a large curve.

I might not be explaining that very well, I don't have a seat of the program used for this model here at home but I might use sketchup for a few quick door ideas, that seems to be what needs the most work.

Thanks again for the critiques and suggestions. Lee, I really appreciate someone who is able to explain what they don't think works with a design.

Cheers,
 
#7 ·
I usually make the stiles the same width, not that there is any reason than that is just what I have done. One thing may be to think about the cloud lift getting larger in the middle, rather than smaller, if that makes sense? That way the cloud raises into the panel vs recedes from it. If you were to have the cloud lift getting larger on the rails, and equal sized stiles, maybe your panel dimensions would then fit. Seems like you are well on your way to a nice design.
 
#8 ·
Rectangle Door Parallel Font Electric blue


Here is another version of the doors. I thickened the top rail so that the thinner part matched the width of the stiles. I think only having the cloud lift at the top, instead of mirrored top and bottom works a bit better.
 

Attachments

#9 ·
Jeremy,

Are you attempting to make a piece that is, for lack of a better term, "correct"? I.e. follows the details closely enough to perhaps mimic a piece that might have come out of the Hall bros. shop? Or design something that just takes influence from G&G designs?

My comments are geared toward the first interpretation rather than the second, so I apologize in advance if that's not your intention.

I would suggest that your cloud lifts are somewhat out proportion - they lift too much. The double lift seems too much for the scale of the door - both the inner stiles and top rails. The proportion of the lift on the inner stiles of the third pic of your original post seems about right.

You can find the cloud lift going both ways on G&G furniture, although I'd hazard a guess that the lift opens up more often than down at the top of an element.

Do you have David Mathias' book? If so, there is a picture of a small curio cabinet on page 23 that might be a good reference for you.

The cabinet has proportionally thinner stiles and top rail, with a thicker bottom rail. This rail is sized to cover a set of drawers in the cabinet. The cloud lift opens up on the top rail, and there is a double lift on the bottom rail that also opens up.

For the finger joints, you could go protruding, as you've drawn them, or you could go flush. In either case, the ends of the fingers are rounded over.

This curio cabinet uses protruding fingers on the top, but a flat bottom that extends a bit past the edge of the carcase, like something you'd see in a Krenov piece.

Also, through tenons are something that isn't common in G&G furniture. Tenons were pinned, though, and the pins capped with square pillowed plugs. Mathias' book shows only one example of a through tenon, and that was on a lower stretcher of a table. Shelves in carcases were just dadoed in.

A couple things to consider:
- Maybe use brackets rather than cloud lifts on the inside of the door frame. Top of the frame only. Given the scale of the doors, probably just a single bracket, rather than a double (Blacker-style) bracket.
- If you remove the through tenons for the interior shelf, maybe add some decorative raised inlay to the sides of the cabinet.
- Consider what you want to do for glass. G&G used a lot of art glass for the visual effect, and while it was by no means ubiquitous in glass-doored cabinets, it might be a nice touch to your piece. Though not cheap :)

Darrell Peart's book is also quite useful as both a reference on styles and variations, but also construction details.
 
#10 ·
Mark, thanks. I have Darrell Peart's book on order as well as one from Lang. I'm not sure I quite follow your suggestions on the bracket? Could you point me to a picture that would show a similar detail?

My intentions are more to explore some of the design elements from G&G pieces rather to try and make something that might be seen as correct. I do appreciate feedback that is more in line with what would be appropriate on a true G&G style piece as the style intrigues me.

Here are a few more quick concepts, right now I think the first one is my leading contender. The wide portion of the center stiles would have the handles mounted, as this will be mounted on a wall I think it will make sense to have the handles biased toward the bottom.

Sleeve Rectangle Parallel Electric blue Door


Rectangle Electric blue Door Parallel Transparency


Also took a break from working on a storm window project to re-saw the board I am thinking about using for the panels. Here are the two pieces in the orientation that I think I will use them.

Wood Rectangle Floor Flooring Hardwood
 

Attachments

#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
Well that last picture points my eyes toward no details on the stiles and rails. That's just to beautiful, in an exquisitely simple way, to introduce movement in the frame. Those panels look Krenovian.

Let the panels be the detail, that's my thought.

Do another cabinet with the cloud lifts! I like both refinements above the above photograph.

Excellent discussion, and thank you, Jeremy, for being open to other ideas and opinions and interpretations.

Kindly,

Lee
 
#12 ·
I'm with Lee on that - that piece of wood looks like it wants to be the feature, and an attempt to add adornment via styling would detract. Maybe even use it without rails/stiles.

I like pic #1 - the proportions look "right" to me. But depending on the style of the pull, pic #2 might work better.

As far as brackets - Chapter 9 in Peart's book is all about the style of double brackets found in the Blacker house. He shows how to construct a double bracket, but given the scale of the each door, I'd think a single bracket would look better. Peart gives templates for brackets, but the curves and proportions look a bit odd to me - refer to the picture of the chair on page 43 or the xray pic on page 51 and compare that to his templates to see what I'm talking about…

G&G used a couple of different styles of single brackets. Check out the Tichenor chair on p. 17 and compare that to the Robinson chair on p. 66.

Oh - the curio cabinet I mentioned is also pictured in Peart's book on page 61.
 
#13 ·
I think you guys are right about those panels. They are not large enough to use as slab doors but I think they will look great in a simple frame door. I do plan to keep the plugs on the corners. Now I am struggling with the orientation of the those panels. My initial thought is to keep the larger blue streak to the outside, but they might look a bit better inverted from the way they are shown in that photo.

Mark, thanks for the references. I can't wait until that book comes in.
 
#14 ·
Here is an image of the new, simplified, design showing the spalted maple panels.

Brown Rectangle Wood Wood stain Hardwood


I like it, and I won't have to fool around with any templates for this project. Now I just need to sort out the joinery design and finish off the couple projects that are ahead of this in the que.. I am getting sick of building storm windows but I just can't bring myself to buy the damn things.

I am thinking a pegged bridle joint for the door frames. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
 

Attachments

#17 ·
Loren, can you point me to a picture of a dovetail slip joint?

Your comment about not being able to see the bridle joint with the doors being inset got me thinking about the mounting of the doors. I might see what it would look like with the doors overlapping the sides of the case which would allow the bridle joints to be exposed.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Finally finished up the projects ahead of this one and am beginning to make some test pieces for the joinery. I am also working on figuring out the final details for the cabinet. Below is an image with the door rails/stiles corrected. I plan to cut all 4 stiles from a single piece and both pairs of rails as well.



I am pretty happy with the two different sized plugs on the doors. I don't think that I like the way the 3/8" plugs look on the case. My plan has been to add screws to at least a few of the fingers and then square up the counter bore for the plugs. It looks like I would have to drop to a #3 screw to get a counter-bore to be 1/4". At that size I doubt the screws will add much strength. I could skip the screws and just have the plugs be decorative or perhaps go to a 2/1 finger layout instead of the 3/2.



I have also been experimenting with some finishing options and am leaning toward danish oil sealed with shellac. The DO seems to give the wood a bit more depth and I think that the Shellac will be more than adequate protection for a wall hanging cabinet. I considered experimenting with dyes to try and get more of a classis Greene& Greene color but I think the lighter color will actually work better where this cabinet will go and I will save my experimentation for a project that doesn't have two very different woods.



Far left is with the DO, Middle has an initial coat of amber shellac (too yellow) and the right is just plain shellac.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I am excited to get this project underway.
 
#19 ·
Hey, I was wondering when you were going to pick up this project again.

With the 3×2 finger layout, you will have plenty of glue surface to keep the carcase together, without using screws. Less glue surface on a 2/1 layout, so less strong. A well-fitted back will provide the support necessary to resist racking forces, so the only thing the fingers need to do is resist pulling out. You could pin with small dowels under the ebony plugs if you are really concerned about that.

if you really want screws, a #6 will fit under a 5/16" plug, which is what I did to secure the handle on the drawer front on this table:
Furniture Table Wood Rectangle Wood stain


The fingers at the drawers sides are neither screwed nor pinned. The (purely decorative) plugs on the drawer fingers are 1/4". There are also non-pinned flush plugs on the sides of the fingers, which can't be seen in this photo. The plugs at the apron rail and brackets are 3/16".

I like the proportions on your piece, particularly with the middle split stile. There'd be too much stile if you'd gone for making the middle stiles the same width as the outer stiles.

I'm less enamoured with the middle stiles not going all the way to the bottom. Maybe just because its very unusual to see a frame designed that way. I'm assuming that you modelled it the more traditional way and decided you like this better?

It is very hard to tell the a color difference between the three areas in the pic. If you are looking to darken it up slightly, maybe try a garnet shellac, or tung oil under shellac.

How are you planning on finishing the spalted maple? Its more important the the mahogany work with the maple, rather than going for a specific color tone of the mahogany.

On a tangent, have you tried the Perspective camera view in Sketchup? It make the visuals look much more natural than the Parallel Projection view…
 

Attachments

#20 ·
Mark, Thanks for the great feedback. That is good to know about the #6 screws. I think if I go with the 3×2 finger layout I will just do decorative plugs. I am not sure which finger style I like better. I am almost leaning toward the 2×1 layout as I think the sizing works better? Less plugs to make too. I plan on using some 1/4" spalted maple plywood for the back so I will be able to glue it all the way around, giving the case quite a bit more support.

One of my earlier iterations had the center stiles going full height. I like the way that the inset center stile almost gives the appearance of the doors being one, larger door. I considered just making a single door but the two smaller doors works better for the location that the cabinet will be mounted.

Speaking of mounting I am thinking that I will just space the back in a 1/2-3/4" and use a french cleat, seems like the easiest way to get a good sturdy mount without screwing through the cabinet.

The finish on the maple will be just DO and blonde shellac. I think I would rather error on the side of lighter than darker with the mahogany, particularly since I expect it to darken over time. I was impressed by how noticeable a change I got in just a few days in a sunny window.

I haven't played around with Sketch-up too much. This model was done in Solidworks which I use at work. I have played around with sketchup a bit but it takes me easily twice as long to model anything.
 
#21 ·
Those images look so much like something Sketchup outputs, I was convinced it was Sketchup. Solidworks is awesome, though. You could analyze the stresses on the finger joints from a fully stocked cabinet and determine if you need screws, pins or no reinforcement. :)

For the finger joints, I kind of prefer the look of the 2/1 layout, with the middle finger being slightly wider than the other 2. Less busy.

If you think that needs reinforcement, a 1/4" pin through the 2 outside fingers using something strong would probably be sufficient. The pin wouldn't have to be wood - aluminum or brass would work. But realistically, any wood stronger than mahogany will do. If there's enough shear force to break a couple of 1/4" oak pins, there's going to be failure in the mahogany also.

Where are you obtaining spalted maple plywood? I want to get me some of that! If you glue that all around in a rabbet in the back, you'll have a very solid carcase, no finger joint reinforcement needed.

A french cleat works well, probably your best choice for a strong yet invisible mount as long as the extra depth needed doesn't mess up your design. There are commercial hardware bits available that do the same thing but in a much thinner profile if the depth is a concern.

To get the #6 screws to fit under a 5/16" plug, I did not use a standard counterbore drill setup, as a #6 counterbore leaves a hole slightly too large. Instead, I ground the tip of a 5/16" twist drill bit to match the angle of the bottom of a screw and used that to make the counterbore, drilling the pilot hole for the screw first. In hindsight, a panhead #6 with a counterbore via a brad point might have been easier and just as effective.

There were 72 plugs on that table I did. Once I got into a rhythm, it took "only" 20 minutes per plug. That was starting with drilling the hole and finishing with gluing in the square plug. I can understand not wanting to do any more than necessary…
 
#22 ·
I think I am going to go ahead with with 3 finger design with 3/8" plugs on the fingers and door corners, 1/4" plugs on the rest of the door. After I glue up the case Ill decide if it needs reinforcement, but I suspect that I am overly concerned…precious cargo and all. It did cross my mind to try and run an FEA analysis on the joint (I'm not sure being an engineer is beneficial to my woodworking)...but decided that it would take more time than just adding the pins if I were that worried about it.

Do you have any suggestions on cutting the square holes? I have looked at the Lee Valley square hole punches and thought about just picking up some cheap mortising machine chisels.

I think the door hardware is my last piece of the puzzle. Knife hinges would be nice but I think I might go with something a bit easier to install, and cheaper to buy.

The spalted maple plywood (Veneered MDF panels really for the 1/4" size) is from a hardwood dealer here in denver.



I have some left over from a built in window seat project. It was great for the door panels as it is a true 1/4" so I was able to use standard cope/stick bits. I was also able to get knotty alder 3/4" combo core for the cases, really nice stuff to work with as far as plywood goes.
 
#23 ·
Square holes: the LV square hole punches would work well. You can modify a mortising machine chisel to do the same thing. I used the bench and mortise chisels I already had. The key to that is laying out the squares accurately, and then drilling a 1/32" undersize hole dead center. Squaring the hole with hand tools is pretty easy as you're only going in about 1/4" - no mallet needed, just hand pressure.

Hinges:
According to David Mathias, G&G used stacked butt hinges quite often, in an arrangement almost like a piano hinge. He also noted that they used piano hinges only on pianos. See page 5 in http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/0811GnGSlides.pdf
 
#24 ·
I picked up several mortising chisels yesterday from Rockler, they actually sell just the chisel w/o the bit and a cheap wooden handle to turn then into a hand tool. Tried them out on my test board and cut up the Ebony. First try came out pretty decent. I got a little tear out from the twist drills I used. I think I might try scoring the layout lines before I drill to prevent that.



Drew up a quick plan to work from in the shop. I am thinking about possibly inlaying some Ebony in place of actual pulls. I plan to use a magnetic catch that when the doors are pushed in a little will spring out. This will allow me to cut a small recess on the back edge of the inner stiles.

 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top