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Spend my $1,000

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3K views 54 replies 30 participants last post by  knotscott 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm an old rookie. I have no major power tools. Been reading on this site for a month or so. Looking for a TS first. Thinking rigid 4512, that gets about 500. Now what? Band saw, surfacer,router table. Oh, I forgot I do have a drill press. Want to do wood projects, outdoor furniture, shop benches, way later maybe fine stuff!
 
#27 ·
I would not buy that Rigid, it looks like a table saw but it's really an upside down circular saw; those things are made for carpentry not woodworking. If $500 is your saw budget you'd be far better off spending it on a band saw.

couldn't disagree with this statement more. the 4512, as long as it isn't one with the misaligned arbor issue, set up properly with the right blade for the intended operation, is more than capable of woodworking.
 
#28 ·
I understand the Rigid does have it's fans but nevertheless it's a circular saw motor (and not a particularly powerful one -13 amp) in a saw known to have alignment issues and a mediocre fence designed for carpentry work and not precision woodworking. Universal motors are much louder and have a shorter lifespan. It's not a bad saw for what it is but any new saw in that price range is going to be have serious trade offs. I once read about a Mexican who built beautiful furniture using a saw built from pallets and a washing machine motor but who wants to do that? You can spend $500 on a saw that you'll want to upgrade in a few years or spend the same on a band saw that will last for life. I know the temptation to buy a cheap saw, like many others I went through it but decided to save money for another year and buy something that has served me well for over a decade and will for a long time to come.
 
#30 ·
#31 ·
You don't mention the amount of shop/storage space available
If space is an issue.

Here's a small phrase for you.

"Used Shopsmith (510 or 520) on craigslist."
Search "shopsmith" or "Shop Smith"" on your local craiglist.

Depending on what's availaable in your area, you could end up with the following

As a minimum
Decent 10" Table Saw
Good Lathe
Good drill press
Horizontal boring system
12" disc sander with adjustable table and movable quill.
All this fits in a 2 ft x 6 ft space.

Special Purpose Tools (SPTs) Also available (sometimes included with used systems, especially bandsaws and jointers)
11" Bandsaw with 6" resaw capacity
Planer
4" Jointer
Belt sander
strip sander
scroll saw
strip sander

all variable speed (Except the jointer/planer)

Here's an example http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/tls/3524874714.html This is a Shopsmith 510 with a bandsaw
There are others as well.

You'll hear complaints about Shopsmith (Most have never used one). Shopsmith is at least as good as mid grade statioary tools. True the table saw can't be compared to a Unisaw or other high end cabinet saw, but it can definitely hang with any contractor saw out there once setup and aligned properly.
check out some of the work done by Gene Howe, 8Iowa, or shipwright here on LJ

Shopsmith's are still fully supported by the manufacturer. I can still get parts and upgrades for my 1955 model from the manufacturer. (How many other tools can boast that?)
 
#32 · (Edited by Moderator)
With a good table saw, you can make a lot of stuff to take up your spare time! With some plywood and scrap lumber, you can make a table saw sled to aid in cross cutting boards. You would like it.

A router, jig saw and orbital sander will allow you to cut curvy stuff up to about an inch thick. Sand it with the orbital sander and route the edge with the router.

A lot of projects can be built with just those few tools.

A circular saw would be great for cutting plywood sheets into smaller, more manageable size. A simple guide helps make accurate rips or cross cuts.

The internet is packed with a lot of information and YouTube is great for watching how others do it.
Good luck.
Mike
Edit: Don't forget to buy a good blade= for the table saw. I am using an Irwin Marples blade and it makes smooth rips and cross cuts. Same for the circular saw. I have a Freud Diablo thin kerf blade and it works great.
 
#33 ·
perhaps prior to expressing opinions about tools, it might be a good idea to get the facts straight first.

I stand corrected on the induction motor point. 13 amp induction so that's about 3/4 HP. However my other points were spot on. It's fair for him to know that there are serious trade-offs with the Rigid saw.
 
#34 ·
Quite the rookie myself. So far, though, I've only had to buy one saw blade, a few brass brushes, a couple of wire wheels, some evapo-rust, and a whole bunch of WD-40. I've gone sweat-equity the whole way, partly out of personal inclination, partly due to being broke. $1000's a fortune! You can do SO MUCH with that!

I'm not even being sarcastic. Well… maybe only a little.

My best advice, one rookie (on a tight budget) to another? Go slow. Do your due diligence. Research. And ask for advice whenever you can, as much as you can, because ten minutes with someone who knows what they're doing will save you a whole night of research. But then research that. Because there's another expert who has an entirely different technique for doing the same thing, and that one might work better for you. In the end, really understanding what you're doing is going to carry you a lot further than any tool, or any shop's worth of tools, for that matter.

So I can't really tell you what to spend your money on, but I can share a few of my thoughts and experiences in equipping my shop on a very small budget. First off: restoring old beat-up tools is a freakin' hassle, takes forever, you have to do more reading than you ever imagined… but when you're done, jeez, you feel like a little machine god, and most importantly, you understand the thing through and through. You know those stories, about the old-timer who could fix anything with duct-tape, spit, and curses? It's because he understands what he's working on. And it's not just fixing: if all you ever do with tool is what it says on the box, you're missing out on the possibilities and you're missing out on getting the absolute most out of the machine.

Second, if you're anything like me, your imagination can get away from you, and you find yourself wanting to buy tools that you don't even know how to use, or what they're for… keep your feet on the ground, and concentrate on what's in front of you. Know where you're at.

Third: always read the safety instructions. Look up any unfamiliar words. Read them again. Chant them, under your breath, as you use your new TS/BS/RAS.

If for now you're just interested in outdoor furniture and shop benches for now, you might want to consider a radial arm saw. They can be had cheap as hell (I see them for $50 on Craigslist all the time) and they can do A LOT. They're tricky machines, though. Tricky, in my opinion, because modern consumers don't want to have to learn, they just want to "plug and play." If you're willing to learn, though, you can achieve the functionality of a whole host of machines for $50 bucks, and some sweat equity. And you'll learn a heck of a lot about machines working on one of those things. But my point here is not to recommend the RAS, so much as to point out that there's a lot of ways to skin a cat, when it comes to making things out of wood, so don't get locked in to one equipment route or another.

People built stuff out of wood for a long, long time without a table saw. Heck, they used to do it with sharp rocks.
 
#37 ·
Rick said,"I stand corrected on the induction motor point. 13 amp induction so that's about 3/4 HP."

Sorry, better do a little more reading. 13 amps @ 120volts is very close to 1 3/4 hp on an induction motor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of these saws, I have the original Craftsman version, Model 21833, complete with the alignment issue. BUT, other than the fact that I don't think these saws will last forever like a big PM or Uni, they absolutely are real saws. 265 lbs, cast iron table, and nice smooth operation, and I think a pretty good fence. I don't have any problem with the table, the fence. the motor, the riving knife, the dust collection or the casters. I think it's the most bang for the buck you can get for under $500 in a new saw. But, you can get way more value in the used market.

I have made a couple of furniture pieces and several shop projects like a big heavy wotkbench, a lathe bench, some cabinets. The saw is fine as long as I allow for the alignment issue.
 
#38 · (Edited by Moderator)
Sorry, I don't believe the 1 3/4 HP claim. Not even close.

edit: I think you better do a little more reading, it's not 1 3/4 HP and I can find nothing official that claims anything other than 13 amps. If it were 1 3/4 HP Rigid would be marketing the hell out of that but you have to know there is a reason they claim amps and not HP.
 
#39 ·
This is right out of the online specs for the Craftsman 21833, same as the Ridgid 4512.

•Kit Includes: 10 in. blade, blade guard, dust chute, extension rails, miter gauge, rip fence and anti-kickback pawl
•Powered by a potent 1-3/4 HP, 3450 RPM motor
The Craftsman Professional Saw features a heavy-duty, cast-iron table with stamp steel extension and sturdy stamp steel stand
•Dual locking fence adjusts easily for solid cuts
•Blade guard system with anti-kickback pawl is designed with a quick release mechanism for easy removal and replacement
•Riving knife system used on this saw can be set at three different positions for versatility
•Blade tilts to the left from 0 to 45 degrees to permit cutting long bevel rips on wide boards
•Blade supported by a cast iron trunnion system for accuracy and consistent cutting performance
•Heavy-duty dual castor system is easily set with the front and rear foot pedals
•The saw includes storage for all of the accessories
•10 degree left tilt arbor gives greater flexibility when cutting bevels and miters
•T-square fence with front and rear lock keeps cuts even
•Weight: 265 lbs.

Of course, advertizied claims for horsepower mean virtually nothing when referring to universal motors, but induction motors is a whole different story.

Besides, why do you think it's less than claimed? Did you ever use one.?

I use mine all the time. I think mine has way more than 2 horsepower.
Now, because I said that does that make it true?

Bottom line, I know it has an induction motor because I am an engineer and I know about such things.
I also know it will pull in excess of 15 amps in a heavy load situation, like ripping 8/4 oak, because I have checked it with a meter..
 
#40 ·
After the table saw, the only right tool is whatever is required for the project you want to make NOW. Also, every major tool in my shop with the exception of my table saw was purchased on craigslist. You can get some really amazing deals. Expect to pay half of retail for tools in really good (nearly new) condition. Many of mine were bought at 1/4 - 1/3 retail. Your $1000 can go quite a ways if you're patient.
 
#42 ·
It's really pretty simple.
Look it up if you want to.

I should point out here that the Craftsman saw's motor is rated at 15 amps while the Ridgid's motor is rated at 13 amps. This has been pointed out in reviews here on LJ many times.

Rick, I don't know where you got the term "maximum developed" from. I checked a couple of links to the Ridgid web site and I don't find that term used except when they are talking about their shop vacuums. Maybe you are thinking about their job site saw which does have a universal motor.

The facts:
Watts = volts x amps.
So, 15 amps x 120 volts = 1800 watts
One horsepower = 746 watts
So, 1800 watts / 746 = 2.41 HP

Now those numbers are actual conversions right out of the text book.
In the real world, we must deal with a little thing called efficiency.
According to NEMA (the National Electric Manufacurer's Association) the minimum electrical efficiency for induction motors in the 1 to 4 hp range is 78%.

So, the 2.41 hp x .78 = 1.87 hp.
The numbers for the Ridgid would be 2.09 hp max and 1.63 hp at 78%.

I try to be helpful whenenever I can, even to folks who don't appreciate it.
This is all I am going to say about this point because we have gotten entirely off the topic of the OP.
 
#45 ·
this was fairly enlightening:

http://www.mechreps.com/PDF/MRI_Formulas_Conversions.pdf

the formula for converting amps to hp is in there (hp = (V x A x Efficiency x Power factor)/746). there's also a chart of hp, voltages and motor full load amp ratings. single phase 230v , 6.9 amps is 3/4hp. i trust this number since my former unisaw's motor was 16A @ 220v and 3 hp, almost exactly what's shown in the same chart for 3 hp.
 
#47 ·
Terrific advice about good tools, but I forgot, were we supposed to actually make something? I've just been having a ball buying used tools from CL and fixing them up.

Seriously, buying used from CL saves a ton of money, especially if you can tune up small problems yourself.
Good luck.
 
#48 · (Edited by Moderator)
"I would not buy that Rigid, it looks like a table saw but it's really an upside down circular saw; those things are made for carpentry not woodworking."

Come on now…do you have the wrong saw in mind? It's no Unisaw, but that's a lot of saw for the money, as new saws go….


Here's a saw that looks like a circular saw upside down in a cabinet….I'm not seeing the similarities:
 
#49 ·
Wow, all that schooling have me a headache! Personally for me if it weren't for my planner and jointer I couldn't afford to build any projects, being able to buy wood in the rough is defiantly cheaper ,. Having a nice powermatic table saw or a unisaw is nice buy their are plenty of guys on here that make beautiful project with cheaper contractor saws, I would think about what your wanting to build then think of what you might need for that project
 
#50 ·
Well I guess the guy with the saw is not going to call me back! I've sent this dude emails and text wanting a time and directions for two days. Now it's been four days and no reply. I can't figure this out. Day one I told him I wanted it. Well enough, time to move on. Back to looking for a bargain. Tempted to just go to HD and get it!!!
 
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