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Please save me from drinking the SawStop Kool-Aid

9K views 123 replies 63 participants last post by  OggieOglethorpe 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
So, I've received the go-ahead from my wife to buy a TS.

I've never owned anything but a bench top TS, and I know that a new bench top TS won't cut it for making cabinets and furniture. I want to build a shop that is free of fine dust. I don't want to add to the noisy activity of woodworking buy getting tools that make more noise than they should. Thus, I'm going to purchase a Pro Cabinet TS. I wired the garage for 220, and that means I can go 3HP. I know 5HP is more saw than I will ever use. I don't have a issue spending the money on GOOD quality and lots of options, but I won't waist money on something I'll never use - like the 2 extra HP. So, what Brand of TS should I buy?

A little about myself: I play guitar for pleasure, and I'm a computer consultant. I make my living with my fingers. All my friends and family tell me, "You should hire someone to do that home construction!" or "Just go out and buy that piece of furniture you want!" because "Someone that makes a living typing shouldn't be near a saw!" I understand those opinions, but they just don't cut it. I love working with the wood and building things. But, most of all, I love counting on my fingers with my four year old.

I've used Jet and PM saws over the years. I liked them. Several years ago, I almost pulled the trigger on a Grizzly, but didn't because I don't usually go for the bargain brand. I know that if I get a saw that isn't REALLY good, I'll always regret not spending the extra cash to have the saw I REALLY wanted. After many hours of scouring reviews on this and other sites and talking to people at pro shops, I don't think I want to buy a Delta. They seem to be on the down side of their reign. Then I cam across what I think is the one for me…the SawStop. If all things where the same, I'd choose the SawStop for safety and safety alone.

So, that's the question, are all things the same? SawStop is "Top In Class?" but when one spends that kind of money on a saw, shouldn't all the top saws perform pretty much the same? Shouldn't they all have the same: options, build quality, ease of use, noise level, dust collection, ease of alignment, cut quality, etc?

If there is a really good reason, other than price, to choose a saw other than the SawStop, I will seriously consider it that saw. Especially since there are after market safety devices like the WhirlWind that will hopefully be coming to market soon.

I am inviting the mud slinging. I'm calling the fighters to their corners so the fight can begin. Please save me from drinking the SawStop Kool-Aid and convince me to save the money and still end up with a GREAT saw. I'd love to tell my wife I'm saving money….so I can buy a great dust collector.

I know there's a lot of politics involved with SawStop. I've read all about it. I personally love politics. I'm a free market/fewer government regulation type, and usually vote with my wallet. Those types of issues are not what I want to discuss. I'd like to hear the reason why I should buy "x" as apposed to "y" based on manufacturing quality, the saw's capability, ease of use, etc.

I've read all sorts of reviews of lots of brands, but none that I've come across really do a comprehensive apples to apples comparisons of the saws, like Consumer Reports does for TV's.

Of course, at any time, anyone could save a lot of the mud slinging by providing a link to that elusive and comprehensive Consumer Reports review.
 
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#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
I agree. I currently do not see a reason to purchase a Powermatic or Delta cabinet saw if the Sawstop is the same price. Those saws have no advantages over the Sawstop. Basically, it's like getting the safety feature for free.

I hate the politics of all that, and I suppose if I were more idealistic in that regard (e.g. as full of piss and vinegar as I used to be) then I would be leading the boycott. But until there are similar safety devices on other saws, my next saw will be a Sawstop…and BTW I own a 3HP Delta Unisaw.

We all try to be safe in the shop, which is most important because we want to avoid catastrophes. But it's the things we DON'T foresee that can cause the loss of a digit(s). For that reason, I'd love the extra layer of protection that such technology provides.
 
#4 ·
As a fellow guitarist and IT person, my next saw will be a SawStop. I currently have a Grizzley 1023 which is a great saw, powerful, accurate and well-made.

I'm thinking about a coast-to-coast relocation and will probably sell the Grizzley rather than pay to move it. That would make room for the SawStop.

I think that once you get into the decent-quality cabinet saws, the quality differences start to shrink as per the law of diminishing returns. Having said that, by all accounts the SawStop is a quality saw that is worth the money.

Regarding the politics, what matters most? A political stance or keeping all ten of your fingers? That's a personal question that is up to each of us.
 
#5 ·
Reading your post, it sounds like you've already decided to buy the SawStop and are currently trying to second-guess yourself with this posting. If you've already read all the reviews and done your homework like you say, go with your gut and buy the SS.
 
#6 ·
If I were buying a cabinet saw, I can't think of reason to avoid a SS. I've never heard any gripe about their performance. The cost among the cabinet saws is pretty comparable. Its the entry/mid level saws that would become less-affordable if SS tech were legally mandated. I'd personally pay a small additional percentage for a SS cabinet saw - all else being equal. But I wouldn't want to pay an additional $300 for an entry-level Ryobi saw that has licensed SS technology.
 
#7 ·
The very best safety device in your shop is right between your ears!

You know, I am one of those voices you hear against SawStop in LJ's. But I have obviously not made myself clear. I have nothing against SawStop technology. I design sensors for a living. I understand the technology behind SawStop and I think it probably works very well. And they have every right to be successful selling their saws in competition with every other saw manufacturer. More power to them! (is there a pun in there?)

But I take exception to lobbying for a government mandate to force people to buy SawStop technology!
 
#9 ·
The cost of a ss cabinet saw is on par with the other top saws. I am not a pro cabinet maker but all those i know switched to ss when it was time to replace their equipment.

look at the woodworkers who are on tv like tommy mc , they also did.

i do not see why one would want to not have a ss when its available at a similar price and quality than the delta's or the likes.
 
#10 ·
Devil's advocate here…
How is buying a SawStop Tablesaw going to "save" you from cutting your digits off with your Bandsaw, or chewing your digits off with either your Jointer or your Planer?

To narrow this whole safety issue down to "just a tablesaw thing" sounds way too ingenuine as a standalone argument for your well being. If your other hobbies and profession are that critical to you then you need to truly sit down and come to a well thought out decision as to either BE or NOT BE into woodworking, at all.

Yeah, I know this is a strong statement, but I do think that many, many folks truly need to have that discussion with themselves. My 2-cents…
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
A couple of points.

#1. I have stated this clearly and without hesitation here and elsewhere but it bears repeating. I 100% despise the SawStop inventors business tactics of using Government and the courts to push his invention.
#2. The blade brake on the SawStop table saw does nothing to protect you when it is turned off when you are cutting green / wet woods like pressure treated.
#3. The blade brake does nothing to protect you on the miter saw, band saw, lathe, jointer etc…

Having said that, I do know from what I have seen, and heard, seeing a Sawstop first hand, they are every bit as well made as a UniSaw, or a Powermatic. I don't particularly care for how short they are, but then again, I can make that complaint about most table saws. I have back issues and I hate to have to stoop for anything.

The cabinet saw version, has excellent dust collection, great mass, wonderfully flat true and smooth top, great fence, silky smooth elevation and tilt. It is a top notch saw for sure.

To be blunt, I love my little cheapie Ryobi BT3100. I know folks will fuss at me about it, but it has been a great saw. But I know it is going to eventually die. When it does, I hope to have the funds to replace it with a SawStop 3HP PCS. I will put it up on a 4" riser to reduce my stooping, and call it good!

Now having said that, if Grizzly were to come out with something that did the same sort of thing, in a saw similar to the G0691 for example, or say a Delta Unisaw 3HP with blade brake tech, and marketed it at a reasonable price, there is no way I would spend a dime with SawStop due to their business practices.
 
#14 ·
It makes basic common sense to be as safe as possible …using common sense, caution, your brain and the most safe tools possible are a no brainer. The weakest link in this chain can cause an accident and the saw with the most safety features such as the Saw Stop will be a strong link. Common sense, focus, concentration and caution are free…only the saw stop costs money. You should go for the Saw Stop. I can not imagine why you would regret buying it…especially since it is quality.
 
#15 ·
I bought a SawStop PCS when I moved into my new shop 6 months ago. With 2 grandsons spending some time in the shop, the brake/safety mechanism was a major factor in making the decision to purchase, but since then, I have come to really appreciate the engineering and quality of the saw.

-Gerry
 
#17 ·
I wouldn't dissuade anyone from purchasing a SS if the resources were available to them. I am opposed to the business practices, as others already mentioned. I do want to mention that much of my angst has to do with the comment made by ChrisK, #7 (No offense Chris your comment about the bypass is the focal point, not your comments personally). Bypassing the safety mechanism for fear of triggering the safety unnecessarily is the same as removing the splitter, or the blade guard, or the riving knife, or any other safety mechanism on another saw. Most of the accidents that brought this matter to the government involved the removing of safety features that are already pre-existent on other saws. Note that I say "most" as I am aware that safety features are not 100% guaranteed to stop an accident. But, in the case of the Ryobi saw, where the company was found at fault for not having this technology, the bladeguard and splitter were removed from the saw and a dangerous cut was performed. To me, the ability to bypass the safety switch makes sawstop no different than any other saw that is also compromised. If you have the money for the SS, definitely go for it. But, if you ever bypass the safety sensor, then you are automatically putting yourself at risk and defeating the purpose of the saw.

My two cents,

David
 
#19 ·
You guys must have way more money than me. :)
I just looked at pricing for a Sawstop professional cabinet saw with a 30" fence. $2300.
My table saw, jointer, planer, band saw, DC and drill press don't add up to that. ($1800)

I know some folks are passionate about the SawStop and if it's a great saw, and you have that kind of disposable cash, then by all means I'd say go for it.

I also agree that the table saw is NOT the only dangerous thing in a work shop full of power tools and equipment. And any one of the OTHER power tools can mangle you up pretty bad.

I think a lot of this comes down to "what's important to you?"
There are LOTS and lots and lots of long-time woodworkers that have all of their fingers.
My saw, while nowhere NEAR the high end, is still a really good saw. It cuts true, stays adjusted, has a very high degree of repeatability, and runs smooth and quiet. In other words, it does what a table saw is expected to do.
It does NOT know whether it's cutting wood or fingers though. I kind of assumed that's MY job.

Now before you crucify me, I'll say that IF I had a $2300 budget JUST for a table saw, I'd probably get the saw stop because it IS a safer saw, AND it looks like a high quality piece of equipment, but I can't do everything on a table saw. I needed other stuff too.

I would LOVE to be able to afford a bigger jointer, a bigger planer, hell a bigger SHOP, but…. I have limits that I need to respect. And one of those is budget.

So again… I think it comes back to "What's important to you?" And don't blow smoke up my butt and tell me it's your fingers. With all of the other things you do as a woodworker, that tablesaw is only a very small percentage of your risk. Use your head. Stay focused on what you're doing and prepare your workspace to be as safe as possible. But if you're going to COUNT ON someone else stopping the saw for you because you ran your hand into it, you probably should take up piano or something.

Not trying to be a jerk, but….. well… I guess I'm a jerk. :)
AND… everyone's entitled to spend their money however they choose. :)
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
A couple of thoughts here:

I teach school and have a Saw Stop and a Unisaw (with a Biesmeyer Fence). I also have a Ridgid 4512 at home. The Saw Stop is at the very least the equal of the Unisaw in all areas and categories. The only thing that I have not done on the saw stop at this point is set up the dado stack. This requires a different throat (I could make them… but haven't) plate, and a far different setup for the brake cartridge. I bought a very good Freud Stack Dado Set last year (8"), and I use it on the Unisaw. The Saw Stop gets used only for ripping and cross cutting.

The safety concerns of having student using the table saw convinced me and the school board to invest in the Saw Stop. I have had one cartridge discharge to date: A special needs student that violated a safety rule. He didn't get his finger/hand into the blade or riving knife. He was using the aluminum taper jig and pulled it back before the table saw had come to a complete stop. It got into the blade. This caused a trigger. Fortunately, it didn't send the jig back into his face. Needless to say, this individual isn't using many stationary power tools these days.

What HorizontalMike said is correct about other tools causing similar/same damage. However, the table saw seems to be a far larger contributor to shop accidents than the other tools he listed.

Roll the dice and get the saw. You won't regret it. Ever.
 
#21 ·
While I certainly appreciate (and strongly practice) the argument that safety is a function of your mind, I do appreciate any extra edge I can get in preserving life and limb.

I do find the argument that SS technology won't protect against bandsaw, jointer or mitre saw accidents to be a little silly. I don't expect the anti-lock brakes on my car to protect me when I'm riding my motorcycle and I certainly wouldn't expect my table saw safety feature to protect me from a bandsaw injury.
 
#23 ·
Your devilish point is valid, Mike. But, a.) I consider the table saw a more dangerous piece of equipment and b.) I will always use the table saw MUCH more than other devices.

My point is simply that if you plan on spending $3200 for a saw all else being equal, you might as well give yourself the passive protection provided by such technology along WITH the active protection of smart and safe usage.

If I can have both, I will feel much better about that.

But yeah, I'm not in a hurry to upgrade. I'm a school teacher…money isn't growing on any trees that I can see. ;)
 
#24 ·
I don't think Mike was suggesting that SS should be responsible for the other tools. I think what some of us get tired of is the hoopla that makes it appear that one safety device will end the threat of shop accidents forever. Obviously, that is not the case. Most of the opinions on this are not by fellow shop workers but those that have opinions about what is best for the woodworker that never stepped foot in a shop or used a power tool.

This is not saying that the SS is not a wise investment. It is brilliant technology. But we should always remind ourselves that safety begins with the woodworker. It is beneficial to have a tool that can respond when we are not at our game, but the mindset will need to be there for every tool.
 
#26 ·
I also have a SS PCS. I have had it now for a couple of years. It is in my opinion the best tool I have in the shop. I would also higly advise if you have room to get the 52". It is awesome if you work with plywood.

I really don't care about their politics. I just know I like it. With all the things going on in this world politically, our tables saws pale in comparison. Aside from the saftey, I don't know as it is any better than the PM, in fact I think I like the PM fence better, but they are certainly so close in quality, I would choose the SS again in heartbeat. I have the wheels and have rigged the outfeed table to be easily detached. It all is awesome. But, I also agree that a dado is a PITA!

Having said that, as it was previously mentioned, you have many other tools that would do worse thing to your body than a TS….can you imagine putting your fingers in a Helical Jointer? Also, as mentioned safety is between your ears, but this will be a little "island" of saftey in your shop, one place where you are a little safer.

Earlextech sited some dollar amounts for med bills. I have a friend that cut a couple of fingers off and it was double that, his out of pocket was 9,000. How many sawstops will that buy?
Just my .02
Mike aka Moke
 
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