LumberJocks Woodworking Forum banner

A Near Tragedy

4K views 51 replies 29 participants last post by  TopamaxSurvivor 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Gloves, long sleeves, jewelry and long hair are all verboten in my shop around operating machinery. Here is another example of why. Near Tragedy A year or so ago, another young lady was not so lucky. She was strangled when her hair was caught in a metal lathe.
 
#3 ·
Student defies policy that requires hair "... to be pulled back…". Well that says it all. I have no sympathy here. Mom needs to suck it up and spend her time helping daughter to get over the traumatic event and aftermath. My 2-cents…

BTW, this very thing happened to my older sister in my father's machine shop (on a lathe), back in the early '70s. Don't remember any details since I was already overseas in USN at the time.
 
#4 ·
Old school, Mike! I try to balance those thoughts with a little more compassion (simply because I've done stupid stuff to hurt myself as well)...like trying to jump atop a pitched roof house from the top of my pickup truck. Don't ask…

But yeah, I've called myself every name in the book for my stupidity…and I think if we were a little less PC in this world, it'd probably save a lot more people. Being that we are/were both educators, I'm sure you and I would agree that if more people called things for what they were our system would be in much better shape.
 
#5 ·
Jay,
As you well know, shop class is different, and with truly real-world consequences for those who don't follow the rules. Beyond my sister's example I shared above, I also had a school mate (2yr younger) who lost 2-fingers on the Jointer in Shop Class.

I am not saying "mom" is a bad person, just a bit too much distracted… Maybe this is from the sensationalism/attention from the news media, and/or an additional possibly could be because of daughter's history as prom/homecoming queen (02:17 in video). At least HER hair will grow back, unlike my friend's fingers.
 
#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
Next we might see a call for "hair detection" technology? LOL
I think maybe a better call would be for "stupidity detection" tech don't you think?
(NOT, nature usually takes care of that just fine).
Every time I have been hurt it was because of a lapse in common sense or lack of thought for what ever reason - i.e. - it will take too long, getting just a little more done before I knock off for the day, not giving proper attention, etc.
The one good thing here is that she learned a good lesson without permanent damage and will live to continue learning if her mother and others don't muck things up too badly with the attitude of "it is someone else's fault" and "we need to protect everyone from their own stupidity".
I really believe that the lessens learned best are the ones that cost us something, be it a little pain, effort or what have you.
 
#7 ·
I don't know all the details in this instance, but I would tend to blame the teacher anyway. The girl should not have been allowed to use the machine unless she complied with safety rules. That said, maybe it's not so easy to keep an eye on all students at once. Or is it? My thought is that safety should be the teachers top priority. I don't believe the teacher should be unduly punished for this oversight, but it certainly is a serious enough to be noted on the record in case something like that happens again. I assume the student also learned something.

I didn't attend wood shop as a youth, but I have heard a lot of scary shop stories from my own kids and others who did. They all involved revolving machine tools, mostly lathes, but others as well. My personal feeling is that teaching the proper use and maintenance of hand tools would be much cheaper, more instructive and valuable, especially for first year wood shop students. Though I doubt all wood shop teachers have those skills themselves. I know hand tools can also be dangerous, but usually not life threatening like a skew chisel being slung from a lathe and stuck into a door frame just as the teacher walks through it (True story, honest).

I realize hindsight is always better than foresight, but tough safety rules are really a must in a place where serious accidents can happen very fast and without warning.
 
#10 ·
stefang, please don't take this the wrong way, but as a retired shop teacher who currently provides training to "shop teachers" and administrators on how to provide safety instruction to students, I have a few thoughts.

You state "I don't know all the details in this instance, but I would tend to blame the teacher anyway. The girl should not have been allowed to use the machine unless she complied with safety rules." You are correct in that we DON"T know all the details. We hear Mom's impression and that of a reporter.

As a retired shop teacher of 34 years, I know from experience that the student was most likely not"allowed to use the machine" without following the safety rules. You are correct when you state "maybe it's not so easy to keep an eye on all students at once." When you have a class of students all working in a shop at once, a teacher cannot see every student perform every action every time. Another news account quotes the student as saying she knew to keep her hair tied back. A shop teacher must be ever alert and on the move in the classroom, ever vigilant to unsafe actions, but students are human and it is ultimately up to them to follow the rules that they have been taught.

You write of "teaching the proper use and maintenance of hand tools" as a alternative to machine instruction. The use of machines can be successfully and safely done at any level from middle to high school. However, the age and maturity of the students MUST be considered when deciding what machines a student will be allowed to operate.

I do have one concern from one of the news stories I read. It said the teacher did not send the student to the school nurse. He allowed her to walk to her next class. I believe that was a serious mistake. A teacher should let a trained health professional make the decision concerning the severity of the injury. It appears that the nurse did not believe the student needed emergency treatment since the student was allowed to remain at school.

Finally, I agree that "tough safety rules are really a must in a place where serious accidents can happen very fast and without warning". We don't know that those rules were not in place in this class. The teacher did have 29 years of experience in teaching such a class. Some teachers are better at teaching a comprehensive and successful safety program that others. However, my experience shows that even the weakest of such teachers are concerned about student safety.
 
#11 ·
It's also amazingly scarey to watch Woodsmith. Those guys operte all kinds of power tools - TABLESAW - with long sleeve shirts. Talk about unsafe on TV so any soul who has not operated any kind of power equipment can see that it's ok. Gives me the willy-wobbles.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
Both are at fault, the girl just has youthful stupidity and inexperience on her side, the teacher should have paid more attention to make sure everyone was at least starting off watching the safety rules. I would still place a touch more blame on the teacher then the student; he should have checked that all the students were starting off properly dressed, especially dealing with high schoolers who don't believe that it can happen to them even if they are skirting the rules. A reprimand for him not taking enough caution and a bill to the school for a weave for her and all should be fair if our system worked properly.
 
#13 ·
I would have to give the shop teacher the innocent until proven guilty verdict. First let me state that I remember my wood shop days and the shop teacher must have been a saint to handle our attitudes and behavior. We were exposed to the safety rules and instructed in proper use of the tools, in quite a few of our cases his instruction was irrelevant, we were not listening, we were kids. How much can one worry about what they are doing when their main goal is to try and get the teacher/instructor's head close enough to the dust collector to suck his toupee off. In my job environment today we have a job specific safety meeting not only every day but as jobs change. We are told of the work being preformed and informed of known common issues, and ones a bit more specific to the days tasks. Some of those meetings contain valid information but some are repetitive and boring. Wait was that the little boy from wood shop, "I've done this a hundred times," or "yes I know that, but" or "but I just have one hole to drill."

I do feel sorry for the young girl who had to learn a lesson the hard way, a lesson she should never have learned in this fashion. Mistakes and misjudgements were made by all parties including the other students who also should have stopped her from using the machine and reminded her she needs to put her hair right. It might be true that the shop teacher is responsible for all that happens in his shop, but he is not his own boss in all cases. Additionally he can not see everything nor always respond across the shop before an accident might happen.

If the shop teacher had of sent the students to the office for discipline over the hair infractions etc would the mothers and the school district have been happy? How can the shop teacher properly monitor all of the students at all of the work stations while at the same time providing individual hands on instruction? I believe that safety is one area where politically correct should be outlawed. It is better to learn that ignoring safety rules will have consequences, and better those consequences be discipline than disaster.
 
#14 ·
I will blame the teacher only that they should be fairly conscious of fairly obvious safety violations. That being said, humans, especially youth, like to work on "it won't happen to me" theory. I knew a gentleman who lost his right arm at elbow on a metal lathe. He broke a couple shop rules. Long sleeve shirt and gloves. Always complained that he was cold so they ignored him. Every person in the shop should be willing to point out safety violations to anyone. It's simply the best thing to do.
 
#15 ·
I agree with Monte! The teacher is responsible for this kind of accident.

That being said, I feel truly sorry for the girl but she should also count her blessings as it could have been much, much worse. Kids are resilient and with hair transplant technology today in a couple of years no one will know what happened to her.

Back when I was in shop class, almost 50+ years ago, the teacher had a check list that was used before any shop work for all safety related issues but one student proceeded to cut off the tips of three fingers when pushing material through the TS.
He was not using the push sticks and/or pads which probably would have prevented the accident. Fortunately, this was in Rochester Minnesota, home of the Mayo Clinic, and his fingers were re-attached to the point of no disfigurement but limited functionality.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: If we held each child's parents to the same safety standards that we require of all "teachers", nearly all children would be living under Protective Custody arrangements/environments mandated by the local Courts.

  • Should we require parents lose their employment because of the resulting negligence (lack of time spent) in their "parenting"?
  • Should we remove children from their parents custody if this happened "at home"?
  • Should parents be fined, in order to recover the costs of prosecuting them for negligence?
  • Should parents be forced to disclose "parental negligence" to all current and future employers?

I am NOT saying these things SHOULD occur to parents when a mistake or accident occurs, though the current mindset of many is to expect just that IF they are teachers.

As a retired teacher and school administrator, that is my observation. Shouldn't our expectations of parents be set to the same standards we set for our teachers? Hmm…
 
#18 ·
As a retired teacher and school administrator, that is my observation. Shouldn't our expectations of parents be set to the same standards we set for our teachers? Hmm…

No..........

Teachers are trained in thier craft. Parents are not…..........
 
#19 ·
redryder: _"...Teachers are trained in their craft. Parents are not…….........."

That may currently be true in most cases, however the Courts have noticed that lack of training and are increasingly ISSUING COURT ORDERED PARENTING CLASSES
in an attempt to correct this deficiency.

I know that in some of the high schools that I have administered, we offered "parenting classes" to student mothers/fathers. I do not know why such programming couldn't be expanded to serve the entire community. After all, poor parenting affects not only those particular students, but all others as well when it spills into classrooms and into the community as a whole.
 
#22 ·
It's sad to hear the story, but she's lucky anyway for not having further damages. I think the blame should be charged on the teacher. I am not overlooking things here but the teacher is the very person who has the authority and responsibility in taking the students inside the shop. Safety precautions and measures should have been observed before allowing the students get inside the shop. Those who have long hair should have been pinned and tied or wrapped their hair with a hair net. Orientation must have been observed before going to the machines. These measures should have avoided the tragedy from happening.
 
#23 ·
The shop teacher had 29yr of experience:
  • Is it possible he have made a mistake in supervising the student? Yes
  • Is it likely he made the mistake in supervising the student? No

Respecting authoring and the following instructions/orders/directives(or however you put it) is something that is primarily taught at home via proper "parenting", and that appears to have been lacking in the limited information that we have privy to regarding the student following proper procedures.

"Don't put your hand on a hot stove. Don't put your hand on a hot stove. Don't put your hand on a hot stove… OUCH! That hurt!"
 
#24 ·
You've got a point there, Mike. But I think we can't directly take the blame on the parent's lack of proper parenting, though the parents may have a little share for the blame. The teacher, IMHO, should've the bigger part of the blame because he's the very person who has the direct authority inside the shop. He knows the machines best than the students nor the parents. I am thinking now, maybe because of his 29 years of teaching and have not experienced any tragedy before in his hands, he was confident enough nothing would happen like the past 28 years of his teaching career.
 
#25 ·
I teach wood shop classes. I am not defending the teacher but I do have a question for some of you.

I have a class of 17 students. They are all required to take safety tests and pass preformance tests on all of the machines that we use and general shop safety. When we are in the shop I keep track of all 17, to the best of my ability, watching who is using what machines and what they are working on. But sometimes someone needs specific help, which takes my attention from the whole group and focuses it down a bit so I can help with the individual. I still am mostly aware of what all 17 are doing, but some can fly under the radar for a moment or two. and it only takes a moment or two for a student to do something stupid. what should I do to prevent the student from making a stupid choice in that moment?

I wouldn't have let my students walk out into the shop with their hair down (I myself make a show of putting mine up, to prove the point) but I have had the battle of wits with highschool girls who like to think they can take it down every time I turn my back. (or have long bangs that don't tie back well, or wear their pony tail in a way that isn't helpful to the safety standard) try going into a highschool and arguing fashion over function with a seinor girl, you will lose! espically if you are an old man (i am lucky, as a younger woman, they will sometimes listen to me)

sometimes students choose to do things that are not safe, sometimes adults choose to do things that are not safe. In todays culture people hate to take responsibility and say, "i did something stupid" rather they want to blame anyone else that they can.
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
Surfside,

"the teacher is the very person who has the authority and responsibility in taking the students inside the shop" Not totally correct. The school principal and counselors who schedule the number of students into the class have a responsibility as well. It is difficult to observe all students in a class with large numbers of students. About four years ago when I was an school district administrator over Trade and Industrial classes, I walked into a Carpentry class. It was overloaded with students. I asked the teacher how many students were on the roll. He said 42!!!!! I immediately went and had a talk with the one person that could do something about that, the principal. His reply, "Where am I supposed to put them?"

However, the teacher ultimately does decide when the student has proven that they have the knowledge to go to work in the shop. "Shop teachers" typically document that they have demonstrated a machine to each student. The student typically takes a safety test that they must pass with a score of 100%. Typically a student must demonstrate the safe use of the machine to the teacher. Only then will the student be allowed to operate the machine. Did the teacher take all of these actions? We don't KNOW. A teacher with 29 years of experience would most likely do so.

"Safety precautions and measures should have been observed before allowing the students get inside the shop. " Do you KNOW that did not happen? Nothing I have read in any of the news reports indicates that those precautions did not take place.

"Orientation must have been observed before going to the machines." Again, do you KNOW that such an orientation did not occur?

"Those who have long hair should have been pinned and tied or wrapped their hair with a hair net." Do you KNOW that did not happen? Another news account quotes the student as saying she knew to keep her hair tied back. If she knew that, it appears that there was a safety rule in place to cover such a situation.

"These measures should have avoided the tragedy from happening." Even if the measures were in place, the accident could have happened. The student was human and humans make mistakes! If the teacher took all the measures you describe, there is no guarantee that the accident would have been prevented.

I hate to get on my soap box here again. I just don't like to see people jump on the teacher without knowing all the facts.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top