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Table/Hybrid/Cabinet saw recommendation for a hobbyist

10K views 33 replies 14 participants last post by  knotscott 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
By the end of January (2012) we will have finally moved out of our starter home and my teeny-tiny bench, into our "family" house… with a dedicated entire room (with easy access) for my wood shop (sweet). I have never had the room for a table/hybrid/cabinet saw, but now I will, and better yet, my wife has given me the go-ahead to find the one for me… on a reasonable budget (crap).

Now I've been reading forums for over a year to figure out the saw for me, but, honestly, you people have me completely frustrated. Some of you say a table-saw is fine, while others say I will be frustrated and wish I had a cabinet saw. Then there are the hybrids, which some of you are fine with, while others are not. Not to mention the multitude of you who apparently have ready access to dozens of used saws that are just seemingly lying around to be snatched up for a steal at the local corner estate sale.

So I'm asking… nay, begging. Help me find my saw.

Here are a few of my needs, and please take them into consideration should you decide to respond:

Budget = less than $1200 (max)
Use = hopefully often
Type of projects = furniture (in general) using all types of wood
My skill level = hobbyist now, but I do like to put out good quality stuff and I plan on this being a developing and expanding love

Thank you for all your kind and encouraging words… in advance.
 
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#2 ·
Grizzly makes a Cabinet saw 2hp, in the $1,200 range- but tax and shipping on top. They also make a Hybrid style cabinet saw, and from the reviews I have read they perform nicely, and have some thoughtful design elements that often suprise.

I am going to buy the 3 or 5 HP grizzly shortly… the reviews of the Unisaw and Powermatic versus the Grizzly for the money have not convinced me they are worth it- while I am sure in overall picture they are oustanding products…
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
For solid wood furniture making the table saw is over-rated.

Modern full sized table saws are essentially specialized for
cabinet making with manufactured boards like plywood and
melamine.

I'd say an 18" bandsaw is a better investment if you want
to make furniture. With a band saw, jointer and planer
and hand tools you can do everything fundamental to
furniture except machine shaping.

If I were starting over with a limited budget I'd buy used, for
one, and I would get a 6" jointer, a planer, an 18" band saw
and a small, tilt-table saw like the old 9" Delta for cutting
joints and tenon shoulders and a miter saw.

In any case, if you've got $1200 to spend you are getting pretty
close to a used Mini-max or other Italian 60" slider.
 
#5 ·
Ahhhhh.

Loren: I have a lot of respect for your experience and wisdom, so … a sincere question:

Over-rated is like saying Festool is over-priced. It may BE, but … it seems to be a verrrrrry good product.

Would you disagree that-for almost ANY stationary woodworking application-a cabinet saw is rarely/never a lesser/worse option ??

Not that something else wouldn't suffice, but … money aside (which is where USED comes in), is it really often the wrong choice, if there's room for one ?
 
#7 ·
I just upgraded to a used Grizzley 1023L. I bought it used for $200. Its a very nice saw and I love it. I upgraded from and old craftsman contractor saw. Before that I had several portable job site table saws.

I made each saw do anything I wanted it to do. Had I not got such a good deal, I'd still be using the craftsman. I doubt there are many people who work full time doing something other than woodworking who do more than I do, so I like to have good tools. To me a good tool is something that will always do what I need it to do.

I have no idea what your financial situation is, so this really comes down to money. If you can really afford $1200 for a TS, then you will love it. If however that $1200 would be better served in your kids college fund, its not going to stop you from having a great time woodworking.

Think about what you typically do with a table saw. If 90% of the time all you need is a square fence and a sharp blade, is it worth $1200.
 
#8 ·
$1200 will buy a lot. I would suggest buying used to maximize your budget. You haven't mentioned any other tools that you already have - but if you want to make furniture, you're going to want more than just a table saw. Planer, jointer, router table, etc. I wouldn't "blow the wad" on just one tool. If you shop used & shop smart, you will probably be able to pick up several things that will be useful for that budget.
 
#11 ·
Jeff: after I first uttered the word "woodworking," I bought a $90 Ryobi 10" saw. Crap. Pure crap.

Then, I bought and upgraded a Bosch 4100 jobsite saw. A VERY good saw, for what it does, but …..

1) Small table, meaning … limited capacity-particularly on the infeed side, making it harder to feed bigger boards, or even to use my crosscut sled without support.

2) Not powerful. Not WEAK, mind you, but … you NEED a good blade, the right tooth-count blade, and to think a lot about feed rates. With 3hp and 5hp cabinet saws … that's much less of an issue..

3) The Bosch has a very good fence, but … when I check out cabinet saws with TRULY good fences, they are beefy, they are stable, they do NOT deflect, and they are accurate.

4) My Bosch weighs about-Idunno-90 pounds-ish ? It's hard to get really good accuracy with a saw that likes to dance with you, a bit. A cabinet saw weighs … maybe 300 to maybe 700 pounds, plus ? You say "Sit !" They sit.

5) Dust collection. Mine has a 2-1/2" port and a LOT of open spaces (that could be closed, but ….). Dust collection is mediocre, but … for a jobsite saw … not the priority. The ability to put an overhead DC guard and 4" pipe into the cabinet, and have much better dust collection … is worth something to me.

To Loren, again. I'd really defer to others. Truly, I would. I have NOT lived with a cabinet saw (yet !), but DO understand that it isn't the tools; it's the skill of the user. I never look at my Bosch as "making me less of a woodworker," because … frankly … it isn't. I just think … I have to think and plan more, to get the most out of it than I would with a cabinet saw.

The smaller saws run on 110V. The cabinets … largely (all ?) run on 220V, which … at this point … I just haven't put together.

Finally, a good hybrid/contractor/jobsite saw, with a good stand, NEW, is probably nearly the same price as a good condition, used cabinet saw.

My $0.02 … on a topic that's probably MUCH better covered, elsewhere, and by MUCH more experienced people ;-)
 
#13 ·
Thanks again guys. Well, so far I've been using straightedges and clamps with a circular saw for all of my long cuts. It works, but the setup can be a killer. As for dados, I'm fairly adept again at using straightedges and clamps with my router, but again the setup can be a killer. I have a decent setup for everything except standing saws (table and band). I have a jointer, but I actually like using my planes for a lot of my jointing and smoothing "finishing" work.

So, really, I'm just looking for advice on brands and models, as well as shop setup. Loren, this is why I would be interested to hear more about the tilting saw as well as advice on 18" band saws, a subtopic unto itself I am sure.

As for a tablesaw, I grew up using my dad's Craftsman contractor saw, and it always frustrated me. Underpowered, and the fence was junk. Then I took some furniture classes at the local art institute and they had a good cabinet saw, so now I'm spoiled. I don't necessarily need the absolute best, but I don't want a piece of crap either. I'm basically looking for something that will make consistent, reliable and accurate cuts. I'm an engineer by trade, therefor anal, so quality is an important factor.

Knowing what you know now, any more recs on table / band / tilting table saws? Brand and model would be a big help… probably more than telling me that I will be happy with whatever I get for $1200, or that I can find a good used saw. That I know.

Last but not least, $1200 is my budget as defined by the limits of my "toy fund," but by no means my goal.
 
#14 ·
Thanks Neil, I had read that one, but it doesn't say much about the saws themselves. I'm hoping you all can give me some guidance based on personal experience. For example, I was originally convinced that I wanted one of Grizzly's hybrids, but then I found a bunch of people who wrote in about problems with alignment that eventually led them to return the saw. I don't want that frustration. I'm not that patient.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
Jeff - I'll give you some of my experience. I bought a used Ridgid 3660 for a $300. So far, the capabilities of the saw far exceed the capabilities of the user. The biggest "gripe" is dust control - like most contractor saws, it's lacking. To be fair, I'm also using a shopvac vs. dedicated dust collection. The fence on this saw is really good considering the price. I was able to adjust everything to square & it hasn't required re-adjustment yet. If you find a specific model that you're interested in, you'll be able to see pretty quickly if alignment issues are common. My understanding of the Grizzly's is that certain models may be more prone to that, but not ALL Grizzy saws have the issue.

I'll go back to what I said before about buying used. If you get a used saw for a good price & find out a year or two from now that it's not cutting it, you should be able to get most of your money back out of it. Probably not true if you buy new. Just like cars, the original buyer suffers most of the depreciation. Other things that I have in the queue for my saw are an outfeed table and some sleds/jigs. It's not super-expensive to make the stuff, but you're going to want them so keep money in the budget for that as well.

If I had your budget, I'd look for a used Grizzly, Delta, General, PM & use the rest of the budget on other stuff. I'd spend the $1200 now, before the wife changes her mind.. ;)

edit - you can take a look at Jet, too, although around here I don't see those very often..
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
The thing with dados is usually they go across the board. Cutting
dados on a table saw, if that's the sort of joint you want to build
with, is a matter of making a cut off box wide enough to support
the boards you'll be dadoing. A miter gauge is not good for dadoing
either a 24" deep panel or a shelf vertical much more than 36" long.
of course you can work from both sides of the blade with your miter
gauge and so on and dado considerably longer boards but it gets
precarious to control the board at times.

Yes, with a bigger saw you can dado the 24" panel with the fence,
but the shelf vertical in a 10" deep bookshelf for example becomes
a problem unless you've got lots of outboard support…. so actually
a wide cutoff box and a narrow, longer one for shelf verticals is one
solution. Another is to take the tool to the work and cut the dados
with a router.

In general I'd rather use dowels or biscuits than dados for casework.
Cutting dados makes a lot of sawdust and the strength of the joint
isn't often necessary.

Without a slider, cutting dados on the table saw often demands using
a cross-cut box, a secondary table in effect. You can put a giant
cross-cut box on a little saw if you want to. It's not really an issue
that having a big saw hogging up half your shop solves very elegantly.

Around here, lots of vertical panel routers are being sold off by shops
that don't use them. They used to be used for production dado cutting -
many pro shops wouldn't dado on the table saw anyway since the
panel router could be left set up.
 
#18 ·
Loren, back to your suggestion about getting a bandsaw before a tablesaw, and I'm asking your opinion as well as anyone else's who cares to chime in, what are the advantages of a bandsaw over a tablesaw? What will I be gaining? What will I be loosing?
 
#19 ·
I'm just saying that having a nice, larger bandsaw is likely
to open up a lot of possibilities for you in woodworking -
while a big table saw just does what a small one does with
more power.

Bandsaws obviously can cut curves and resaw boards, but
they can also cut tenons, cut through dovetails, mill
found lumber and logs. They are quieter and safer to
use than the table saws.

Of course a bandsaw cannot make grooves or rabbets and
tenon shoulders cut on a band saw are not the most
satisfactory.

The reason I say go with an 18" band saw (or larger) is
because that extra 4" of throat depth really makes a difference
in crosscutting and scroll work on the band saw. A 14"
saw with a riser block can resaw wide boards, but you
can only cut a notch to the center of 1 28" long board or
panel… with an 18" saw you can cut to the center of
a 36" panel.

Working with a band saw is more like hand tool woodworking -
it welcomes creativity and play. The table saw by comparison
is a frighteningly rigid creature.
 
#20 ·
I have used a Jet 10 inch tablesaw I purchased new about 9 years ago.It has been a work horse for me .I have kept it in tune and use quality NG blades mostly for ripping .thousands of board feet have gone through this saw including hickory white oak cherry pine and douglas fir.I still have the original drive belt on it although it is showing signs of wear.The key to keeping a machine in top shape is constant maintenance and alwys checking to make sure it is cutting true.Also keep the blades clean and free from resin.I think these Jet saws run about 700 dollars now , well worth the cost! Bruce
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
A good hybrid is plenty capable of good hobby work if it's setup well and fitted with a good blade, but if you've got 220v, a 3hp cabinet saw is simply a significantly more substantial saw. Something like the Grizzly G1023RL isn't that much more than a good hybrid, but you definitely get a lot more. Depending on what you end up spending, sometimes it just makes sense to spend a smidge more a get a lifetime saw that'll never flinch. Every mechanical and user advantage goes to the 3hp cabinet saw.

Below are the guts from the former Grizzly G0478 hybrid, which had pretty typical underpinnings for a hybrid:


Here's a look at the guts of the G1023RL:


If you don't have 220v, or decide you shouldn't spend the extra, no worries…a hybrid will do well.

I would not substitute a BS for my TS. The TS is the heart and soul of my shop, and is the most commonly used cutting tool. I use it for ripping, crosscuts, sheetgoods, miters, dados, some resawing, bevels, grooves, making tenons, kerf cuts, etc. The finish is much rougher with a BS and needs to be dressed on every cut prior to glue up. One advantage of a BS over a TS is safety, but the cuts are more polished and precise with a TS. IMO a BS is best for cutting curves and resawing.
 
#23 ·
As you can see Jeff, you have gone full circle. Some like cabinet saws, some say it is overkill, some love hybrids, some hate them, blah blah blah :)

I have a Ridgid 3660, cast iron contractor saw. I don't think I will do much that would be difficult on that saw and make me regret not having a cabinet. However, that is my shop, not yours. A few things I can suggest that might help you no matter where you go -

1. Cast iron table. - Don't go for any aluminum models. Cast iron tables are stable and the heft keeps you from tipping them over when trying to stretch the capabilities just a few feet more. Some aluminum models are good if you plan on transporting it all over creation. But if you have dedicated shop space, use it for a dedicated saw.

2. Make sure the arbor can handle most if not an entire Dado set. Some arbors are short, if they can't do at least 3/4 inches, you will be unhappy eventually.

3. Make sure the miter slots are standard. Some saws have these undersized t-slots. You don't think about it much until you find yourself needing to use an accessory and find the slot is too small to hold the contraption you just bought.

4. Make sure it has a good fence to it. If not, plan on spending an extra 150-200 for a decent fencing system. Without accuracy, your woodworking will be nothing but a chore for you.

I love my contractor saw, I mean very deeply… I don't expect anyone else to. My shop, my choices. You follow your own dream tool and you will get there. When confronted with the decision to pull the trigger, feel good about it. If you have major doubts, give yourself just a little more time.

All I've got for you :)

David
 
#24 ·
Thanks everyone for your time and wisdom. I like what David had to say about making sure I get the right saw for me. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which side of the coin you are on, I've seen a few cabinet shops closing up around my area in the past few months. They seem to be quite eager to unload their tools, so maybe I will get an opportunity at a great deal. We shall see.

Last question for a while, I found someone wanting to sell a "barely used" Craftsman 22124 with an aftermarket mobile kit. He claims he purchased it for $1200, but that sounds really high considering what I have read. He's asking $700, which again seems lofty. Any thoughts or reservations about this saw, and the price?
 
#25 ·
I have a hybrid. A Ridgid TS4511 with a granite top (1-3/4" thick) weighs 425lbs. I bought it for just under $600. I do not, and I have yet to see on LJs any serious complaint about the saw other than the assembly instructions being awful. I really like it a lot. For myself I took it out of the box and once I figured out what the assembly instructions were trying to say it assembled easily and was very accurate (within .001") for miter blade and fence. I still use the original fence and on occasion the original miter (I attach my backing board to it).

Like many LJs I am on a limited budget when it comes to buying tools (if you don't make money off of it - a hobbiest - you can't really call it an investment). One thing I have found is you always need more - more tools, more blades, more accessories. I say that to suggest you not blow your entire budget on one tool.

As stated above there are lots of good tools out there (and some crap). Buy used if you can but know what you are buying and what to look for. A tool that looks like crap but is essentially sound can usually be purchased for less than one that looks good but in crappy working condition. Rust is fairly easy to get rid of if it is not too bad and even. But motors, arbors, bent parts can get very difficult to replace or fix and can cost more than a new tool in the long run. (I running into this with a recent BS purchase - many of the cast aluminum parts are breaking from age and fatigue).
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
Jeff - Ask as many questions as you need to…not a problem.

The 22124 was a hybrid made by Steel City/Orion that had a surprisingly large happy following. It was launched around 2004 and featured a full enclosure, cabinet mounted trunnions (easy to reach and align), a commercial Biesemeyer fence, serpentine belt drive, 1-3/4hp NEMA 56 frame induction motor (a common off the shelf frame size), 44" cast iron table surface, and accepts Delta throat inserts. Overall a very nice hybrid that weighs about 425 pounds and is very stable. I had one for 3-1/2 years and loved it….it's not at the level of my 3hp cabinet saw, but with good alignment and the right blade, it could cut anything to full blade height without too much trouble. The sheer weight of it gives it more of the feel of a cabinet saw but it doesn't have the oomph of one. $1200 new sounds like the total cost at full retail price including tax, mobile base, and possibly an extended warranty ($1100 was the top MSRP AFAIK)...many were selling in the $850-$900 range at regular sale prices, some for < $600 with the right deals. $700 is on the high side for used, but there's not much else in a new saw that I'd consider to be an upgrade, though a new saw has dealer support and warranty. If it runs well and is in nice shape, I'd consider $550-$600 a fair offer….just my 2 cents.

A look under the hood:
 
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