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I don't "believe"

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3K views 47 replies 21 participants last post by  Roger Clark aka Rex 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Oh what the hell, right? If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

I don't usually proclaim the reasons for my non-belief in a deity or deities because it's like asking someone to explain why they don't believe in winged, purple elephants dispensing pixie dust.

What's odd is many religious believers think that by simply stating "No, I don't believe in God" their beliefs have come under attack. I suspect that what these "embattled believers" are saying is "shut up, we don't want to hear your views." I actually agree with this sentiment.

If I never had to mention or even entertain the thought that I don't believe in God or gods ever again, I would be an extremely happy camper. But, as long as some folks feel the need to publicly proclaim their god beliefs in all the subtle and not-so-subtle ways they do, it's only fair that expressions of non-belief in "winged, purple elephants dispensing pixie dust" type entities be given the same latitude.

In other words, don't complain when the response to god-talk is met with non-god talk. If you really would like us to shut up, I think you can probably figure out how that could best be accomplished given the above.
 
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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
Decided to shorten the above (it's still too long) and put the statistics here.

The latest statistics show that around 92% of all "Americans" believe in God, at least according to Gallup. Europe is much different. For example, only 23% of the Swedish population admit to believing in God.

The good news is that belief in God has been steadily but slowly declining in the US since the late 60s, with indications of an accelerating rate of decline over the past decade or two - the 90s have been called a "secular boom."

Perhaps the biggest shift has been the increase in individuals admitting (coming out the closet) that they don't believe in God. That's the highest it's ever been at approximately 7% now compared to 1% in the late 60s. In short, the "no religion" category is the fastest growing demographic in these studies.
 
#3 ·
Like it or not, the "religious" level of society ebbs and flows over time. It always has and always will. Individuals go back and forth (or sideways).

I respect your non-belief status for yourself today. Our belief status is personal and varies greatly even among the believers. We'll just all see what we come up with during our less than 100 revolutions around the Sun and see what happens.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
David, thank you for respecting it for at least today! :)

Religious belief obviously ebbs and flows over time, but in some countries/societies it's been remarkably stable from a demographic perspective. The US is one of those countries.

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Here are the Gallup results with the question asked differently during the 70s-90s

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#6 ·
I would not trust the pools as absolute anything unless I knew their sample size's population parameters matched the at least the latest census (sex, race, nationality, part of the country, socio-economic, etc. etc.) I would bet that it is really less now than stated above.

LOL… I will respect anyone's belief on this or anything else today, tomorrow and hereafter whether it remains as is or ebbs and flows. It's only when people on either /all side(s) of any issue try to self-justify their beliefs by belittling, berating and twisting and/or shoving words into the mouths of the other side that I can't stand or would elicit a like response from me (even stooped to the low trash-talk level that they can understand).
 
#7 ·
David, that's the right skepticism to have. Sampling issues are important and should always be front and center. Gallup has been doing this type of survey research since the 30s and are considered one of the top polling organizations in the world. Besides, other polling organizations like the Pew Research Center, Harris Poll, ARIS (American Religious Identification Survey), and others, have all reported similar statistics for years. Gallup has just been at it longer.

On top of all this, we have decades of research on religious beliefs and attitudes, church attendance, denominational shifts, demographic shifts in religion by race and ethnicity, and so on. If you want to see where the future of religion is heading in the US, look to Latinos. The largest ebbs and flows in religion today (in the US) are ethnic-based demographic shifts.
 
#10 ·
I personally have a strong belief in God.
However, I am thankful that I live in a country where you are free to believe whatever you wish to believe. I respect your beliefs. I usually don't discuss religion. I have a few friends who don't believe in God and will try to bait me into the whole God/No God debate. I say to them the same thing I will say here. I am an American. I am free to believe in God. You are free to believe there is no God. Unless one of us are a little unsure of how commited we are to our beliefs, then I see no reason for us to discuss it or try to change each other's minds.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
not only did i think it was ok….I thought it was very spiritually moving….watching him….jump…...up and down…..on a sofa…...on the Oprah show….Mission Impossible is such a good movie!

pierce i have to ask (and only curious about the point of view of a non-believer)

Where do you believe the very first piece of mass came from (living or dead)? That is what I struggle with. I believe in the big bang theory/evolution…...however it HAD to start from somewhere. even if it only started with one single cell….one single atom…..where did that atom come from? Thats where, for me, a higher power comes into play - its my only explanation. not trying to start a debate/fight with you…just curious to your view
 
#14 ·
"Empty" space is not how we think it is. Particles come into existence spontaneously. If you study some physics, you will find that our intuition, which evolved in dealing with things about the size and speed of a human, fail terribly far outside of those ranges.

It does take a leap of "faith" to get over the limit of our intuitions, but these seemingly bizarre ideas have been experimentally validated over and over again.

Richard Feynman said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."
 
#16 ·
As someone who honestly know what I believe I must say it seems most nonbelievers I see riticule, belittle, and insult christians. It's no wonder that some take it so personally.

I'm not saying it doesn't go the other way too but from what I've seen I can understand it.
 
#17 ·
It is simply intolerable, to most, to consider that bad things can happen for no good reason and that good doesn't always triumph. The world isn't a hostile place. It is indifferent. So, we construct our respective belief systems so that we can tell the stories that make us feel most comfortable. In that world, everything always has a reason
 
#18 ·
I used to be a seven day church goer. Many many years ago .I still believe in a life beyond death but I have no faith in most Christians and none in churches at all they have proven to me to be hypocrites and have treated me very shabbily .Those who's make the most noise are usually doing so for all the wrong reasons as I have learned over the years I don't go to church and haven't done so for 40 years because of the way I was treated as a young christian.In the end churches are rune like most large operations by humans who are very very short of what they preach.As a result I never took my kids to church and they have no interest in doing so them selves.The whole thing is based on fear and retribution guilt etc yet as I say the churches are run by sinners,with fancy words but more interested in the politics of the church and how they are perceived in the community than the truth .maybe it's different in USA I doubt it very much humans re humans and fall way short of what is required to allow them to preach to others while being just as bad themselves.Alistair
 
#19 ·
pat SAID: As someone who honestly know what I believe I must say it seems most nonbelievers I see riticule, belittle, and insult christians.

Don't you think it might have to do with christians history of showing intolerance to others?

For example:
Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!
Published in Greek, Athens 1994


YEAR
314 Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks
non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess
Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official
religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of
the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all
non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic
temples.

325 Nicene Council. The god-man gets a promotion: 'Christ is Divine'

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys
the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the
goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of
Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and
orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers."
Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes "all the
soothsayers and the Hellenists." Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned
or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in
Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a
"magician".

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship
through sacrifice and "idols".

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them
are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

Execution of pagan priests begins.

A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and
the execution of all "idolaters".

First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.

The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A
major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for
the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around
the empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is
declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian
(Flavius Claudius Julianus).

363 Assassination of Julian (26th June).

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those
that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination ("sileat omnibus
perpetuo divinandi curiositas").

Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order
the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death
penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.

The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia - western Asia Minor) orders that
religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday.
Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting
on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th
November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all
the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the
ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed.
The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is
decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius,
Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes
and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term "pagan"
(pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants") is
introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the
Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the
Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation
should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to
the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind".

In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the
Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his
area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of
goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and
Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries
and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine'
(thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all
their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the
Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On
21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the
temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

382 "Hellelujah" ("Glory to Yahweh") is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated
Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the
pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and
bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and
destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they
destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus
in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.

Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom
in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old
orator Libanius sends his famous epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with
the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and
spared.

389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed.
Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle
East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and
lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy
persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turning the temple of Dionysius
into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying
the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed
by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to
pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy
persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led
by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock
themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion).
After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it,
burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and
names them "superstitions of the gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New
full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of
Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop
"Saint" Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the
island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of
goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius's edict declares:

"The ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in
that island."

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis,
Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as
part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against
pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius
directs the hordes of baptized Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the
Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many
cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura,
Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable
gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down
the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the
hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated
as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and
hierophants.

397 "Demolish them!" Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing
pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including
Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza,
demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them
that remain active).

399 With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan
temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.

400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptizes all
the non-Christians of this area.

401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys
temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop "Saint" Porphyrius sends
his followers to lynch pagans and to demolish the remaining nine still
active temples of the city.

The 15th Council of Chalcedon orders all the Christians that still keep good
relations with their non-Christian relatives to be excommunicated (even
after their death).

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of grey-dressed monks armed with clubs and
iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially
support the demolition of the Hellenic temples. In Ephesus he orders the
destruction of the famous temple of Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints"
Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the pagans and the
total destruction of their temples and sanctuaries.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the
Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to
be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan
sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions
against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the
pagans are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of
protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be
punished by death.

415 In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a
few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the
famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried
around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally
burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron.

On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of
North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. Emperor
Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last
pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army
officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423 Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the
pagans is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist
in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429 The temple of goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is
sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

431 Council of Ephesus ("Robber Synod"). Promotion for the god-man - "Christ
is complete God and complete man."

435 On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty
for all "heretics" and pagans of the empire. Only Judaism is considered a
legal non-Christian religion.

438 Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the pagans,
incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason of a recent plague!

440 to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and temples of
Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.
book burning
448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

450 All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are
demolished and all its libraries burned down. The city is renamed
Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451 Council of Chalcedon. New edict by Theodosius II (4th November)
emphasizes that "idolatry" is punished by death. Assertion of orthodox
doctrine over the 'Monophysites' - 'JC has single, divine nature.'

457 to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire.
Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are
executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured
and imprisoned. The proselytizer Conon and his followers exterminate the
last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. The last
worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488 The majority of the pagans of Minor Asia are exterminated after a
desperate revolt against the emperor and the Church.

486 More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued,
tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.
full body baptism 515 Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that
already say they are Christians.

The emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius, orders the massacre of the pagans
in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the temple of local god
Theandrites.

523 Emperor Justin I outlaws the Arian heresy and campaigns to suppress
Arianism everywhere.

528 Emperor Justinian outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch.
He also orders the execution-by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild
beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails-of all who practice "sorcery,
divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the pagans
("the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").

529 Justinian outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its
property confiscated.

532 The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade
against the pagans of Minor Asia.

542 Justinian allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to forcibly convert the
pagans of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this
crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished
pagan temples.

546 Hundreds of pagans are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor
Ioannis Asiacus.

556 Justinian orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to
find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last non-Christians of the city
and burn all the private libraries down.

562 Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of
gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582 The Christians torture and crucify Hellenes all around the
Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last non-Christians of Heliopolis
(Baalbek).

580 The Christian inquisitors attack a secret temple of Zeus in Antioch. The
priest commits suicide, but the rest of the pagans are arrested. All the
prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to
Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the
lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up
crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob
and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583 New persecutions against the gentile Hellenes by Emperor Maurice.

590 In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers "discover" pagan
conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.

Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!
Published in Greek, Athens 1994
 
#21 ·
You make the assertion, you provide the proof. In the absence of proof, there is no reason to believe your assertion has any validity.

It seems that the problem with many believers, is that they aren't content to simply "believe", they have to insist that it is "true" and provable. Therein lies the problem.

I'm amazed at the number of religious people that don't seem to understand that if their beliefs were provable, then they would be scientific and there would be no need for faith. It is the essence of faith that is the cornerstone for religion, so any attempt to offer proof also undercuts the entire basis for religion.

I think there are two traits that can be problematic about religious people. It seems obvious that all people (religious or atheists) will have the normal human character flaws, bias', and sense of right/wrong as anyone. Even in the extremes, there isn't much difference between the two groups logic or rationale.

However, with religious people you always have to be cautious about:

(1). If they are truly religious, it is important to remember that their first loyalty is to their God, so you can't count on them to be loyal to you if it creates a conflict with their belief. While some people may see nothing wrong with this, it is an important consideration that someone may betray you because they think they're saving you.

(2). The other problem is that religious people can be more prone to go to extremes if they feel justified by their belief. This isn't to say that atheists can't be extremists, it's just that it's much easier to rationalize if you happen to believe that the most powerful entity in the universe is on your side. This is why you can have extremists on both sides, but it's hard to imagine an atheist strapping a bomb to their body to make a point (although I suppose it could happen).

As I said, these are hardly firm distinctions, but it seems that they appear more frequently when comparing religious individuals and atheists. It's also worth considering that many people claim to be religious but don't really seem to be committed to it. In those cases, they seem to follow their belief out of habit, or they're simply afraid to give it up. In my view, it's those people that represent the biggest problem, because they aren't religious enough to take the consequences of sin seriously, but they're just religious enough to believe that God can help them rationalize any extreme views. This is why some of the most vocal "religious" people tend to fight against issues that they are themselves guilty of.
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not so sure. People tell me I'm argumentative, but I beg to differ. All I know is it's bad luck to be superstitious
 
#22 ·
Well, I believe in God, Pierce, but the catch is this: I define God as whatever is responsible for the existence of the universe as I perceive it.

I don't know if that is a traditional creator God, aliens, cosmic accident, or any other possibility you can imagine. I've just come to use "God" as the catch-all term for all those things that cannot be known. So I believe in the unknown, and even most religious people agree that God is unknowable. So does that make me a believer or a non-believer? I believe I don't know the answer to that either. :)
 
#26 ·
IMO, the problem that "believers" tend to have is being so anthropomorphic. They either intentionally or non-intentionally want their "God" to be human-like and that could be emotionally, physically, have a conscious, etc. If it fills that void within those folks so be it. I just don't want to have to be looking over my shoulder for someone trying to dictate their beliefs onto my life or lifestyle.

For example:
Can't buy beer on Sunday before noon
Can't buy ANY liquor at all on Sunday.

I just wonder what the reaction would be like if we passed a law that NO ONE could attend church services of ANY type on any particular day of the week? [Sarcasm]
 
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