Kitchen and Clent from Hell

ouch :(

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

If I had a dollar for every dollar i lost from folks that didn’t pay I would have enough to take vacation. No matter how well I wrote a contract, the worse it got. Then I had a new way of working.

Say a job would bid at 10,000 dollars. I bid at 12,000 just to have a cushion. I then charge 50% down before I start building. (6000.00) then 25% when I am ready to install. this is now 9,000. the rest is due at delivery. If there is no BS from the client, I only charge them 1000 more to make it the real 10,000 and tell them that I came in under budget and refuse the rest of the money.

They tell 10 friends how honest I am and they promote me as the most amazing guy in town. If there is BS, I deduct it from the extra 2,000 and if they are real jerks, I keep it all. I may lose a few jobs for being a bit higher than I used to be, but at least i have a 20% cushion to play with.

-- making sawdust....

That hurts. Better luck next time.

-- Grumpy - "Always look on the bright side of life"- Monty Python

Wow, what an experience. That’s one of the things that makes being in buisiness for yourself so risky – people who won’t pay after the services are rendered. I feel for you.

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

Roman, that is one for the books! It always amazes me to watch people fret over paint chips that are nearly identical, when it is going to look somewhat different on the wall anyway.

Also, I used to work for a company that sold factory-made cabinets, and it was unbelievable how many people insisted on having us swap out doors because of grain variance, as if they wanted a kitchen that looked like formica or something!

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

It has been my experience that most folks are good people but we just cant win them all.

Motthunter

my policy is not much different then yours…..........this one got away on me

we live…...we learn

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Beautiful kitchen. I have learned to try and pick out this kind of client ahead of time and steer clear. My toughest client was the grumpy wife of a retired quality control supervisor (he must have learned from her). We all learn the hard way sometimes.

-- Ron, Twain Harte, Ca. Portable on site Sawmill Service http://westcoastlands.net/Sawmill.html http://westcoastlands.net/SawBucks2/phpBB3 http://www.portablesawmill.biz/concrete/

I feel for you!

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Yikes.

I’d be learning about alternative collection options…. within the law :)

Beautiful job Roman but that sure takes the edge off the satisfaction. Great trick with the color samples.

Did you ever tell them?

Cheers, Don.

-- Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker

Hi Roman;

I feel for you buddy. I would have run from this client and DESIGNER at the start. I don’t need the practice.

Having specialized in high end renovations for a quarter of a century, as well as a secondary company providing cabinets and furniture for these projects, I was reduced to babysitter on many occasions. It was a full time job hand holding with these clients, or at least the wife. It always amazed me that their door knob was more important than my very being, and it amazed them that I didn’t agree.

Most often the husband would go to work early and come home late. I can’t say I blame them for leaving early, but I always wondered why they ever came home. Generally these were nice guys when the “little women” wasn’t around, but when she was they did anything needed not to rile her. Fear would leak out of them.

I actually wasn’t paid the escrowed retainer fee of $64,000.00 on a project because I upset the wife, AFTER the project was completed. She called one morning a few weeks after the job was done, complaining I never came around anymore. I politely explained the project was complete, why would I keep coming by. She said, “so you were only in it for the money”? It took several months for me to collect most of the money, but never did get all of it.

After years of watching ladies like this I came to the conclusion that they are miserable because they serve no purpose in life, and they know it. Their life is meaningless from a productivity standpoint, so there is no feeling of accomplishment, or satisfaction. They keep buying more material items in the hope this would bring them happiness.

I had a lady insist to my laborers that the boss come down to the corner, where our dumpster was placed. I went to meet her, only to listen to her complaining about this unsightly dumpster, and insisting it be moved immediately.
After fending off her suggested locations, due to they were impossible based on the size of the dumpster. She eventually said something about having to walk her dog past here everyday and seeing this dumpster. At that point I asked her where she lived. (until that point I had assumed she lived in the building by the dumpster). She said she lived a couple blocks over, but walked past here everyday.

That’s when I not so politely told her to go get a job.

Unfortunately, by the time we learn all the things to watch out for, were too old to do the work anymore.

Good luck next time around.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

Don Kondra

No, I never told the designer, nor the client about the colour. I didnt see any gain in it. This wasnt the first time “designers” (and just a note…there are some good ones out there) looked at colour that was crap three days before only to be perfect at the moment.

Lee

I am quite blunt when it comes to money. Since then…...no money …..then me no show up. On the above project. It was one of ….in fact it was the only time I listened to my wife who begged me to finish. I wanted to walk from it months before the end. .......I do listen to my wife, I just dont do what she says <g>.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Roman I feel for you. Loose a little here but you make it up on volume right.

It’s a very nice kitchen. You did good.

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

Motthunter has a great suggestion and it has worked in the past for me, although we weren’t installing cabinetry and kitchens. My job for 15 years was subcontracting for many different telephone companies. Most of these GC’s were people who severely underbid a job just to get it, and it showed in the beginning when they couldn’t afford the 50% down, or wanted to keep a portion of my paycheck as a retainer. I never got those “retainers” back. One of those was for $2600.00 from a one time good friend of mine. I still have a photo of him standing as an usher in our wedding party. Some friend huh? Many of them also had these 25-30 page “contracts” for you to sign. Just another way to rip you off. I’ve actually placed bids on a napkin before. When it’s signed, it’s a contract. 25 pages is a coverup. You need to read them all before you sign.

Ya gotta protect yourself out there. People are freakin’ weird when it comes to saving a buck. Some are just too anal for their own good and complain about everything. That’s what lawyers are for. If someone wants to “hold a retainer” that’s fine, as long as it’s in escrow. When they won’t do that, then it’s a positive indicator that you’re not gonna see it either.

Hey, I’m sorry for venting myself here. I’m not in the contracting line of work anymore. Today I’m a nurse…so I’m still involved heavily in the “psyche” of it all!

People. Ya gotta deal with them no matter where you go.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Roman;

My wife has a tendency to tell me how to “do it” also. I don’t take kindly to that, since I’m the one with the experience, but sometimes I go against my better judgment and do what she suggests. And usually I regret it!

Reminds me of a sub contractor on a large project.(at least for me) The sub and I agreed on the price and the payment schedule, based on progress.

That night his wife called me to say “we don’t work like this, blah, blah, blah”. I told her not to call me again, and hung up.

The next morning when the sub arrived I told him if his wife ever calls me again, I’ll throw him off the job so fast his head will spin. And he’ll never see another dime of his money.

She didn’t call anymore.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

Lee

I have five bathrooms in my house. She decided to paint the only one that didnt need painting. What a debacle that turned into.

Nothing will test the strength of a marriage more then putting the cover on a pool together at the end of the season.

She bet me 1/2” the cost of our boat, that the laundry cabinets I made for this project wouldnt fit into the room. To date and after 25 years of this trade I have not yet had one cabinet that didnt fit through all doors…...touch wood. On another note, same project, the bride of the client on this project screamed at me over the phone that she couldnt possibly enjoy her summer at the cottage with four boys and only three bathrooms amogst them and that she simplymust have her next bathroom vanity immediatly ( my first thought was that I grew up in a place where seven kids got along just fine with an outhouse).

I had the vanity couriered up and then floated to the island on a barge only to show up 4 days later to see that such urgency and such expense led to the all wood, custom coloured vanity and wooden top that was wrapped in cardboard followed by stretch wrap sitting in the rain for 4 solid days….........and somehow I expected to hear that it was all my fault.

For every job gone sour, at least a dozen went well.

My fav., gone bad, turned out good went something like this.

A rather big kitchen, over the 100,000 dollar mark. Lots of curves and accesories and made from curly english sycamore veneers with black walnut highlights and installed in a mansion on the water. Not one single trade got paid in full, most of the time the cabinet guys are the last ones in and the last ones out. our “holdback” was about 17 grand. She refused to to pay it as it was her “opinion” that the finish was faulty.

I paid a visit to the site and she showed me all the streaks on the finish. The whole time she is talking he is also obsessivly and compulsively applying hand cream to her hands and then rubbing the cabinets. I said nothing. I offered to take a door off, take it back to the shop and see what could be done to fix the finish. Taking one of the curved doors back I waited for her phone call. Bare in mind that the whole kitchen is made from a large flitch and all doors are in sequence.

She phones and I tell her that there is nothing wrong with the finish, that in fact the streaks are hand cream from her hands and that mineral spirits will work to clean them up….......she EXPLODES…....I hang up.

She phones back, she EXPLODES…........I hang up

repeat several times.

Her secretary phones me and I can hear her exploding in the back ground. I politely tell her secretary that if she doesnt want to speak to me personally, then I dont want to speak to her either and hang up.

She phones back and firmly demands that I drop her door off because she is having a party. I explain that I need a certified cheque before I drop the door off…...she explodes…...I hang up.

She phones back and says she doesnt have the time to get a certified cheque. I explain that I dont have the time to drive for three hours to drop her door off without a cheque….........she explodes….. I hang up.

She phones back and says that my certified cheque will be waiting….....I thank her.

We were th only trade to be paid in full.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

our society has developed into one where many people try to get the upper hand and get something for nothing, through the use of a variety of tactics. We want to be discovered and be a rich super star over night, we want to pick the winning ticket and be an instant millionaire, we want to be the lucky person who slips on the ice in front of your home/business so we can sue the pants off you and walk away laughing that we outsmarted you, we want to be the one who finds an unknown object in our food so we can get a year’s supply of free stuff as an apology.

William Glasser’s “Choice Theory” states that everything we do is motivated by something and these motivators can be put into 5 categories: survival, power and control (seen above in many examples), love and belonging (a big one in my line of work), freedom, and fun.
When we bring our childhood wounds along with us as we stumble through life we fight to overcome by taking back control however we can get it (if we felt that we had no control in our life) or we do anything to feel loved (if that is our missing link).
It is fascinating to see people trying to find the answers to their lives but keep digging themselves down deeper..and it is sad and frustrating (even infuriating) to see the negative impact their choices have on others who have to bear the burden of the ill-chosen actions.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Roman, you mentioned the word “designer” as the intermediary that your job had to go through to be approved. my experience with “designers” has not be all that rewarding unless they have earned actual credentials from an accredited training facility.

Seems like almost anybody can become a “designer” today and have not a lick of training in size, proportions, fabrication, color coordination or the Munsell wheel.

That leaves the poor contractor trying to second guess a person who is bluffing their way through life .

As happened here it can be costly.

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Well said MsDebbieP

It is my belief that every one has a personal and hidden agenda, be it good or bad. wether they try and control you or themselves through silent manipulation or downright abuse….....its always there.

the saying that “misery loves company” is very true. If some folks feel bad about themselves they will try and manipulate another person so that too feel bad. Most often our own worst enemy is our own tongue. My own has been known to blurt out something that might been deemed evil.

between the top mentioned project and other events in my life, right after that project was done I looked at my life and changed it. I got rid of the lease for my shop, closed it down. sold the house I lived in and bought a small hobby farm and built my own shop. Employees are long gone. I wake, I have a coffee and listen to the song birds, I take my dogs for a walk, fill the bird feeders, feed the chickens, collect the eggs. I spend more time watching kids play and laugh. In the spring and summer I stop, lean down and smell the flowers. The things I love the most, are free?

Despite all this I still experience the betrayel of false friends knowing that the colmination of all my experiences, good and bad, make me what I am, with all my faults. I rarely blame any one for any of my problems knowing that I have no one to blame but myself. I have forgiven all my enemies (both sehctib <g>). I know that the only person I have to really like is the one that looks back at me in the mirror.

I am a lucky and fortunate man. My home is warm, there is food in the fridge and if I dropped a quarter down a gopher hole, I am not embarressed to dig the next grand canyon trying to get it out. We judge people wether we like it or not and all too often our judgements are too quick, failing to walk in their shoes.

I accept the fact that my passion for wood working isnt the same as most, I accept that I have to work, that I am a workaholic (because I know that if I didnt work I might just drink myself to death <vbg>).

Sadly, by the time we know enough to pass our knowledge and wisdom on, it is also time to say good by.

I would like to think, that when I close my eyes for the last time, that I will know that I have made a difference in this world. That just maybe….........I left it a better place then when I got here.

nuff said

cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

I just finished a job where the architect was an idiot. I had to redesign the cabinetry so it could work and the super told me he could have built the building three ways from the plans. One of the owners wanted to make sure she(the architect) was invited to see what she had “designed’. These people continue to get away with it because no one tells them. On the other hand the owners paid with in minutes of completion. Great folks. Like motthunter, I screen pretty tight before I take a job. It is 50 % upfront and balance on completion, no exceptions. Not even for good friends. I also make them settle on colors and finish upfront. By the time we are through the design process, I have a pretty good feel for the client. At that point it is sometimes best to dump it and swallow the design.

-- Thos. Angle

Bob #2

I have met a few designers who were really, really good at. Over the years they have taught me quite a bit. The best thing about a good designer is that they can bring you “work”. Surprisingly I like to consider myself a designer?......albeit I am not certified.

That said…............some of them give me the willies, I might have the time to deal with them but often I dont have the patience. pencil sketches which dont read a thing, hard to read whats in their mind especially when there might not be anything in there ?. They show a paint chip but the colour match some how doesnt work, re-do the colour testing the vescocity, straining the lacquer, add a little burnt umber, a little lamp black, a little raw sienna…...........my my my my my….......this could go on forever. Oh, what do you mean this valance needs a hidden light in it with secret latches….............oh and look, now that I’ve built that at no extra cost the light was never installed and no one noticed…...............oh the drama

Some people just have a natural propensity towards good solid design…..........and to those folks, my hat is off to them. I suppose that every one was good at it….........I might not have a job?

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Thos. Angle

some architects are legends in their own minds, others are truly legends.

Regards

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

This is a “sad” but hilarious project discussion.

It’s amazing also from the other side how things are also done. I just recently bought a new construction house. We walked through the house 1 hour prior to closing. We had noted many things two weeks before that were fixed, but a couple of things we noticed only an hour before. Well, the company did their best to fix the items and overall nothing was too major. Later after closing, we went back to the house to make sure everything was repaired. (Oh and of course, the builder wasn’t present at closing which should be illegal in my opinion). Most of the items were repaired, but the wall paint splatter on the wood was still present along with the unlacquered stair post not being lacquered to match the rest of the staircase. Not a big deal to us (since I plan on replacing it in the near future anyway), but we put it on our 120-day inspection. Turns out, we find out that the subcontractors are leaving imperfections and purposely not fixing certain things so they can come back later and charge the builder with another fee and make more money. The builder is mad because they have to pay to get it fixed and sometimes refuse, but they were the ones that didn’t check our list before they let the subcontractor go. So even though, I’m the one that is complaining and the builder is mad. It’s the subcontractor that makes out in the end.

p.s. most of complaints were not wood grains or colors, etc. this was wall paint splatter on our hardwood floors or cracks in the paint where seams usually form or drywall screws popping out of the drywall. Or in the case of the bathroom, our vanity was slammed into the walls hard enough to break the drywall and ruin the waterproof paper and they only spackled it over.

Yikes! I suppose working with “high maintenance” people comes with the big $$ projects, but you think these people only exist in movies and the occasional newspaper story. Not trying to be sexist since I’ve known a number of executive jerk men over the years, but these women who never had to work a day in their lives and were married for their looks amaze me. Their lives are so meaningless they badger actual hard-working people over non-issues just to exert their power. Like having a few million bucks makes them a better person or the like.

As for losing 50G on this, I hope you mean in time and labor? I assume you got enough up front to hopefully at least cover the material costs. Otherwise, those cabinets would have been coming with me on the way out the door!

-- You're a unique and special person, just like everyone else.

Most of the afluent folk I work for are very nice people. Most of them, you couldnt tell the difference between them and your average factory worker.

The job is water under the bridge.

As for being sexist. That wasnt my intent. I have met an equall amount of people from every faith, every skin colour, every age every finacial background, and both genders to maintain my faith in humanity coupled with a certain degree of caution!

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Back to the telephone thing (there was a wooden pole involved so this kinda still …Oh, you know.) Anyhow, we had a GC who reneiged on our paychecks. I let him know that my crew (I was the project foreman on this job) wasn’t happy with this, and that they too had families to support…and that some people, when not paid, tend to take their work back. A couple of days went by, still no paychecks. So, I went to a project where we were wrecking cable and took a splice out of a chunk of scrap. Then I laid this on his desk. (I really wish I had a camera to photo the look of shock on his face!) He asked if it came from one of the jobs and I told him “No”, but the next one will. We all got paid the next day, and he never reneiged with my crew again.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Back when I worked construction, I worked for a company building high end designer homes. One of the homes was designed with an upstairs bathroom that was part of a 20 ft. cathedral ceiling. So here the bathroom ceiling’s went from about 12 ft on one wall down to 4 ft on the other wall. Guess where the tub and shower were. Yup, on the 4 ft wall side, so the way the architect had us fix it was to put in a sky light where the shower was so the persons head would actually be sticking out of the roof while taking a shower. So it’s not just designers that have a screw loose. True story, I swear. It always seemed to me that the richest people were the tightest and hardest to get our money out of. Just an observation. mike

-- Mike. mwurm13@yahoo.com

I’ll build my own Kitchen Cabinets thanks you.

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

my sentiments exactly Karson

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

That sucks, Roman. A partner of my Dad’s told me, on my first day of work, “Get clear of the ones that are a bad outcome starring you in the face. You’ll know who they are.”

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

First class.

-- Jiri

splendid work a very beautiful design

-- jeanmarc manosque france

If you want ot see the effectos money gone mad the visitet Winchest house in So California.
The woman was complete nut case but loaded. Here’s what she did until she died:
Winchester Mystery House continued . . .
The following are some amazing facts about the Winchester Mystery House.

Amazing Facts:

Number of rooms: 160

Cost: $5,500,000

Date of Construction: 1884 – September 5, 1922 (38 continuous years!)

Number of stories: Prior to 1906 Earthquake – 7; presently 4

Number of acres: Originally 161.919; presently 4

Number of basements: 2

Heating: Steam, forced air, fireplaces

Number of windows: Frames 1,257; panes approx. 10,000

Number of doors: Doorways 467, doors approx. 950 not including cabinet doors.

Number of fireplaces: 47 (gas, wood, or coal burning)

Number of chimneys: Presently 17 with evidence of 2 others

Number of cars at her death: 2 (a 1917 Pierce Arrow Limousine & a 1916 4 cyl. Buick truck)

Number of bedrooms: Approx. 40

Number of kitchens: 5 or 6

Number of staircases: 40, total of stair steps – 367

Number of skylights: Approx. 52

Number of gallons of paint required to paint entire home: Over 20,000

Number of ballrooms: 2 (one nearly complete, and one under construction)

Blueprints available: No, Mrs. Winchester never had a master set of blueprints, but did sketch out individual rooms on paper and even tablecloths!

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I work with a couple of contractors who have a great system for collections. One is an a/c guy the other a general contractor. If the customer doesnt’ pay they will go back and remove whatever it is they have installed. I’ve watched the a/c guy remove the outside units from a house when it’s over 100 degrees. I’ve watched the GC start removing a roof or take a crowbar and start pulling cabinets from the wall.

It’s amazing how fast the check book comes out.

Roman that’s a beautiful kitchen and it just goes to show that sometimes too much money can really screw with your head. Sounds like she needs a lot more common sense.

-- Joey, Magee, Ms http://woodnwaresms.com

I had a guy tell me the other day when he received my bill, that the crew wasn’t on the job long enough. He felt I was charging too much and he wasn’t going to pay the full amount. No problem with the work, says he checked with other contractors and they would charge less so thats what he will pay. He also said that he is retired and I could take him to court, that he has the time to wait and fight in front of a judge. It’s a small amount however 25% of the total. It would cost more to go to court and the time lost there I could be making up the money on another job. He knows this as he is a retired contractor and I bet has done this before. Thanks for starting this post, this just happened and I needed to vent to people who know. I like the why you handle things and reading all the other post.

Ron

-- Ron Central, CA

Wow, Ouch, Holy cr__, and God Bless You.

-- Michael A. Brailsford

Nice kitchen!

-- CJIII Future cabinetmaker

I’ve been there. I now ask for 50% up front and payments along the way buy the time the finish works to be done the usually only owe 5% of the Job.50% to start 25% when cabinets are delivered 20% when hung,5%on completion

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop, custom furniture maker, woodworking school, heirloomwoodshop.com

When I was a sound engineer, I got this all the time!

A manager or agent would make a comment about the mix, I’d move a knob that did nothing, and they’d say “better”! I made a career out of talking up the “band wives” and agents about how good the show sounded.

Cash the check, relax, and move on… It’s not worth getting your pee-pee hot over.

I loved the description of the 12×96 MDF slab being cut up as samples. That’s so true!

-- - Please help keep Lumberjocks an enjoyable escape by refusing to participate in political discussions. Simply spit out the bait and ignore the thread...

Wow. Nice Kitchen. Can I get you do my kitchen for almost free! :)

Thats the beauty of the human race. Uniqueness. Heck if these folks never appeared we might not fully appreciate the nice clients. In my business I essentially run a help desk environment. A complaint dept of sorts. Some folks are just down right nasty. The patient ones make my day. I let the nice ones know that I appreciate their kindness and good hearts. The nasty ones I just feel sorry for. How empty must a life be to get wrapped around the axle about inanimate objects. Its all going to burn anyway. Our talents we have to earn our living are usually how we get exposure to people. It’s how we deal with these people that really is our meaningful leagcy in life, not what we make with our hands. kudos to you for not doing what for me would come naturally. Raking her over the coals and walking.
I do like Jims method. 50% up front and regular installements along the way. Wise advice

-- Phil 4:13------Our family motto