Blotch Control (Homemade) Water Base Pre-Stain Conditioner
I have been working on a project in Cherry and before I finished the desks I decided to try out some of the General Finishes Dye stain but on the scrap test pieces the blotching was driving me nuts. I came to this site and tried all the suggestions until I came across the discussion proclaiming that Charles Neil's pre stain conditioner was the way to go. Bought some, tried it and still had minor blotching but it works well.
Watching his video he said it was a water based PVA enhanced product and doing some searching here and there I found that diluted PVA white glue has been used for years to control blotching. I just couldn't leave it alone so I started experimenting and I have come up with an alternative using Gorilla White Wood glue which I think is a polyvinyl alcohol glue and not very expensive ($5.97 for 18 oz shipped free to house from Home Depot).
I took 5 oz of the Gorilla White Wood Glue and mixed it with 36 oz of water and then added 2 oz of General Finishes natural water based stain. I then mainly followed the application directions for the Charles Neil blotch control only with my mix and the results were very close to the same.
After sanding with 220 use two coats pre stain conditioner as follows: Apply wet coat of pre stain conditioner (allowing short time for softwood to absorb mix) then wipe excess lightly with a dampened rag of pre stain conditioner with grain (allow coat to dry fully 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity) and sand lightly with ROS machine 220 then by hand with 220 following grain between and after 2nd coat. Hand sand with 320 along grain as a final buff before applying stain. Brush on waterborne dye stain with foam brush letting set for short time so that it bites into pre stain conditioner wiping excess off lightly with clean rag along grain without putting too much pressure on surface of wood so as not to break through the pre stain conditioner.
After dye stain has dried (minimum 2-4 hours depending on temp and humidity), apply spray with ½ lb cut to ¾ lb cut dewaxed shellac, two coats sanding (lightly with 220 ROS and hand 320 along grain) between coats not breaking through shellac into color.
Apply by spray thinned finish coat over everything and let dry then hand sand lightly with 320 or 400 and apply multiple full finish coats drying and sanding between coats.
How did the look, consistency and viscosity compare to the Charles Neil blotch control?
And can we see pics of the finished product?
very interesting, very interesting !
Viscosity was about the same as best I could tell. Watery and milky color in container. When it dried it was as transparent as Neil's. Also the clarity of grain etc was about the same.
I also tried it on poplar and swear that it made it look like Cherry, blocking out the white and off shade green in the poplar but yet showed the grain. The only thing is his in the jar has an oily funny smell and my mix has none of that.
I'll try to get some pictures of the samples I did with both in the AM.
Here is the best I could do for a picture. Mine is on left and Neils on right. Minor blotching on both but way better than without. Also, both samples were better than using a cut Shellac sealer coat. I am however, on the final project, going to reduce the color so it comes out lighter than the test pieces. Used the dark color to see what the worst possible results would be as far as blotching and hiding the figure of the wood. The picture really does not do either justice.
Ok Im confused
Correct me if im wrong
You said you use the wood glue, water, and the water stain mixed together
before applying the charlie neil pre-conditioner and wood glue/stain mix, you sanded the wood with 220 grit.
Apply it on the wood, then wiped excess off?
My mix is 5 oz of the Gorilla White Wood Glue and mixed it with 36 oz of water and then added 2 oz of General Finishes natural water based stain.
I applied my mix to the wood let it dry, sanded, another coat of my mix, sanded, then dyed color. If you watched Charles Neils video it is the same process steps. I did not put his product over my mix.
Pictures above, left using my mix on cherry and right his mix used on cherry. Only the application steps were the same.
Now I'm confused due to your comment. My mix is Gorilla White Wood Glue (PVA glue), water and a very small amount of natural water based stain (not dye stain) all mixed together. The natural water based stain (not dye stain) added in my mix added some sort of component to the mix that seemed to boost anti blotching.
Why did you mix the PVA glue with the stain? Is this better way than applying the pva on wood first, then stain. Or is it faster?"
Reply:
The stain added some chemical component to the mix, maybe their "Proprietary Acrylic polymer" which reduced more of the blotching ever so slightly. I have no idea what the Acrylic polymer is or how it reinforced the mix, but it did or it appeared to do so.
I believe Acrylic polymer is the stain binder. From some research I've found out that painting artist use it for glaze, mix with paints, or protective coat.
Yes that is the General stain used. It was the only product I had on hand at the time that was neutral in color so that's what was used. I suppose there are much cheaper alternative to gain the properties of the acrylic polymers.
If we go back and look at the page you refered to in Wikipedia for Polyvinyl Alcohol it discribes it as "a water-soluble synthetic polymer (not to be confused with polyvinyl acetate, a popular wood glue)."
Further " Polyvinyl alcohol has excellent film forming, emulsifying, and adhesive properties ", which indicates that in of itself is an adhesive which mixes well with other compounds.
However, the MSDS sheet lists Alcohol Ester Polymer which may in fact not just be Polyvinyl Alcohol, I don't know and again I'm not a chemist.
The long and the short of it is, try it, see if it works for you, it's an alternative.
Now to answer your question, no I have not tried other brands with exception of Franklin Hide because it does not have the white color which may or may not cloud the wood figure. Anyway, I am still playing with it and can't say if there will be any positive results.
It may seem to some it is a waste of time, but, I find it interesting.
I'm testing out your recipe on a poplar sliding door at the moment. Have you had a chance to work with this mix anymore? Any additional findings? Would love to hear about your results
I've been doing research into glue sizing, sounds like a fairly tried and tested method for blotch control, it's been used for hundreds of years - perhaps the reason for Neil's successful product.
I went to Lee Valley to pick up the general finishes clear stain, they don't carry it any more, atleast not at my branch. Had to go with the Minwax version…we'll see how it turns out. Testing the stain tonight
I have not done much with the mix since I finished the desk. I have been reading a number of articles by Kevin Southwick and others available through the blogs and online extra type of places from American Woodworker. I have posted a couple of links in finishing tip #4 blog which pertains to oak and another in general how to control blotching. There are many articles written by Kevin Southwick in American woodworking past issues one is in October/November 2010, issue #150 as to how to Make Poplar Look Pretty and he offers another way to get even colorations.
The last process I have tried was wet on wet applications of a thinned down Bartley gel varnish promptly wiped off then a coat of a Bartley gel stain over that. The thinned down gel varnish filled the pores and the gel stain over coat was somewhat lighter but blotching was reduced substantially. The process is covered in the video linked in my finishing tip #4 blog at the bottom. It's works very well without much effort.
No matter who you talk with they have a favorite way that works for them but I am stubborn enough to want to try many methods to see which one works the best for my particular application. I have yet to find the magic bullet of stain/blotch control; however, some methods are better than others. Use up a lot of scrap before it hits the wood stove testing methods. One thing I can say is I do not like shellac as a blotch control and maybe that's because the fumes make me ill.
I've tried out the stain with your recipe on a test piece, and I'm liking the results. I think I'll go ahead and do the whole door.
wet on wet is tough when you are working on a large piece (the door is 40"x86" w/ 5 glass panels w/ trim surrounds, etc.) and water based dries quick. I'm in Ontario, so I have to do this one inside this time of year, and I don't want to go with a oil based, stink up the house. I like how the glue size can dry before doing the stain, it gives you some time to work.
New to the wood world and am trying many suggestions. The worst for me so far has been the gorilla glue mixture. What a foamy, sticky mess and a waste of money ($30.00 experiment cost). Ugghhh. So far Charles Neil is winning by far.
There is a Gorilla Wood Glue. The one you used is activated by moisture and used for a different purpose. Make sure the glue is a PVA (polyvinyl acetate) type.
I know lots of folks try and duplicate things that work or we like.for example: "how to make an In-N-Out Burger" If you have every tried it the burger turned out pretty good ,but still no cigar,the real thing is just impossible to beat. I don't know about others but as for me I think I'll stick with Charles real thing,he has already spent hours and hours perfecting his blotch control and knows about how it works and the longevity of his product.
If we spend 80% of what it cost to buy Charles Blotch control on material to make our own blotch control and then the finish fails,flakes or loses adhesion on a project that you spent weeks or months making do we really win ?
Personally I am not convinced that Charles Neils product is any better or worse. It comes down to economics and perceived performance because others tout a product.
The PVA idea has been around for years and it works. I will stick with my mixture as I personally saw no difference.
By the way, $5.97 for 18 oz of the Gorilla Wood Glue will make a heck of alot of Blotch Control which is far from 80%. Again I say, Perceived Performance because others tout a product and are fooled by fear and alleged claims of superiority. Give us all a break.
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