Advertising Policy - What's Crossing The Line?

I have no problem with people advertising their business via their LumberJocks home page introduction or via their signature line. I think it would be crossing the line to offer some sort of product or service via a blog entry or forum post, with the exception of “For Sale” stuff. Even “For Sale” items, in my opinion, should be used items.

Take, for example, a wooden plane maker. I’d say let him post his website URL and a little about his business on his home page. Let him post pictures of planes he’s making and let him say that these are ones he’s making for his business. There – he’s talking about woodworking (the whole point of us being here) and if someone wants to buy it, they know where to go to ask!

It’s late and I’m rambling. Next comment!

-- Eric at http://adventuresinwoodworking.com

I believe that having the ability to put your web site address on your LJ home page and in your signature line is enough!!!!! If an individual sees that you have a web site and they like what you have posted on this site then they will go to your web site and you can conduct your business there.

I agree with Eric that the intended purpose of this site was for talking about woodworking not selling any type of product. I think that placing items for sale, be it your woodworking product or woodworking, should be done on the individuals web site. If it is old tools then there is a forum for that.

As Martin states the individuals and companies pay to advertise on this site and it is not fair to them to have individuals get there advertising for free no matter what they are trying to sell.

-- Max "Desperado", Salt Lake City, UT

I’m very skeptical about the prospects of woodworkers selling to other woodworkers. I would guess that 90%+ of the folks on this site would make a copy of something they’ve seen, rather than buy it.
Originally I joined the site, mainly to post my web address on my home page. I’m satisfied with the traffic I get from here as a link. That helps move my site up in the search engines. (at least that’s the way it used to work)
Personally, I don’t care to read about items for sale on Lumber Jocks. If someone mentions in posting that they built or made the item for a client, that’s ok. We can tell the pros by their web address. If I see something interesting, I will go to their site.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

Let me start by saying that I am a novice as to what is feasible in this cyberworld.

Maybe a link to a separate Lumberjock Marketplace or Mall could be instituted for Lumberjocks to sell what they make to the public.
A classified type ad with photos, to run for, say, 30 days for a set posting fee. Or maybe an “etsy” type thing where Lumberjocks gets a percentage of the transaction, 3 or 4%. Or a combination of both. Then limit the free advertising in the member’s pages to their website link on their homepage and their comment signature, like I have.

This would generate revenue for Lumberjocks and if marketed toward non-members, would increase the interest in this great site.

I think that the “Woodwork trade & Swap” forum is sufficient for Lumberjock to Lumberjock transactions.

-- http://dustynewt.com

if it was all for sale…..........I doubt I would ever drop in to look at this site.

a seperate catagory with ‘used tools for sale”..........cool by me

but free “look what I’m selling”...........nonsense, thats why “e-bay” is there

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Martin Thanks for the prod for active communication on what where when and hows of control and usage of advertisements on Lumberjocks . ...
Tho I am new to Lumberjocks and already very addicted to the site I think I can
objectively see where this is leading ….
I am over 21 and free and definitely see change is in the air …

It seems if i am reading this correctly ..The points to consider are …

1. Too many members are labeling their work “for sale”
2. “REAL” companies are paying money to advertise their products.
3. Where should Lumberjocks loyaltys lie ? a.) Regular Joe Woodworker lucky to have a garage shop.
or b.) “REAL BIG TIME COMPANY ADVERTISERS” paying for space to sell.

Todays world already is changing faster than the speed of light.

I want to stay as we are …..BUT i know that aint gonna happen.
It seems we cant stay as we are because it is the “Regular Joe Woodworker” wanting to sell a piece here and there that is forcing this change.
I do applaud Martin for the intelligent sharing of the possibility for LJ members to have a say in the shaping of the future look, feel, and growth (tho change is not always growth ) of this terrific site …

Yer right ..I have no idea what to do ….

If we can keep a separation of “Joe Woodworker ” and “REAL BIG TIME COMPANY ADVERTISERS” I think that should be a big part of the focus of this forum ….

I am not going to sell any of my work ….I touch wood cause it is beautiful and am on this site cause of what i can learn and what i can see others doing …
But I do have subscriptions to a lot of the mainstream mags an have seen just about every ad possible. I went to the Wood Workers Show and spent my $200.00
I may or may not purchase a piece from a member ….that is not my main reason for being here on LJ…
I dont know the answers …but i do know …I would hate to see Lumberjocks become so polluted with advertisements that “REGULAR Joe WoodWorker” is squeezed to make way for the BIG GUYS…
I guess maybe i should go and read the original LJ policies and see if any trends are apparent .
Come on guys …what do you think …
Thanks fa lettin me be myself again ..and remember we are lucky to be in a country where we can voice our opinion on any and every subject before the big guys go and do what they were gonna do in the first place.
thanks Martin …..you have some great ideas and suggestions to ponder ..

-- Mike in Bonney Lake " If you are real real real good your whole life, You 'll be buried in a curly maple coffin when you die."

Martin,

The reason I come to this site is to learn and talk with woodworkers that are better then me.

That being said I know that in order to maintain a site like this and keep it free for us you have to have advertising, and you have done a very good job thus far of keeping the advertising classy, pertinent to the site content and visible but not overbearing and in your face.

To maintain the quality of the current site I think a fellow jock should be aloud to have his business website on his homepage, possible have one – two blog entrees talking about it, and then have a “tag line” in his signature. Anything outside of that should be moved to a “pro’s” section and if you want to encourage the selling of products that it should be done through a “lumberjocks store”. I don’t think the two should be mixed, this should continue to be a community for people to share knowledge and experiences.

I think if you have designed and built something and you would like to blog about it, you should blog about how you designed and built it so that others here can learn from it, that’s what this site is for in my opinion.
If you are also selling the item that is fine to0 .. but the blog entree should not be a “sales pitch” it should be an entree on what the item is and how to build one.

-- David - Houston, Texas.

I like things the way they are too…. I make stuff for sale, but I only mention this fact one time in my profile… and if it is not for sale it is marked ( NFS) in the title discription. When I first came to LJ I started with a couple of pieces putting prices on them … simply (because I was allowed). Email started coming out as being offended with this procedure. Seeing what was happening with the JOCKS, (not liking it) I didn’t even hesitate, and I went back and removed the prices with out even going to Martin. One thing I like about the site is that I can show the high quality items that I probably would never sell. It shows what I can REALLY do. I totally agree with the new rules of personal attacks on individuals. Many of you know that I was a victim of this… (fowl language and all) . It happened more than once. The person was warned and the emails removed. Some one else must have reported it to Martin….. and soooo A BIG THANK YOU MARTIN. I came very close to dropping out of L J. ...but a couple of Buddies kept me going.

I would like to see advertisers (tools and the likes) but in it’s own place. YELLOW PAGES would be nice.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME…...DAVE
PS. This is not a sales pitch.

-- Dave Leitem,Butler,Pa.,http://dlcarver.etsy.com

As a follow up to my previous post,

I would be ok with an advertising program where-in if a company purchases advertising through lumberjocks they get a banner on the side like they do now but they would also be aloud to post One blog series talking about their products and/or services. Seems like this may already be “un-officially” in place with example to the ezee-feed system.

-- David - Houston, Texas.

It seems to me, that if you’re a pro and have a website, then the assumption is what you make is for sale. Those things that are not for sale would be the exception. Marking projects “For Sale” looks a lot like advertising and as such should be paid for like the banner advertisers. To my way of thinking, Odie’s “Shameless Plug” is not using LumberJocks to advertise his products, but to promote his website. I’m okay with that, especially since his project posts share more than mere product description.

My understanding was that this site was intended to allow woodworkers to talk amongst themselves, share information, and show off their work. Lee talking about his latest business venture was much more sharing an experience than selling a product. And, when it came time to sell his product, he put his money in and bought ad space. That’s the way to do it from my perspective.

The guy who joins your book club just to sell reading glasses can be really annoying. I think each of us knows when we’re sharing our experiences and when we’re advertising, and I’d like to think that a certain amount of honor would come into play now that the issue has been raised.

I’m all for some sort of identification for the pros so that they can use LumberJocks as an extension of the websites, but I’m not sure of the best way to accomplish that. I have no ideas, but not to worry, I will have opinions.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

I would hate to see the projects area turn into a storefront, I think there should be a separate storefront area for folks wanting to sell their wares.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

The pains of growing beyond a small community. Kind of makes me glad I’ve decided NOT to sell anything…I just give it all away. More fun to get paid in thanks anyway.

Take the posts above, add a favorite allcoholic beverage, some ice, shake well…..pour into a glass and drink. See what wisdom rises to to the top. I think you already know the answers Martin. You’ve done an extraordinary job creating a civil forum. I’d like to see you maintain the civility and the informality while also securing your financial future. A mix of pro/advertiser areas…while maintaining the next door neighbor appeal. Not an easy task but then I can’t think of anyone better suited to pulling it off.

Best of luck….if nothing else this should be an interesting experiment.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

Oops..posted twice

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

I wonder if there would be a non-intrusive way to tag an item as “for sale” and then in our LJ Stores, we’d have the merchandise store, the apparel store, and the woodworking stores.. so if a potential buyer ends up at LJ they can scan all of the woodworking items marked “for sale” and connects the reader to the member’s profile page and because it has been tagged non-intrusively it won’t be a nuisance to the members who are here to chat/learn/share.

Martin, your “premium membership” I think solves a lot of these problems. Trying to meet everyone’s needs as well as your own is a really difficult task. But I have confidence that you will, as always, come up with a plan that is fair and respectful to the members. And, because you treat the members here with such respect I know they/we will respect your decision once you have determined you plan.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Martin has clearly defined the issues, concerns and ultimately the dilemma.

In my opinion, all of the above posts have great validity. However, in my experience, self-policing becomes self-defeating . . . unless clear and well thought out rules exist and are applied.

It is my life’s business understanding media (electronic, print and broadcast) and associating that with human behavior for both, business 2 business, and business 2 consumer marketing. It is a science not an art. When it comes to the internet, it is definitive in nature.

I will offer this:

The Evolution: A small community becomes a metropolitan city. You will acquire the “hawkers and gawkers”. You WILL loose the ambiance of community life. It takes time, but the internet accelerates this process. The “city square” is replaced with Times Square. Membership that found sitting on the front porch swing and talking with the neighbors is now confronted with big city life. Loud speeding automobiles and trucks drown out talking over the fence to the neighbors. Every Tom, Dick and Jane that has a pod cast, that no one listens to, will now be advertised on their LJ postings, eBay stores will be highlighted and more.

You will continually point and click until you eventually find the Gary K advice, the MsDebbie humor, or the Odie wisdom. YOU will become frustrated and spend less and less time on this site. The less time people spend will further deteriorate the culture.

The Guarantee: Neighborhoods turn into things like SoHo, Tribecca, and the Upper West Side. Eventually, neighbors leave for quieter and friendlier surroundings. What is the current LJ culture will be replaced – This you can take to the bank – Unless zoning safeguards are established. Every community has zoning and bulding codes.

The Big Fish in the current LJ pond WILL become the small fish in an ocean of other sea life! The advice we could see and achieve will be in a maze between for sale signs; and click here to learn more – only to be confronted with a blatant plug. Hey, I am NOT talking about posting your website in your profile, which is great and informative, I am NOT talking about having a tool for sale or adding a comment to your profile——These are community not commercial.

Nevertheless, consider the future if this community becomes entrenched with projects for sale or barefaced postings to hawk goods or services. “Where do YOU draw the line”?

Possibly as Martin alludes to, it would be worthwhile having a separate tab for those “professionals” looking to sell their product or service. In my opinion without question those people should pay a “commercial fee, and NOT be allowed to apply their selling techniques to the current forums.

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

Many of the posts here make very sound points. I have been on the web for well over 12 years now and BBS’s before. I come here to enjoy mine and other peoples success stories as well as how tos/garner ideas/no too’s etc. I am very fine with people telling their stories and posting projects. However I would prefer not to have bell ringers / hawkers / shills on every page trying to sell product. Alas the web makes this difficult and we have to all get along. I see the Pro membership being a good path for what we need. MsDeb’s idea for a Virtual Co-Op (that is how I see it, this might be a wrong or right perception on my part) is very interesting and might be a good thing for another sister site..TheLumberJocksCoOp…could potentially solve the problem nicely. With a small bit of the commission coming back to the site. I hope my two cents help.

-- //FC - Round Rock, TX - "Experience is what you get just after you need it"

You want to know what I like? I like seeing all the fine hand made projects posted here. I like the idea that I can contact the maker for advice and use this advice to learn. I like the F.Y.I. links that show us some of these strange Ebay items (like the steam generated shop model recently blogged). I like the jokes and occasional cartoons in the Coffee Shop. I really like being able to click on someone’s link to their store, and seeing what else they have done. I like the idea of being able to post old tools, sandpaper, mesquite lumber, etc. for sale, or for free, by the members. I think it would be a great idea to put up a tab just for this purpose. And I like the fact that I can talk, one on one, to the owner of this site.

We’re family here.

But I don’t want to see the spammers.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Ditto, Dadoo

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

Like so many of these posts, I don’t have a problem with a link to a fellow Jock’s website/business. If they have a product I want, I can purchase it there.

As for setting up an additional site for “Pros” to sell their wares, as was mentioned, well- they are can advertise their inventory on their own site. If they belong to LumberJocks, the signature link to their site should be all that is permitted. Further, if LumberJocks supported the “Pro” site, would there be a conflict with paying advertisers, how could an equitable fee be determined for the Lumberjock Pro vs. the “Major Manufacturer” and Martin, how much more can you handle? I think you are going to open up a whole can of jellied whoopass, here. As was pointed out, if folks want free/low cost advertising, there is Ebay and Craigs List.

Lew

OK it must be my turn !!! Martin thank you … you were reading. I was feeling pretty good after reading about what Martin wrote. Then it turned completely UGLY, That is until Russel, Dadoo, and tenontim chimmed in. What don’t you understand about me sharing my secrets of 50 years of woodworking FOR NOTHING. Yes I said NOTHING, and some of you think it is your god given right to TAX me more. When people come into my both and ask me “How did you do this?”, I tell them if they buy one I’ll give them the plans. I have given this information here for FREE since I’ve been here. I just have a little fun with Shameless Promotion . You are all adults and have free will to go to my site or not!!! Someone emailed me recently just stating that … YOU DON’T HAVE TO CLICK ON IT. I like to show my site off because I designed it and published it. It also helps you get to know me … nothing more !!!

I’m mad enough to …........................................................

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke". http://woodstermangotwood.blogspot.com/ (my funny blog)

Bill the Ad Marketing Guy has it pretty much as it is.

Ignore him at your peril.

There is a lot to choose from this bountiful life we are living so it ultimately comes down to choices.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I don’t have a problem with individuals posting their work for sale or not – I think most of us are just making nice stuff and ocassionally we can sell a piece and feel good about all the money we’ve spent on tools and all the hours we’ve spent making sawdust. Most of us don’t make our living woodworking (I could only wish!)——

Maybe that needs to be the line——if you make your living woodworking——post all you want – but don’t sale. If you don’t make your living woodworking and can sale a piece or there—- okie dokie.

Just think how poor this site would be without the Marc DeCous’s and Odies amongst us.

Even professional woodworkers need a place to go to show off their stuff and converse with other’s with sawdust in their veins. I don’t know of any site that is just for professional woodworkers.

I don’t know what the final answer should be—- but we need the pros to stay about so that we can all learn from them.

-- My digits count!

id say from a community point of view the rules should be well defined and strict . the problem i see with the common sense approch is , what is common sense to me may well make no sense at all to someone else .
therefore you dont really have rules , you have a whole bunch of judgement calls . smells like conflict to me .
from my personal veiw id say you could have a link to your web site on your profile page , and your link could be you tag , not part of your tag . we really dont need 3 paragraph tags that are sales pitches ! lol
thats my view

A couple things about AMG-Bill’s post struck me; First was the line ”The Big Fish in the current LJ pond WILL become the small fish in an ocean of other sea life!”, and ”Eventually, neighbors leave for quieter and friendlier surroundings. What is the current LJ culture will be replaced”. That’s sort of what I’m feeling already. I’ve been part of LJ for just under 400 days, a bit over a year. In that time I’ve already seen the “old timers” begin to drift away. LJ seems to have grown tremendously in the last year and it seems like the guys and gals I used to know and look forward to seeing posts from are pretty much just gone. I thought it might be that they were just being drown out in the noise but if I look them up and look for the latest post it’s been a while for many of them.

I’m sure it’s all good, to get bigger, to see more faces, more projects, more of everything. But LJ’s “feel” is changing, how did Bill put it ”The “city square” is replaced with Times Square”. That really does capture it.

I realize this comment doesn’t have much to do with the topic at hand but as LJ’s get bigger and more overrun with advertising and commercialism, which hopefully translates into dollars for Martin, he certainly deserves it, it does become a less homey place to hang out. I know fewer people. It becomes hard to figure out who’s who. There are so many posts in a day that besides not being able to even read them all it’s getting impossible to sift out the interesting posts from the noise. I realize the words interesting and noise are personal opinions, but the comment still stands regardless of what you’re looking for.

Anyhow, I wish Martin all the success he deserves but perhaps Bill is correct in that the change from small cozy community to bustling metropolis is inevitable.

I might have a unique spin on things here because of not only who I am, but where I’m employed. I’m here because I love woodworking. I check this site daily and even have the lovely LJ toolbar installed on my (company) laptop. I also work for a manufacturer who has a lot to sell to woodworkers. When someone has a question with a product that our company happens to make, I feel somewhat obligated to share what I know, and most often have no reason to mention the company name. Again, I’m not here on company business. If we happen to have a product that solves a certain posted need or problem, is it really wrong to tell someone about it?

If you want the company I work for to buy ad space, I can tell you that it won’t happen. Traditional print media is fine but we haven’t moved much past that (to my dismay). I loved reading about how Lee built and finally had to source out his production. That’s a great success story to any one of us who ever built a jig to help us do something. We should read about it and if we see links to the website selling those, so be it. It goes to show that the process really has taken off into a business, not just some guy selling trophy bases on the side.

By the way, we make saw blades. Anyone ever use one of those?

I see a lot of valid points being made. It’s tough and I don’t envy the decisionmaker’s job.

Using this site to trade and sell tools and excess inventory among hobby woodworkers seems to benefit all. I have an add in Woodworking Trade & Swap. We’re only doing this for what I would call a temporary extended hobby basis. We’re certainly not ready to make a business out of this and I hope that our attempt to sell some happenstance lumber is not offending anyone. Any attempt to track and gain a percentage of sales on a small scale could add too much to the transaction to make it worth the effort for all concerned. LJ would have to invest more time in administering it and I think it would put off many of the onesie/twosie sales and trades. This is not the case for full time operators or for auction settings.

It looks like you’re trying to divide the outfits that have a larger turnover from those that don’t. It seems the easiest to do and offers the greatest reward for the effort. I like that approach. But where to draw the line? And there’s always going to be hitches, glitches and misunderstandings during a change.

-- Wonderful new things are coming! - God

My suggestion is to allow the personal gallery area to be upgraded to a storefront with the purchase of a pro membership and allow a user to add projects/inventory to that area without it showing up on the projects page (if they wish to post to projects because they want to discuss how it was constructed they’d still be free to do so)

This solution allows the pros/semi pros to showcase what they have available without inundating the project page with every single example.

I think you should also add a block user feature, so that if a jock finds one user particularly irksome they can choose to simply not see any of their posts/projects.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Damian, I REALLY like the idea of separating projects and storefront/gallery posts. If your just posting posting products from your store why clutter up the projects page. Just put them in your storefront/gallery.

If you have something that involves a discussion of woodworking then post it as a project.

I also REALLY like the idea of being able to block posts with certain tags or from certain posters. There are some types of projects I’m just not interested in. There are also posts from some people that become annoying just from the volume. I’d like to be able to block those.

As LumberJocks continues to grow, I think that we will need to adopt some the Web 2.0 techinques to allow users to decide what they see. The current version is VERY nice and Martin has done a great job but it is the same for all users. It would be nice to personalize my view of the site so I see the things that interest ME.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

One you mentioned ”Common Sense” .... There doesn’t seem to be anything common about it.

-- Odie, Confucius say, "He who laughs at one's self is BUTT of joke". http://woodstermangotwood.blogspot.com/ (my funny blog)

After reading all of this. Here are my two cents (or a drop of gas at these prices).

1. You need to maintain the small community – friendly atmosphere of the community.

To do this you need to keep the two items separate. Jocks and advertisements.
I would make sure you maintain the integrity of the site by making sure any changes, keep the business off the main site look. A separate tab has been suggested. Not a bad idea. Using a link in the profile or signature has worked great for many. Perhaps a watermark in the corner or something similar for items that people are selling that links to the tab of their stores.

2. You need to keep the woodworking services businesses out of the jocks area.

I like being able to come to the site and not have a thousand advertisements from businesses trying to sell me a planer. If I wanted that, I’d join “fine woodworking” or other sites. I think it is fine, that tool reviews link to the company that sells the item or where the person bought the item to be posted there. If I’m looking at tools, I want that info, if I’m looking at buying something. If a business has a service to sell, a “Services” tab could provide an area where companies could list their services and/or reviews of those services.

Lumberjock or ToyStore

But in reality, their is a difference between a company and a person. As a woodworker you are a “lumberjock”. As a company you are a “toystore (tool/lumber store)”. Posts made by jocks are for jocks and posts made by toystores are for jocks, but only when jocks what to go to the toystore. Jocks can get together and talk and share, but when a jock tries to sell something to you they become a toystore. I don’t go to someones house to buy something most of the time, I go to chat and talk and possibly work together on a project. When we want to go and drool, we go to the toystores. I guess what I’m trying to say in my ramblings is that business is business and nothing personal about it. The introduction of business takes the social aspect out of the site. If I want to talk business, send me to a new part of the site or a separate site. Linking between the two is not necessarily a bad thing, but should be limited.

Seems to me that if you are selling a product to LJ’s then you are an advertiser just like Woodcraft or Rockler. You should pay advertising and be listed with other advertisements. Not as projects, forums or blogs. Doesn’t keep you form adding projects, contributing to forums, or adding blogs as long as they are about woodworking.

If you are selling individual items occassionally you can user the Woodworking Trade & Shop forum.

If you want to post things that you sell, but NOT to LJ’s, then what do we or our advertisers care? My only objection is that those posts get in the way of REAL projects that share woodworking knowledge. After a while the volume of those posts starts to look like SPAM.

It would be nice if people could post items to their gallery without posting them as projects. Then they could copy their entire store to LJ’s and not clutter up the Projects page. Of course, if that is what you want, why don’t you just include a link to your website/store and save Martin some disk space.

Just my opinion.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Well the thing is from Martin’s view disk space is cheap, but content is king, and commercial content can be monetized far easier than any other kind. The key is doing that while not ruining what made LJ popular in the first place. I think that a blocklist in conjunction with a post to gallery only option would work wonders.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Martin,

I read this blog and you ask some great questions… unfortunately I don’t have time right now to read all of the responses, so if I repeat anything already mentioned you know why.

Please, please, PLEASE keep our Lumberjocks as commercial free as possible. I think the advertising banners are great, and represent necessary income for the site. I like how they are off to the side. And advertisers should know that they really work too. I click on them all the time. They are well placed and not so obtrusive that it makes you want to just ignore them.

But the first time I saw a blog where someone was announcing a milling business where they had a lot of wood for sale I was like “huh, that doesn’t really belong there…”

Ever since then I have seen more and more commercial blogs: i.e. a blog (or forum) from an established business for the soul purpose of selling something. If the purpose of a blog, forum, project, et. is to sell something I don’t believe it belongs here.

I feel the same way about projects. If you post a wooden box (for example) and tell us that it is “high quality, exotic hardwoods, and ready for shipping for only $99.99” than I don’t care if you are an established business or not… you are taking advantage of this site. But if you talk about the construction techniques, things that you learned in the building process, where you came across the wood, what inspired it, etc, and then let us know that you might be willing to sell it, I don’t mind that so much.

If you walk into an art gallery many of the pieces will be for sale. But how do they handle it? They have a tiny price tag on the wall a few inches from the lower corner of the artwork. It is very tactful. The reason the do this is so that anybody can view and appreciate the work of art without being advertised at! Also, you don’t need to yell at someone to get them to buy art. If they like it enough that they are interested in buying it, they know where to look. This is very important, and we should follow this model. So maybe we should have a small “check box” if a project is for sale? Very small, lower right (not at the top of the page) and possibly room for a price.

I am not browsing this website to be advertised at on every click!!! If I want to go shopping I will click on a sponsored link.

You brought up the “what if” of DeWalt writing blogs on Lumberjocks. If it was informative information such as a company tour or history lesson (I would actually be very interested in something like this) I don’t see a problem. But we are not stupid, we can smell an advertisement a mile away. If they blog about how great their new line of cordless tools are, it’s a no brainer… it doesn’t belong.

Thinking out loud on how to manage commercial posts:

I usually brows Lumberjocks from the “Pulse.” And it is starting to get several categories in that first little “pull down” box. (Projects, blogs, forums, jocks, workshops, etc.) I would LOVE it if we could “customize” our pulse search criteria with check boxes for the different categories.

For example, I like to search the pulse for new/comments on blogs and forum topics, but not on “jocks” or projects. I browse for projects in the “Projects” section since it has thumbnail photos, and I browse jocks in the “Jocks” section since it shows a thumbnail and also says where someone is from. And the reviews are truly a great feature of Lumberjocks, but when I’m not in the mood for reviews they also tend to clutter the Pulse. (They are almost like a mini ad even though they are written by an LJ.)

In other words, with so much content these days, it is getting harder and harder to find the posts I am interested in. Its overwhelming. There have actually been blogs by new members asking how to get through it all. Here’s an example…

In NEW GUY WONDERING:

”I’ve been here a couple of weeks and I just have one burning question. How does one cover sooo much territory as some you seem to. I get on here and just seem to go around in circles and not getting anywhere. Everywhere I go I see the same faces. I just don’t have the time. Is there a trick to it ?”

Even I have been slowing down a little in my responses, just because there is so much content I just don’t know what to do anymore. Martin—you posted this blog only one day ago, but I almost missed this post because it was on the THIRD PAGE OF THE PULSE!!! I have always tried to keep up. I just can’t do it anymore. I think posts need more separation by category in the pulse.

If we had this “check box” format for what type of posts are displayed in the Pulse, then I don’t think it would be unreasonable to add a couple of categories. (This is inevitable anyway… this site is growing!) This would make room for commercial posts such as DeWalt’s company tour, Lee’s EZfeed blog, or a blog on someones Wood Mill business… This would also make room for the future Lumberjocks Classified section (which I have bugged Martin about in the past) and whatever other great features Martin dreams up next.)

My point is that with the “check box” option you could customize the Pulse to show what you want it to show (even more than you already can)... but this site could have as many categories as it grows into.

BOTTOM LINE:

My gut reaction to the initial question would be: keep commercial interests out of posts—period. But I’m not sure that’s realistic. So I am glad you are asking the questions, Martin. Because I think there is a way to accommodate almost everyone. People are here for different reasons than me, I have to admit. But the bigger this site gets (it has more than DOUBLED since I joined) the more control we need over the content we browse.

Thank you so much for tuning in to your members.

And by the way, I’ve got 500 cans of Premium Snake Oil for sale for the low low price of only $9.99 each if you ACT NOW! Contact me if you are a sucker and you are interested ;)

-- Check out my new website! http://www.blakeweberwoodworking.com

Blake you should use RSS you can pretty much add /feed to the end of any URL to get the RSS feed for a post/blog/forum etc and from there with firefox at least it’s a one click process to add that feed to your favorite RSS reader. I have a feed for Projects/Blogs and the comments from this thread at the moment. Works really well.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Blog Feed http://feeds.feedburner.com/lumberjocks-blogs
Project Feed http://feeds.feedburner.com/lumberjocks-projects
Comments from this thread feed http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/msojka/blog/4507/feed

etc

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Blake—I like your positive take on all this: I think there is a way to accommodate almost everyone.

right when I was feeling that this was an impossible task you make this statement and I am again confident that Martin will indeed find the right mix!

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

BTT

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Blake, I hope it wasn’t my post in the trade and swap forum that rubbed you the wrong way.

I relative new here and still haven’t explored all the features. But this site is a lot to take in in both features and shear number of members and posts. What I’m gathering from this discussion is many don’t like adds cluttering up the pulse feature and other areas. Does a post in the trade and swap forum cause problems elsewhere? If so, is there a way to keep posts in that area from polluting other areas?

I’m kinda lost here. Is my add causing any problems and how does the change in rules going to effect me making future additions to it? (I would kinda like to continue this add until the project is complete.)

-- Wonderful new things are coming! - God

BTT
For those of you not familiar with the latest acronymns for expressing yourself in shorthand may I offer the folliowing possible interpretations:

BTT Back to Top
BTT Back to Topic
BTT Bank to Turn (aircraft control)
BTT Batch Test Tool
BTT Batignolles Technologies Thermiques
BTT Battle Technology Team
BTT Beat the Train (Detroit urban mountain biking website)
BTT Before This Time
BTT Best Table Topics (Toastmasters)
BTT Better Than Them
BTT Bicicleta Todo-O-Terreno
BTT Big Time Tournaments (website)
BTT Blue Text Transfer (gaming)
BTT Board of Tariffs and Trade
BTT Border Transition Team
BTT Bored To Tears
BTT Bougainville Transition Team
BTT Branch Training Team
BTT Bridge to Terabithia (movie and book)
BTT Bridge to Transplant (artificial heart)
BTT Built To Test
BTT Bus Traffic Table
BTT Bus Transmission Time
BTT Business Transaction Tracing
BTT Buy This Thing (classified ads)
BTT Balanced Temperature Technology

Let us not forget the ” BTT ” as a possible form of scolding!

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Whoops . . . BTT = back to top.

Tks Bob #2

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

Martin,

From my standpoint, being a professional woodworker and someone who has something to potentially sell to LJ’s members, I know I feel funny posting some comments. What I mean by that is, I came here to be part of a woodworking community not to try to generate sales for my woodworking school (that’ll come when we start advertising on your site in the near future). My profile mentions my website, my furniture making business and my school but when I post, my signature merely has my occupation and my web address. If people want to check out my site, that’s great but it isn’t the primary reason I’m here. I get to read LOTS of posts, see some unbelievable projects and exhange ideas on different topics.

When I post projects, I’m not trying to sell them to other woodworkers but I can see where some folks would just flood the projects page with items for sale. In that case, a separate “showcase” might be a good idea. The only thing posted there might be items that are for sale. I don’t necessarily think the traffic will be as high as it is on the projects pages here but it would eliminate a fair amount of the grey area for you.

Odie’s blog is exactly the kind of thing LJ’s needs. I’m sure there are a fair number of members who do this as a hobby who dream of making the leap from amateur to pro. While Odie’s posts may have some links to his website, is he trying to sell them something when they go there or is he trying to illustrate a point?

Lee is a paid advertiser. And while that doesn’t give him carte blanche to flood his posts with ads, it should buy him a little leeway when he’s trying to illustrate something and mentions his product. I’ve read a lot of Lee’s posts and he certainly doesn’t seem to be pushing his product through his posts. I think this is where the “common sense” thing comes into play. If he, or other advertiser, starts mentioning their product in a majority of their posts, you may need to take some action.

Al Navas’s post is a little tougher. He’s not advertising and his post could cause you some trouble with your paid advertisers, yet I’m sure the majority of LJ’s would love to hear about a free tool giveaway. I haven’t seen the post but it seems to me we’re talking about a singularity. It’s not like he’s blasting it all over the blogs, the projects and the forums. As long as it’s information that many LJ’s would like to know about, and it isn’t being spammed on all the boards, I’d say it’s probably fine to let it go as it is. I mean, Marc Spagnuolo is an advertiser who happens to post a video that mentions his dvd that’s for sale. He imparts information many LJ’s would like to hear about but he isn’t spamming anyone in the process. Isn’t Al’s post along the same lines?

In the end, it would probably be beneficial to have a “pro board” to handle all those things that definitely cross the line between helpful and advertising. To force Lee, Marc, me and others like us to only post in those areas would potentially remove something from this site that many LJ’s want…advice from people with TONS of experience. I guess the biggest consideration is what is the intent of the poster? If their a pro who’s trying to be helpful that’s entirely different than someone who’s sole intent is to market a product or service. Not sure if this post has helped you or not but I sincerely hope it does. There seem to be a fair amount of good thoughts already presented. I’m just glad its you that has to make the decision and not me.

-- Chuck Bender, period furniture maker, www.acanthus.com

Martin, I’d just like to say, it’s my Sincere and Honest Oponion that this site is GREAT. I’m thankful that I was able to come across this site while searching the web for lumber. I’ve enjoyed the numerous projects that I’ve viewed, as well as members that I have come to make their acquaintance. I’ve noticed Sales Advertisments from the major companies along with items for sale from LJ members, and I have checked most Ads out. Not only for purchases, but for being curious to see what was offered and if I may be inclined to want, need or daydream about maybe some day of having items. To possibly make me a better woodworker, or maybe as a present. I’m not a college graduate, all I know is that the world is made up of a lot of people, wanting to make good for themselves and their families. I guess if you break it down, Big Business is made up of a lot of people as well, Workers and Prospective Purchasers / Users. We used to have a radio talk show here at home, it was called the Swap/Shop. It used to come on once a week and people that had things for sale were able too advertise them, The show would not have been possible without the local companies advertisments. The majority of the entire Tri-Town area used to all tune in to listen to it. I’m sure that there’s a happy medium for all involved. Well thanks for reading, if you can get what I’m trying too say Congrats, my wife says I’m falling on deaf ears. All Things Are Possible.

-- Your Brother in WoodWorking John, Pittsburgh , PA.

I haven’t given this a lot thought but off the top of my head the thing that turns me off to a site
more than anything are flashing/moving ads. I will try to find another site without them.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

Martin, I personally do not mind the links to the personal websites on someone’s home page or tag line. I don’t feel like the tag lines, or the home pages “shove” things down my neck. I have visited quite a few websites that the jocks advertise, and I always enjoy looking at their work. I think it’s a great way for all of us to cross reference each other, and it’s good for the jocks that want to sell things on their site. If I don’t want to be sold to, I don’t go there. It is fun to look at more of their work, though.

I do think it would be a great idea to create a “for sale” forum or gallery, and better sorting of the “pulse.” If it weren’t for the pulse, I wouldn’t be able to cover much ground on this site because it’s so huge. Other than that, thank you for the fantastic site!!! Martin, as always, you do a great job!

-- As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. (Proverbs 27:17) †

I guess I am agreeing with the majority here. Providing links to your own website for additional information I think is OK, so long as it is not for the sale of a product or item.

If somebody makes a project or provides a service, and a fellow member is interested in that service or project, then they can go to that web site to get the information. It should not be blatently advertised as ”FOR SALE” or ”Contact me for more information and Prices” Lets have a seperate area or site for this.

Several members are using the Bandwith and hard disk space of this site for there personal storage area and selling platform(This costs all theLJs Money). I think that this should be a ”NO NO” Reference your own site for information, but your site should not reference this site to get the sales information, but should be allowed to reference this site, if the build and technical inormation of the project is presented for all to read and share (No Copyright).

I joined this site, like many others to share my skills and knowlege with others, this site is one of the greatest sources of ideas and information exchange available on the net – lets keep the commercial and personal information exchange seperate please.

Thanks for the hard work of all the LJs who make this site the best woodworking site in the world.

-- Tony - All things are possible, just some things are more difficult than others! - SKYPE: Heron2005 (http://www.poydatjatuolit.fi)

For me I think a link in someones profile is one thing. That’s just a bit more about that Jock. My option if I want to go have a look at his/her site.

Posting a project, blog or forum topic, with the intent to sale is advertising and should not be allowed. If a Jock wants to sell his/her wares: buy an add.

Common sense, is never common.

-- Brian's Table Top Toys http://home.mountaincable.net/~bgraham/

I agree with GaryK about those annoying flashing ads and also pray never to see any Pop-ups or Pop-unders as well.

We have a LumberJocks store. It seems that if anyone wants to advertise, first the ad should go thru you for approval, and secondly go thru the LJ store for sales. Which brings up a question. I recently purchased a new Jet Air-filtration unit thru the LJ store. But when I browsed Amazon directly, I got the same deal. Does going thru the LJ store generate funds towards the site?

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

Dadoo, pretty sure the LJ store just adds a referrer code to the Amazon URL so Martin gets a cut of whatever you buy there, and if anyone doesn’t like ads just use Firefox Adblocker and poof all ads vamooshed.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

I have read most all the comments and see its a, agree to disagree situation. I found out about LJ via the Wood Whisper. I like this site, its great to see other projects, share info, learn new techniques and feel welcomed. I am a member of Woodnet, and at times that site can move very quickly.

I did not join this site thinking I would sell my furniture or cabinets to other woodworkers, but I do like the idea of being able to put a link to my web page, just so folks here can go browse, as I have done with others here. To me its a great learning experience, which BTW is the main reason I love woodworking, because I love learning a new technique, or a different finishing recipe etc.

I would greatly love to see a “Pro Page” or “WW Storefront”, and would defintily concider paying to be on it.
As long as it has the possabilities of generating a future customer base. Would this new storefront advance search engine criteria? Would there be outside advertising to get more people outside of Lumber Jocks to visit? I guess what I am saying is that in my line of products, I dont forsee gaining any cliental from people here that do the same thing. If I sold lumber, tools, materials (commercially), I could see the advantages.

But I sure do enjoy the comaraderie on this site.

Dave

-- MISSION FURNITURE-My mission is to build furniture

Thanks for all the fantastic points and comments! Keep them coming. Till next Saturday I’m more in the reading mode because I’m on the trip. But as Bob said I will “take the posts above, add a favorite allcoholic beverage, some ice, shake well…..pour into a glass and drink. See what wisdom rises to to the top.”

Where else you could discuss this sort of things and take part in forming the site’s future. Keep the discussion on topic and active… thanks

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com | My Facebook: http://profile.to/msojka

Martin,

Thanks for the wonderful site! My 2 cents: keep it as simple as possible. Separate all commercial things out as a separate area, first. See how this develops. Make more rules for the commercial area, if needed. It may need to be further separated into yellow page or ad area vs. showing a project for sale area. This will allow LJ’s a special spot to sell stuff. It would allow big commercial companies a spot to contribute money to the site through advertising. Everybody could relax, knowing there are special areas to sell stuff if they want to.

Please don’t allow those flashing pop-up things. If a seller or commercial company, who has access to a well-defined special interest group such as LJ cannot state the benefits of the product or service in terms that catches the interest of this group, then they should not be allowed to flash annoying things.

-- Rich, Seattle, WA

So how do you guys feel about posting lots of stuff on LumberJocks just to improve your position on search engines? Its not really advertising. It’s just using the LumberJocks site to increase your business. Very clever.

On one hand it also increases posts for LumberJocks. That much quicker to 1,000,000 posts. More post, more revenue. A good thing.

On the other hand, people that enjoy LumberJocks for the give and take on woodworking might be annoyed with all the posts designed only to generate traffic.

What do you think?

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Well Leon, I fall into the second category. In my mind (as silly as it is) there’s is a certain purity to LumberJocks. Using it as a promotion tool that way seems unnatural. LumberJocks is so much a tool to use as it is an environment to experience.

That’s my opinion. It may change, but I will still be right. ;-)

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

Here is my $0.02.

The way I see it there are three selling scenarios:

1) Companies selling to woodworkers – LJ’s paid sponsors
2) Woodworkers selling to people – selling their products
3) Woodworkers selling to woodworkers – selling products, used tools, etc

I like AMG analogy to a community. What I have read so far is that everyone DOES NOT want to lose the community feel. In order to maintain a real community zoning laws are required to keep things in check. Therefore virtual community “zoning laws” should be developed. In a real community there are places zoned as residential where people live and places zoned as commercial where business thrive and grow. In the LJ virtual community there should be a place for LJers to live (discuss wwing) and another place for business to thrive and grow.

A common sense approach is great . . . however common sense is not all that common (I believe Odie said this) and something that may be common sense to one person is totally foreign to another (I believe this was Russell’s). Therefore the only way to have everyone understand is to have rules. Grey areas are open to interpretation . . . rules are not.

My thoughts . . .No selling in the blogs. Selling of products, used tools, wood, etc should only take place in the classified section of the site. If you have a business . . . either sponsor the LJ site by purchasing advertising or only promote your wares in the classifieds. The words “for sale”, “available for purchase”, ect should not be in your project blog. If you want to sell it . . . post it in the classifieds.

Having your website in your signature is fine and mentioning your business in your profile is ok as well. How else can we get to know one another.

The only catch . . . Martin would have to create a classifieds section.

Oh . . . I give Martin 2 big thumbs up for allowing us the opportunity to have input into how we want our community to develop. Its almost like a town meeting :-)

I will hand someone else the mic.

-- The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them

In an answer to Leon’s comment:

Posting your linked item and business url’s does NOT aid you in search engines, it has absolutely no bearing. My firm specializes in SEO, I employ 2 FT people who do nothing but optimize clients web positions, we are also a Google Affiliated Ad agency.

Search engine optimization and trust me your postings here have absolutely no credence with the search engine robots and G-page rankings——It may benefit the LJ site with outbound links but not your site. The entire LJ site only has a 4 out of 10 page ranking on Google, which is slightly below average.

In answering another post I saw regarding meta tags use for search engines—-it no longer is a prime criteria and has not been for years! Google uses very very sophisticated algorithms, which changes almost weekly, and has greater security than the Coca Cola formula. They shuffle their deck more times than a Las Vegas Blackjack dealer.
When you search on this site and get results as Google branding—-it is Google site search not Google direct—it is a very fine radar screen being used.

Sorry to dismiss your comment, just did not want anyone to think otherwise.

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

I am very new to this site, but I am going to throw in my thoughts on this anyway. The very first thing I noticed about LJ’s was the friendly atmosphere. Nowhere else have I found this kind of free flowing information about woodworking without being bombarded by commercial spin. I come here everyday to learn about woodworking, to admire the work of other woodworkers and to share our experiences along the way. If I want to go shopping I will get out the catalogs, search the web or go to the mall.

That being said, I don’t mind seeing a link to a poster’s website in thier signature line. If I like what I see someone has done here, I may click on that link to see if it is for sale on thier website. What I would not like to see here is force fed advertising. Pop-ups and embedded ads in the text really annoy me. My feelings are that if it is a project that we can admire and talk about…..post it. If it is a product that you made specifically to sell at a profit…..post it elswhere.

-- Evil can only thrive when good men do nothing.......E. Burke

So, Bill. What you are saying is that there is NO reason to flood the LumberJocks site with “projects”.

Thanks for the correction!

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

Leon,

My comment was regarding search engines ONLY, I was offering advice ( on your comments) regarding posting with expectations for G positioning-
Please reread- My entire commentary regarding this entire subject were posted 3 scrolls up -

I was not correcting you, just clarifying the subject, accept my apologies if you thought otherwise.

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

Bill, I’m not offended at all. I’m often wrong and I don’t mind being corrected. Or not corrected as the case may be. lol

So, is there a reason to flood the LumberJock’s site with “projects”? Is it just advertising in the conventional sense? Won’t help your search engine position but someone might come along and see your post and want to buy something?

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

TWO THOUGHTS – KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND MAKE IT SMALLER and BIGGER:

I think “Ad Marketing Guy Bill” is on the right track, but I challenge his thought that “You (LJ) WILL loose the ambiance of community life. “

I disagree with that. This website is obviously using technology to pull everything together, linking us all up, keep activity visible and these are the keys to a viral site that keeps the interest high.

SOME IDEAS….MAN MY JUICES ARE FLOWING NOW..WATCH OUT

KEEP IT SIMPLE - MAYBE I am missing this feature on the site already, but if you start to say scale up the site into ten, one hundred, one thousand niche sites within the site I think you can keep the community small and specific for folks. —THIS MEANS the forums now are too broad, scale them down and you can direct the MASSES that LJ will attract over time to specific areas of interest that will in turn be smaller in conversation, but richer in content and thus satisfying to the community.

Think Google Groups or any groups website. There are millions of groups on google groups of all sorts of subjects, same on yahoo groups. The successful groups focus on niche areas, start a following and are sustainable.

COMMERCIALIZATION - Craig’s list succeeds at a massive scale, it is worldwide AND local at the same time. Now besides the simple form you fill out to post an item for sale, the site asks one specific question to :

Permissions:
ok for others to contact you about other services, products or commercial interests

Martin, I think here at LJ you should do something similar like this when someone is posting a message.
——————
EXAMPLE:

Permissions:
is this a commercial posting, are you trying to sell something?
——————

IF they click yes THEN ADD SELLER icon to post to warn people before they read it. KEEP IT SIMPLE, let the user decide if they want to read it. The website will police itself through irate members if the seller incorrectly posts
ELSE No icon means no selling. You can post a link to rules in the FORM if the poster doesn’t understand.

THE commercial poster has to make the TITLE really interesting if they want the user to read their commercial posting.

If no one reads this doesn’t the site just throw it off the PULSE as more interesting posts peculate up.
———————
GREAT JOB Marin so far…I’m impressed beyond belief from an online marketing perspective.

KUDOS to the community too.

-- MRod, Henderson, Colorado by way of Brooklyn!

I’ll start by saying that Martin has done a fantastic job with this site over the years.

I’ve been a jock for a couple years now and I really don’t understand this apparent mentality of project limitation. Why anyone would want to give off the attitude that jocks should not post projects or limit the number of projects posted I don’t understand. The more projects posted, the more fellow jocks can see your growth as a woodworker. That is why I took the time to add some of my early projects a while back.

As far as details included in project posting, yes I can be disappointed if there aren’t many details included, I try to keep in mind that some people may not like to, or just don’t feel like they are good writers. Then there are people like Mark DeCou that make me wish I were a better writer as I truly enjoy his descriptive capabilities in his posts.

I check this site typically two or three times a day. Granted, I don’t wander through the blogs and forums regularly as I prefer checking out the latest project posts and seeing what my buddies are doing. I can’t say I’ve really seen too much here that has “offended” me. Typically if I don’t like what someone has said or posted, I move on to something else. There’s no use in getting worked up over something so small. I have certainly never felt as if someone were tying to jam marketing down my throat.

I have no objection to the storefront concept for those that would like to post items for sale. It would do well if Martin could incorporate some sort of shoppingcart/checkout capability and with that said having Martin earn a percent or two from the sale would certainly be justified.

I guess I just want to say that we should be grateful for the work that Martin has done and stop the complaining.

Thanks again for a great site Martin!

-- ~ www.darrylmasterson.com ~ www.darrylmasterson.etsy.com ~ www.woodworkingdungeon.blogspot.com ~

That’s heavy Dude! I mean darryl

-- ??? My mistakes heat the house. It's very warm in here. ???

I’m here to share info on woodworking, hear about others experiences, learn about the people and techniques behind the businesses. So far, it’s been great that this info has been freely shared with no strings attached.

You can’t get that stuff anywhere else, not even magazines because their stories have to be selective because they have to please advertisers and sell magazines to a wide audience of readers. It would be a shame if every post was motivated by greed, profit and self-interest rather than sharing and being part of a community of like minded people.

I can tolerate the banner ads – if they keep the site free – though their messages are wasted on me as most of the advertisers are from halfway around the world.

I will lose interest if most of the members became paid pro members.

-- Steve, New Zealand, www.steveracz.com

I guess I need to cast my vote too, so here it is: I like the idea of a separate swap/sell page or mall for us LJ’s to put up stuff. Like the guys that come across a bonanza of lumber or exotic woods that they would like to make available to the rest of us. However, advertising via blogs and other posting should be limited to pointing others to their advertising on the legitimate advertising pages. The way I see it, if they are making money on something then they shouldn’t mind having to pay for the advertising space. If someone makes a good tooll or specialized jig or provides some kind of service for sale or hire and someone else wants to post a review, that would be a different story.
My MAIN reason for being here is to see what others are doing and to get hints and ideas from them (or pass on my own) on ways to do things that may be better. I do this for fun and I’ve done it for profit in the past. I have nothing against anyone making money, but I like things more or less as they are now. I want to say THANK YOU, MARTIN for the opportunity to cast my vote and let you know how I feel.

Gus

-- Nothing says "I love you" like a saw blade.