Some things are just wrong.....

I have noticed the same thing, Bill.

Maybe a sales pitch section for people that might actually want to look at it.

-- Gary, East TX -- The longest journey begins with a single step.

They are getting LumberJocks advertising free.

-- If we learn from our mistakes, I'm getting a fantastic education.

I’ve had the same feeling as you on occasion, Bill. To give folks the benefit of the doubt, though, it is probably just a case of wanting to show their work, and then throwing in the plug while they are at it, as opposed to posting just for the sake of a sales pitch.

Ethics aside, this probably is not a good place to pitch your woodworking items, because any self-respecting LJ would rather try to make it him (or her) self. <g>

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Yep – save your time and energies, market to your audience, not your fellow crafters who, as most might be willing to trade. We do want to see your work, and want to help each other make the most of our hobbies – or self employment at it.

-- The opposite of war isn't peace. It's creation. -- Wood T's: http://www.printfection.com/snbcreative

I agree Bill, but I would even go alittle further. I have grown concerned with the business tutorials and debates that they have spawned, I just love the craft.

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

I agree with all of the comments above. If someone wants to show their work for pride of workmanship, as an example of their creativity and skill or for critique and assistance the the Project section is the right place. If they want to sell their work and advertise it here on LJs, then they should go through the process of putting it in the advertising section and support the LJs website in that way.

-- Jack - Mission Viejo, Calif - I may not be good, but I'm slow.

I’m with you Bill.

-- johnjoiner

Well, happy to see that I’m not alone here – thought I was just being a sour grape and that was not my intention.

-- Bill - "Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased." http://www.cajunpen.com/

I completely agree with the rest of you. I am not here to buy anything. Just to view and learn.

A seperate section would be nice for those interested in selling their pieces and discussing business. Maybe a seperate forumn for business discussions. It would be easier for those in the business to find other in the business and zero in on those discussions.

On the other hand, the way I look at it, if there was something posted that I just wanted to purchase I could always PM the creator and ask if it was for sale. I don’t think anyone would be offended by that. Would you?

-- Kevin, Wichita, Kansas

Guys, keep in mind that some people use the gallery as their personal gallery, and link there from other sites, etc. I don’t see the harm is putting a “for sale” on your gallery items.

Google my name and you will be taken to my 2X4 entry….thats had over 80,000 hits…..I know they werent all LJ’s! If I were selling that table as opposed to donating it to charity, it would be silly of me NOT to put that it was for sale.

When I see stuff listed for sale, I just generaaly assume that it’s not intended towards me, and just look past it.

Just something to think about…...

-- If you can't set a good example, at least serve as a horrible warning... www.rarewoodcreations.com

I think that a link can be put to forward someone to a place where the sale is noted. If people see this as a free commerce sight, a small percentage of the sale should be donated to the site.

-- making sawdust....

...and we do have a forum for buisness talk.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

I’d kind of like to keep the forums reasonably free of commercial endeavours.
I am all for commerce myself but there is a section of this place set aside for it now.
Maybe for Jocks just starting out we could look at a “classifieds” area where they could post along with a reasonalbe sum for support of this place.
I’m not going to ask anybody to donate here unless they can afford it but if they want to sell stuff that is quite different.

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I agree Bill

-- Ron in Osseo, Minnesota

I agree with Dennis and Motthunter and Bill and most of the rest of you. I’ve been here a long time and this has just started recently. If you want to advertise you should donate for it. mike

-- Mike. Profisher50@yahoo.com

I FULLY agree- I sincerely believe there should be a rule not allowing people to sell their work on this site.

We come here to enjoy project successes,
I for one learn quite a bit from some of the regulars who post. Most of these regulars offer advice that is a school unto itself – for that I am grateful.

I would hate the projects page to become a woodworkers ebay! And if there is a need to sell work then a different area should be created NOT under projects, and with out question a minimum of 10% of the sale should be given to LJ for support.

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

Guys, sorry…but I disagree. Now I have no intention of selling work here, but Martin did encourage people to use their LJ’s homepage and gallery as their own portfolio….and some guys are doing that. Remeber, if you ARE using it as your portfolio…you kinda have to list whats for sakle as for sale in you projects area….as the projects area is what people see. Not only LJ’s come here remember.
Besides, the same two things apply in this case as to the others: If you don’t like it, ignore it
and
This is Martins sandbox….it’s really not up to us to dictate policy.

Heres Martins Quote:
_

Go to your “My Home” page and click on the VIEW GALLERY button to open your personal gallery:

An option to exclude the project from your Gallery Viewer is located on the project create/edit page. This way you can control which projects will be displayed in your gallery.

Plus it’s easy as 1-2-3 for the public to bookmark and share your gallery page by using the included BOOKMARK button as well as the visible link to your gallery.

Here’s the sample: Todd’s Gallery

Have fun and proudly share your Woodworking Gallery… you may use it as your portfolio or just for fun.

Note that the gallery requires the latest Flash Player

—Martin, http://lumberjocks.com_

-- If you can't set a good example, at least serve as a horrible warning... www.rarewoodcreations.com

I hate to disagree with such a fine group of LJs, but …
The February LJ eMag suggests that one way to help promote lumberjocks.com is to ”use your LJ profile as your business website”. So if LJs are being asked to use their profile as their business website, it doesn’t seem reasonable to then ask that they not indicate a price for their items.

As for posting topics more related to business than woodwork, there is a forum category called “Sweating for bucks through woodworking” (or something like that) which indicates that the discussion of the business aspects of woodworking are encouraged (or at least accepted) on the site.

-- What exactly is "The Move" and who are you calling a "Quirky Jerk"? -- http://www.north40custom.com

My take on this is that this is not a very good place to try to sell your work. I’m trying to make a living from my woodwoking so I’ll add my web site address to darn near anything I can. All of the projects I’ve posted here were made for my home, but can be purchased thru me. My only reason for posting my website address here is so that other woodworkers can look at the other things I make, and to share them with other woodworkers. So , yes there is a bit of comercialisim in my posts here, hopefull not too blatant. I have to admit that when I see that a jock offers many of his (or hers) projects for sale I feel somewhat put off. That’s not what I’m here for. I’m here to learn & share, to be inspired to try different skills and to offer advise from my experiences. That said I see no problem with discussing buisness with like minded woodworkers. Thats one good reason we have a Coffee Lounge. I think there are quite a few “pro” woodworkers here & many more that are concidering selling their work, if for no other reason than to finance their next tool purchase!

-- http://www.grandprairiewoodworks.com

Ryan and Peter make some very good points. Maybe Martin can come up with a way to differentiate between “professional” posts and “hobbyist” posts, and then add a level of filtering. That way, those of us who are mainly interested in seeing other amateurs’ projects would not have to sift through projects posted with the intent of being someone’s professional portfolio. And professionals could feel free to post their sales-oriented projects without any worry of offending the hobbyists.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

As the owner of an Advertising Agency and Marketing Consulting Firm and having done that for close to 40 years I will offer my professional opinion.

Get yourself a dedicated website for you and your work. They are so cheap today and you can direct your prospects to that environment. You can get placement in local search directories and when you do any local advertising your appearance will be totally professional. People will feel more secure about doing business with you. If you go to local craft fairs giving out a simple flyer with a dedicated website and email address will enhance your perceived value.

Trying to sell work on this site is like trying to sell bibles to the Vatican – your primary audience is your peers, people coming to this site looking for items to buy will have difficulty in finding you——-and if that did think about how confident that would be to be redirected to your personal professional and outstanding website.

A website can be built and designed for pennies….you can do it on your own—-you can talk about your craft——-provide references and offer much more definitive information that you can in LJ.

You only make a first impression one time——-make certain you do it right!

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

If you sell it from here pay here a %

-- WOOD/DON (...one has the right to ones opinion but not the right to ones own facts...)

If a Jock is posting stuff for sale hoping their fellow Jocks will buy, I think they’re [usually] wasting their time. If, however, they are using their LJ profile/projects page as a portfolio, I think it’s an excellent idea. Not only do they have a place to store all their projects in an easy-to-read place, but there are also the comments of fellow Jocks, which are usually very encouraging and might help sell the product!

-- Eric at http://adventuresinwoodworking.com

^^^^^What he said. And you guys are forgetting, Martin WANTS people to use LJ’s as their business page, as it increases traffic/advertising $.

-- If you can't set a good example, at least serve as a horrible warning... www.rarewoodcreations.com

I am on a lot of woodworking sites and i post a link to my gallery and to my website on everyone of them. I get an average of 500 – 600 people on my web site every month and i do very well . This way i am giving people the option to either click on my links or not too. Whenever i see someone trying to sell thier stuff openly it gives me the impression that they are desperate . There are all kinds of ways to advertise for free without making yourself look cheesy.

-- John in Cranbrook http://www.extremebirdhouse.com ....http://community.webshots.com/user/cranbrook2

Advertising dollars are spent on markets/locations where the advertiser believes they will be seen by the most people, right? This is why you don’t see billboards on back roads. So Martin will be able to charge more for advertising on this site if there is more traffic to this site, right?

If Martin wants to encourage people to consider using this site as their professional website as a way to drive more traffic here, and if some people choose to do so, I think it should be expected that those people would list their prices and include a sales pitch. Believe me, Martin has the potential to make a lot more money in advertising revenue than in taking a cut from the projects that are sold through this site.

And if Martin thinks it will help drive traffic to LJ, I don’t think we (who are receiving the benefits of Martin’s efforts free of charge) should demand that people not use LJ as their professional website. It’s kind-of biting the hand that feeds us.

-- What exactly is "The Move" and who are you calling a "Quirky Jerk"? -- http://www.north40custom.com

I tend to agree with most of the opinions posted above.

Although I plan to establish myself as a full-time professional woodworker in the next years—as soon as we move to the USA.—I can’t even contemplate the possibility of not getting my own business website… and also showing my work here. But let’s face it: as great as LJ is, it is hardly what conveys the most professional image for your business. Also, you are redirecting potential customers to the largest database of the finest craftsman available—probably some of them working in you area too and I guess that even those that are not pro wouldn’t mind selling an occasional piece if asked to—. If you do this for a living, this is not good on my books…

I don’t mind the ocasional ”For Sale” sign at the end of a project page but there are some exemples way too blatant, and that puts me off.

As most have expressed, I think we need a ”Marketplace” page for those interested in having a professional gallery… and this could be a paying feature. Remember that Martin some time ago talked about the possibility of a subscription mode for advanced features. Well, I can’t think of a better one. After all, if you sell only one item you can largely pay for a yearly fee for the gallery, can’t you?

We all agree this is The Place on the web when looking for great resources on woodworking. I think we all need to support the site and, after looking at the donors page a measly 2,45% of the 3,500 Jocks has done it… remember that you get what you pay for!

As for the posts talking business I think they have a place here because this is clearly a not negligible aspect of the craft that interests a lot of people.

The way I use LJ is through the RSS feeds. I am subscribed to all of them in my Mail app on my Mac, so I scan through all the titles and read only those that interest me. Also LJ is my homepage when opening Safari. This is the ideal way I found to not miss anything with the least effort.

Just my 2 yens on the matter. Have a nice one folks.

-- Jojo · shopless in Kyoto

I have been fascinated with this site. There is so much support and assistance offered to everyone, yet when someone gets riled over a little thing like a “for sale” sign, I have to say, “Lighten up Francis”. (Stripes) Good words, well wishes and support seem to be the corner stone of this sight and I believe it is doing very well. As long as you are offering more than just a sales pitch and you post your project in an informative way that other LJs can gleen some insight into your style (or method of madness), who could care that a blurb says that it is also for sale?
I will agree with most that this is not what I’d consider an ideal forum to hock my wares, exposure is still exposure. I did not intend to sell one of my boxes to a complete stranger on the train the other day, but she saw it while I was showing it to a friend and after some conversation she said she wanted to buy. Oppertunities are where you find them and what higher praise and satisfaction of a job well done is there when someone parts with their hard earned money for the fine work you do.
As long as it is a simple statement of being for sale and a monetary value affixed to it, I don’t see a problem.

BTW… If anybody wants to buy from me, remember… In god we trust, all others pay in cash.

-- Anybody can become a woodworker, but only a Craftsman can hide his mistakes.

To play devils advocate for a second:

Should those of us who were asked to voluntarily donate to this site to keep it functional also be asked to subsidise the members who choose to use the site for marketing their products?

So far I don’t seem to see that fact being addressed.

A quick check of the donors list will kind of put my thoughts in some perspective.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I view any prices listed as a reference point. I think we all wonder what the going rate for our items might be, and if someone is getting a decent price for something similar, wouldn’t that information be valuable? Not that I am making anything near as nice as what I have seen here, but hey, it’s good to know what we can work towards.

Capitalism- it’s the American way!

-- Furniture Medic- the prescription for damaged furniture

I am with you Bill. I don’t want to buy stuff (except tools) I want to build it.

-- Maplewood, MN

I joined to see what other people make, and to discuss methods and problem solution.
Some of the ‘for sale’ ads. do annoy me, but there’s not that many.
The amount of good stuff far outweighs the bits I don’t like – it remains a great site for me.

Oops, didn’t mean to start such a big controversy – just making a personal comment. Sell, don’t sell, I’ll be back everyday either way. I just love this place!

-- Bill - "Suit yourself and let the rest be pleased." http://www.cajunpen.com/

I’m with you, Bill. I think I’d go into withdrawal if I didn’t get my daily fix.

-- Maplewood, MN

I’m with you Bill!

As most of you already know I do this for a living and I didn’t join to sell things here. I joined to share my work with others in hopes of spuring them on to try new things themselves. Its fine to try and sell your work, but I just don’t think this is the place to do so.

I think this is a teach and learn site for those that are new to woodworking as well as those that are well seasoned in the craft. I’m here to share what knowledge I have aquired over the years and hopefully keep the craft going.

Not looking to make any one mad or upset either, this is just my thoughts.

-- Les, Wichita, Ks. (I'd rather be covered in saw dust!)

Great discussion!

I don’t mind the projects that just mention a price. Ex: “I sell these for $100 at craft fairs”. That information is actually useful to LJ’s as a pricing reference for their own work.

I like the business discussions in the Sweating the Bucks forum. Good place for it and many LJ’s are interested.

I’m NOT a fan of the project posts that sound like they came out of a catalog. It looks as if the poster just had some ad copy laying around and they stuck it on the page. Not much value to me. Not much sharing with other LJ’s. I like the posts that discuss motivation, design challenges, construction problems and solutions.

If you really want to sell on LumberJocks, we need something like the store we already have. Call it a Gallery in the sense of a place where you sell art. It can generate income for Martin like the store does and like the store it would be separate. If I’m not interested in buying then I don’t go to the Store or the Gallery. The Projects area then becomes a place to SHARE not SELL.

Just MY opinions.

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

I think that if someone wanted to buy something I made that they could PM me for a price. (And then come over and pick me up off the floor!)

What worries me about selling outright would be like if Ethan Allen Furniture started to advertise here. But then you gotta consider that if they did, we’d just copy the thing and build our own, cuz we’re LumberJocks and if we don’t know how to build it, we do know how to find someone that not only does, but is also willing to teach.

I really don’t see any harm in quoting a price on your own creations, but I don’t think LumberJocks is a buyers market. A builders market…yes. Someone selling plans could do good here.

Just my 2 bits.

-- Bob Vila would be so proud of you!

You guys are speaking on the assumption that the only people who come on this site are LJ’s….with the work Martin has done wit the search engines, etc. Non LJ traaffic on this site is about 100-1. My last project had 80,000 hits…..theres 3000 LJ’s…....tells me that there are LOTS of people seeing these projects that arent builders. What does it mean for Martin? Clicks on the site (= $$). This is wonderfull as it ensures the site can stick around for us to enjoy. If having to look at “for sale” means Martin can keep the site going and I get to keep enjoying it, I’m willing to make the effort to just ignore the “for sales”...it’s a small price to pay. I mean, I wouldn’t sell here….but that doesn’t mean You shouldn’t if A: Martin OK’s it, and B: You want to. Besides, Martin wants people to use their homepage as a business page, as it increases traffic and revenue.

I just think that this may be oversteopping the boundaries a little…..lets take LJ’s for what it is, not what we “think” it should be. I for one think Martin has created a great site, and I’m not about to look a gift horse in the mouth simply because I don’t feel like ignoring some text on a page.

I mean seriously…someone posts a beautiful project, is willing to share it;’s construction methods and answer questions about it, but because he/she put “For sale” on it, it somehow loses it’s value to other LJ’s? That makes no sense to me.

But seeing as Martin has done such a bang-up job, can’t we just “be and let be”?

Just my .02.

Ryan

-- If you can't set a good example, at least serve as a horrible warning... www.rarewoodcreations.com

Hmmmm…..well Bill you are right, it really is a wonderful community, but I do get discouraged about the direction some of the topics have taken. Perhaps it can’t be avoided

-- If knowledge is not shared, it is forgotten.

Bill,

thanks for starting discussion as well as everybody for sharing the personal insights. It’s things like this that are helping to constantly improve this site ;)

Let me add my 2 cents…

Ryan is right about one thing – this site is generating huge traffic from the search engines, especially Google.. it’s almost 3,000 visitors per day just from Google during the last weeks. And if you briefly check the project titles you’ll understand that lots of these google searchers are not woodworkers, instead they are interested in cabinets, custom carvings, handmade boxes etc. – they are pro woodworkers’ target market.

But the primary goal of this website always was and will be sharing and networking of the woodworkers. That’s why I intentionally used the term Project Stories instead of Project Descriptions. It screams that we’re after stories, motivations, processes etc. behind the projects… not some “catalog descriptions”.

Yes, I’m encouraging jocks to use the LJ profiles and projects as the online portfolios. On the one hand it makes sense since the whole site is such a great traffic magnet. On the other hand it should be done with respect to other LJs. And the best way to go is to have personal business website and just shortly refer the visitors of your projects to it if they are interested. Mark Decou’s project postings are nice example of this approach – example. Don’t forget one important fact – item for sale is same woodworking project as not for sale one.

In reality you cannot use LJs to enhance your business potential if you start using it without thinking and just repost your projects from the “brochure” here. As a result you will not gain respect and will not become authority on the site – so your prospects will see this and will uncover other masters on this site.

I know it’s not solved ideally right now but the site is constantly evolving. Ideally I will be working on the separate “Business Gallery” section with the top class design. Easy reposting of your LJ projects with different project description, contact info, price etc. I see there is a room for this and it could even be “pay as you go” feature. Yes, there is great potential and hopefully we will see this addition during 2008 ;)

Right know I want to launch Home building site as soon as possible and then just focus on the three sites in the Home&Garden market and make them the best ones. In addition I need to focus on the moderation and related features after the last incidents here. And we have been working hard with one big ww magazine to prepare another cool challenge so stay tuned.

As you can see things are moving on and I’m extremely busy. I’m trying to listen and to follow all the discussions regarding the site, community and how to make it better. Features targeted to the pro woodworkers seem reasonable and this discussion is great. Thanks!

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com

New here but going to add my input.

I see nothing wrong with someone offering something they have made for sales to others here, if your not interested, so be it, don’t look at it.

Maybe they are just getting started and using this site as a launch point, maybe the post will get responses hat give them a better direction to sell their product, whatever, it doesn’t matter. Someone here may want to buy the item because they don’t have the ability, equipment, time, etc to make it themselves. There may be (and I’m sure there are) those that visit with the specific intention to purchase an item that has been custom made. This could be the start of a great career for someone. Maybe, just maybe, that someone won’t forget where they got their start and start supporting the site financially.

We are all here to share our passion, hobby, whatever, with those who enjoy the same, to get ideas, build our knowledge base and skills, trade secrets, etc., if someone wants to offer something for sale I don’t see the harm, heck it gives me an idea what a similar creation may be worth, or how much I discounted something in the past.

I just think we should let them sell if they wish, maybe create a special location for just that, having custom made items does draw people to the site and the increased traffic is good for advertisers.

-- Upstate New York -- Do what you love and never work a day in your life.

I never thought anyone would want to buy anything I ever made. I’ve had trouble giving some of my projects away. While I have made some picture frames for a few folks here and there I don’t do woodworking for profit. Well at least until lately. I’ve been making things for my sisters knitting club, but it kind of takes the fun out of woodworking, knowing that if I take the order I have to fill it and it has to be good.

I mainly joined cuz’ I kept stumbling across this site looking for tips and tricks. I plan on keeping it that way for myself. If others need to sell their stuff through websites like this I can understand that too. My only hope is that these same people are willing to share the techniques they used to do a certain project or this site becomes useless to me if I have to pay everytime I want to learn something new or have input about one of my posted projects. My biggest fear about LJ’s is that it will turn commercial and I can’t expand my skills without reaching into my pocket first. That fear coupled with intense promotions and ego’s flaring would probably scare people like me away from the site.

I need the ideas and input from other honest jocks about how I can better my personal skills as a woodworker, maybe someone to chat with if I am lonely, or ask for advise without being chastised about my skill level. If LJ’s turns into a marketing forum I think it would be a bad thing. I have joined other websites for my various hobbies and they can get pretty mean and downright cruel sometimes. These past couple month’s have been a happy time for me on LJ’s and I sure hope it stays that way!!!!!

Oh, when I joined I didn’t put down a link to my business website californiaenclosures.com because it is a site for glass. Instead I put the link to my free sequoia site. When I built that site I did it so other people could share the big trees and contact me for advice on grovehunting and finding specific giant sequoia’s and features of the forest. I would be devastated if I found out others had been using sequoiascope.com to make money off of tourists and enthusiests at the expense of my hard work and knowledge. I made the site for you, so people like you could plan a trip to Sequoia and have a great time and bring home lasting memories. While it is true I have advised people from all over the world, I have reserved some groves that I don’t offer up information on until I am sure that you will be safe there and that I can be sure you will not harm the grove! I don’t want to tell anyone how to run their site, it’s really not my domain to begin with. However I do ask for feedback about sequoiascope.com so I can make it better for you and to make it an information site for those who need to know about the Big Trees. I made it for you to be used but not abused. I hope LJ’s stays that way as well…

-- --Chuck

Martin
Very nicely stated and sounds exciting-
Thank you for your dedication

-- Bill - - Ad-Marketing Guy, Ramsey NJ

I love this site, and I would have never found it if I had not been searching for something (a widget or information on a power tool) on Yahoo, which led me to a lumber jock project. It’s like a warm blanket at the end of a cold day. No good will come out of this discussion and I personally hope it dies a quick death.

A couple of years ago I was an active member on a DIY guitar amplifier web site which is one of my past times. This was a wonderful site and like Lumberjocks, it had a lot of members sharing good information. Then a few members started offering their designs for sale. The site owner put another forum category up with a premium fee listing for commercial member listings. The discussions in the other forums started digressing into opinionated rantings by the chosen few who were selling their products on the commercial forum. Then one forum member started slamming another forum member’s product. “Clicks” started forming between members and the sharing of relevent information started decreasing. One of the forum members sued the site owner because of negative posts of his product by other forum members. It wasn’t very long before the site was closed. Most of this resulted from one or two members who started rallying the troops to move the site in a specific direction and before he knew it, the site owner had lost total control.

What is the definition of professional or hobbyist? I see many projects on here made by “hobbyists” that rival any professional lumberjock (whatever that may be). If a guy or gal works another job during the day and builds and sells clocks on the weekend are they a hobbyist or professional? (and who really cares) I agree with Martin’s view that a project is a project. I don’t care if they want to put a price on it. I just enjoy the seeing other Lumberjock’s work and feel blessed that there is a site like this to come home to at the end of a cold day……

-- Dennis... www.closetdreams.com

Dennis, thanks for sharing the guitar amplifier web site story! My idea is to have the section “for sale” to have completely separated from the main site.. more like gallery, different design, without comments.

-- Martin, http://lumberjocks.com

On a personal note, I won’t enter any more contests here on LJ’s because I’m an amateur and can’t compete with these professionals on their level. I’m not mad or jealous it’s just a fact. I will try and support LJ’s in other ways because I do love the sight. But the competition here is too uneven now for any contest for me. mike

-- Mike. Profisher50@yahoo.com

Bill,

I think you’ve taken the correct approach in this posting.

It’s much better to discuss this with a little bit of sanity, rather than giving someone a bad time

for posting a few items for sale.

After all, we don’t know the circumstances behind any person who wishes to sell things they have made.

-- Dick Cain, Hibbing, MN. http://www.woodcarvingillustrated.com/gallery/member.php?uid=3627&protype=1

Mike, I’m really bothered by your statement. There is no reason anyone can’t win the contests. Pro/hobiest/whatever, everyone stands the same chance. AFAIK, Gary (Who smoked me in the contest BTW) is not a “pro”...just a guy with a heck of a vision and the desire and aquired skills to build to it.
My table: While I may be a pro woodworker, I have never built anything like that before…in fact, I don’t think anyone ever has. For that contest, you and I were on a level field. No fancy tools (Table saw, jigsaw, some MDF and a piece of ABS pipe) In fact, I quit that contest three times because I couldn’t make it work. I guess what I’m getting at is being a “pro” didn’t help me at all in that contest, makinbg a plan and sticking to it did.

I sincerely hope you’ll reconsider for the next contest. It’s way more fun with you in it :)

-- If you can't set a good example, at least serve as a horrible warning... www.rarewoodcreations.com

i agree with ryan i enjoyed the last place project just as much as the first place one .

-- if you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes

Heck the amateurs around here are the real competition, but I got to agree the skill level of pros and amateurs is intimidating.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

i think their should be levels of beginner to expert ,and as you move up you cant ever move back down.that would bring beginners to the table to compete.

-- eric post, tallahassee FL

Personally, I enter for the personal challenge
But the comment is a valuable one.

Now: the challenge is to make a challenge that is challenging to all and makes everyone feel that they are at the same level… going to be tough but I’m up for the challenge!! :)

I do remember the Thorsen Table challenge—everyone was a winner just by participating. And the idea behind it was that it didn’t matter if you were a woodburner or a carver or a house builder—you used your own venue to put your personal twist on the project. I’m going to keep that idea in mind for future ideas!

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Sounds like Mike started a new discussion about contests and pro vs amature.

I’d like to explore this but I think it is off topic for the original post here about selling.

Should we not create a new topic and continue this discussion over there?

-- Leon -- Houston, TX - " I create all my own designs and it looks like it "

As long as the projects and blogs remain focused on the woodworking, I don’t mind that some people might also happen to mention something is forsale.

I think, if something does get flagged as being forsale, then it should also be perfectly acceptable for Martin to request some kind of donation from people who are utilizing this as gallery space as well.

Perhaps you could add a tag or special field to the projects ‘for sale’ or ‘available commercially’ or something, then request that people upgrade to a paid account for such access.

That would cut down on excess commercialization, and yet allow LJ to expand as well.

I tend to direct potential customers and old friends to my page to show off my gallery of work. I tell them that I do this for money but don’t have any thing about it on my page other than the fact that we run two businesses here. I don’t think the LJ bunch will buy anything from me so I just try to keep it shop talk and fun.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon