Observations #2: Even the Bad is Good

We all are closet bad-guys and gals. But no one likes a loudmouth, snob, bore, so in order to be loved, we leave the closet door closed while we are on the computer.

Besides that who wants to be working on a power woodworking machine when they are mad. That is not the place to unwind.

It the place to cool out, chill out, pass out and not pout. Except USCJeff who has insomnia at 2:00 Am and decides on a “sit out” on a foam brush filled with “Not so green stripper” so he can strip before going back into the house.

-- Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com

Ha! Obviously you haven’t ventured over to our evil sister site “LumberJerks”! No, Just kidding.. I don’t see much negativity here either. Good observation, Russell.

-- Rob (A) Waxahachie,TX

Russel,

I started off my Lumberjocks experience (almost a year ago, actually…) with a bang with this blog entry on Constructive Criticism.

Personally, a part of me actually agrees with the comment that the amount of praise is a little excessive, but not really for the same reason. I just think it is highly disproportionate to the amount of helpful feedback people get on their projects.

I honestly don’t want to rehash the “Constructive Criticism” topic all over again. Having an art degree, and having gone through peer review sessions every week in every applied art class, it is something I’m used to receiving. Most people don’t have that experience, so I don’t expect them to be used to it.

And the whole discussion started getting silly with some people wanting to indicate whether or not they wanted constructive criticism by putting something on their project entry to indicate thus… It just got more and more diluted to the point that I didn’t care anymore.

So I post a few projects here and there, but mostly I do it for fun and not with the intent of receiving much feedback I can learn from.

It doesn’t really bother me, though; it’s just the way this site is. I’ve learned to approach my own works with a critical view enough so that I’m really my own worst critic, anyway.

That said, I was pleased to take note of Karson offering some comments about Charlie’s diamond-top box in a recent project entry.

-- Ethan, http://www.merganserwoodworks.com, http://greystonegreen.blogspot.com/

When we keep topics wood related (well, except for festool and sawstop anyway ;-) this site and the people on it are the best.

I just really dislike anything that gets political, religious, etc. There are so many differences out there about so many of our individual beliefs and tastes. Woodworking seems to be the glue that holds us all together through all of these other disagreements, which is why I love woodworking, and this site.

I would think it unfortunate (especially in an election year) if people start bringing those sorts of things on LJ’s. I, for one, sure hope politics stays off of here this coming year. Just my opinion.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

(this was posted 54 minutes ago—see?? I’m not ALWAYS on here!!)

I think one factor in the “niceness” of the site is the characteristics of individuals who have a hobby/business with a craft that uses their hands, their hearts, and their minds…. woodworkers (and I’m sure gardeners as well, as we will discover with the new site) “care”, they know how to be patient and to out-think a problem.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Dirt!!! That is what GardenTenders is all about! If you want dirt check them out.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Well, MsDebbie it’s nice to know that I can sneak one by you once in a while.

LOL Dennis … while I’m here, the wife is over with the ‘Tenders digging up the dirt.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

“Be careful of the words you speak, keep ‘em soft and sweet. Ya never know from day to day which ones ya’ll hav’ta eat.”

I think most of us are cognizant of where a small criticism will help and where it will harm. If I felt that I should really critique Ethan’s work I would do it in a private message, if he requested it. I don’t come here to listen to controversial conversation. I come here to have fun and relax(genuine chopper).

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

I think it comes down to the fact that we have all lost our pencils at one time or another, have had no idea what we are doing, have this great idea and no where to put it, no one right there to say “look what I did” who would care——- we need other LJs!

I also think that we all recognize that I may say something one way and have been thinking in a slightly different way than it came out in the typewritten word. I had no intention of being harsh or mean, I’m just not as good at putting into writing what I’m thinking. A lot of us are like that. If we all recognize that and realize that then we can all play well together. There is also the point that you can’t put inflection into a typewritten page and you can’t see my body language over the net and you have to take that into account when you read someone’s post. I type for a living and when I transcribe a tape I can’t transcribe the inflections of my bosses voice – if I could I’d make a lot more money!

I’m glad LJs is here. Of all the sites on the net that I’ve been to this is by far the best as far as people and posts. Not a lot of rules which ruins some forums. I think Martin has done a bang up job!

-- Betsy - GO BUCKS!

I found this to be an interesting blog as I have thought about this situation myself. I had to take a read on Ethan’s blog.

I am not ”The Authority” although I think that I am good at what I do (sounds conceited but not). I am at my level because others were generous with information as well as constructive and corrective criticism. I am my own worst critic so I was never offended. I am a business so I have to be relatively harsh with myself to make progress.

There is quite a variety of skill level and talent at LJ and I really enjoy that. I gave some “constructive criticism” one time and I felt horrible about it. Since then I have made comments in private and it seems to be well received, just as it was intended. I also have been asked in private for a hard critique and I will oblige. But in general my comments are not hard critique and are pretty positive.

Am I lying when I comment on projects? No, I can see the skill level that individuals are at and I see them making progress. I am not going to crush an individual’s pride in what they have done. They are very aware of the shortcomings in their projects as I am in mine. Anyone can be a critical ass.

I can see that the LJ members are encouraged and challenged by the community to be more creative and improve craftsmanship. I am sure that I may encourage some, challenge others, and put a few off. That is unavoidable, but I am considerate of others in my remarks.

How do I critique? Really I have to set aside personal taste, for instance I don’t like the Rococo style. But I can tell if it is well executed and well balanced. Balance, proportion, and execution or craftsmanship are the things that I look at for a hard critique.

I have had a desire to share, teach, and encourage. LJ has provided a great venue for me to do this. It’s amazing to me how much I have learned and the balance of perspective that it has given me. I felt like this is the direction I needed to go for personal growth. I am thankful for the people here.

For all the harsh, dog-eat-dog, and fraudulent behavior on the internet I am impressed with the behavior of the LJ members.

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I agree with Chip. The reason LJ is such a great site is that everyone stays on topic which is woodworking. We don’t stray into things better discussed elsewhere. I always fine everyone to be helpful, thoughtful, caring and dedicated to making each of us better woodworkers.

Dalec

Ah, come on! Let’s face it Lumberjocks….we’re just wonderful, caring chips off the old log, who love the wood and nature. Some of us are creative, some just slog along, but all Lumberjocks have pith that is rich in compassion and sharing.

-- Forget the health food, I need all the preservatives I can get !

Got Pith?

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Todd, are you trying to make a pithy comment?

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

What of it? Are you trying to pith me off?

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Nope, nope wouldn’t wanna do that.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

Whoa! This is just gettin’ ugly.

Russel – Was that whole exchange negative enough?

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

Todd, if I wasn’t laughing so hard I guess it would be negative enough. It has become obvious that most of the folks here are amateurs when it comes to negativity. My day job is in the financial sector so I don’t often encounter people who don’t have a hidden adgenda. This place continues to impress me.

Now, I had to look up “pith” because I didn’t know what it meant and this is what I found, “a usually continuous central strand of spongy tissue in the stems of most vascular plants …” Not quite sure what Calgirl means there …

The responses here have been just another demonstration of the type of folks here. Add to this Karson asking if anyone is going to the wood show in Dubai, USCJeff taking stripping way too seriously and pretty much anything Tom/Mot or Mot/Tom may say and you see a collection of people who take their wood seriously, but not themselves. I like this place and I’ll probably say it again in the future.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

pith: the core… soaking up all that there is to offer… providing… yah.. I like the analogy.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I like yours better MsDebbie. I’d much rather be soaking up all that there is to offer than a strand of spongy tissue.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

I have a thought – nothing profound. Most other sites you can post your comments, ideas, questions, even photos of your projects, but they are really impersonal. LumberJocks has a personal touch. Right from the start people welcome new members, you get a message from Martin offering personal assistance if needed, you have the option to have “buddies”. You are encouraged to make friends. At other sites, if someone disagrees, it’s easy enough to call a stranger a stupid moron and the flaming begins. Here, if someone disagrees, it’s a friend and people are more likely to have a conversation with a friend to try to understand their differences.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

—-I would say that there is no-bad,
and that all only serves to high-light,
the more of what is good….

....and therefore as you say, ”even the bad is good”! Kind of like how are you looking at that glass of water….half-full or half empty?

Open opinions give well-come invitations to try and understand that even though I may dis-agree with what you are saying, I will defend your right to say your opinion and in this way come to understand that, though your opinion differs from mine….I need not take your opinion as a personal attack upon my-self.

And yes I have been around here for some-time now and I still remember when this site was small and even when Ethan came aboard and that blog he did on ‘constructive criticism’, which is a fine piece of writing, ( by the way Ethan I miss your writing and dialog around here). Sometimes I don’t offer opinions on a lot of what is being written now, since I much watch my time and then a lot of what is offered up is just a re-hashing of what has all-ready been covered in the past. Nothing wrong with this, it’s just I don’t have the time to keep re-writing my opinions every couple of months on the same subject. And so yes, after saying all that, I do take the time to read what is being posted and welcome more LJ’ers to keep on blogging, writing and posting those great wood projects!

And yes, this is only my two cents worth of opinion here….

Thank you.
GODSPEED,
Frank

-- --frank, NH, http://frank.wordpress.com/

Like Deb and Frank and some of you others, I’m so glad to have seen this thing grow, from what it was to what it is, and I can assure you it has’nt changed much. The core of this website has remained stable, caring, sharing, supportive and striving just like it was when I first set foot or hand in here. I am proud of the fact I’m part of this group, I’ve learned so much not only about woodworking but about the goodhearted core people of the country that I know is still out there. If you listen to the news every day you would thing we, and Canada are falling apart. I’ll tell you what, Canada can join Michigan any day they want to or visa versa. Heh! We are not that far apart in our thinking, we all want the same basic things, familys, jobs. caring loving freindships. Thats whats its all about. Wow what a bunch of crap coming out of my sewer. I’ll shut up. mike

-- Mike. Profisher50@yahoo.com

Think you about said it all and pretty well described my way of commenting on the topic I fully concur!!!
May the new year of 2008 even be better and let the sawdust fly. Semper Fi !!

-- www.flickr.com/photos/egamarine/

All the hothead know-it-alls in woodworking get weeded out by discovering that a pieces of wood and machinery dont lend themselves well to those unwilling to learn PATIENCE.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

This has been one of the most fascinating and entertaining blogs to read! You are all so poetic and Philosophical!

I think it is good to periodically remind ourselves to be honest and sincere with our comments. I really like it when someone gives real constructive criticism on one of my projects because it usually sparks some very interesting discussion, or even debate. The we all learn even more from the whole process.

Thanks for the interesting post, Russel!

-- Dust collectors suck.

I will admit to one thing. I try to post a comment on every project, because I believe the creator deserves that courtesy.

I can appreciate the amount of effort that goes into a project. I’m not into woodburning or what ever the technical term is called, so I’m not going to say I don’t like it, just because I don’t create items like that. We all have areas of specialty, Boxes, Rustic Furniture, Toys, Jigs, Mission. I can appreciate the effort and congratulate the successful completion of the project. If I have something that I’d do differently, I might suggest it in my comments especially if It’s a point of constructive criticism. like make the grain match in the piece, try to make is symmetric, I realize that design techniques sometimes cause us to make things different than others would do like 5 legs on a chair.

I wouldn’t say, “Man you screwed up, You put five legs on that chair. Should only have 4.” But I might ask why in the world would you do that.

Making a comment is my option. As of now there are 211 reads of this blog and 26 comments, 27 with mine. Not saying anything is an option.

-- Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com

”there are 211 reads of this blog and 26 comments, 27 with mine. Not saying anything is an option.” That’s an excellent point Karson, I read as many blogs, projects and forum entries that I can, but I don’t comment on all of them. Sometimes everything has already been said and all I can add is “Me too” and that often doesn’t seem to do justice. Personally, I’m pleased with the number of times people look at what I post whether they comment or not (though I admit I really like comments).

There are just so many quality projects here and a multitude of valuable posts that it’s difficult to keep up. I find myself using the word beautiful more than I’d ever thought I could, yet that seems to be the only word appropriate at times. I’m not at the point where I am qualified to really critique, but I know the effort I put into my projects and I can fully appreciate the effort made by others. The fact that people here recognize, appreciate and acknowledge the work of others is the best part of LumberJocks.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

There are just so many quality projects here and a multitude of valuable posts that it’s difficult to keep up. I find myself using the word beautiful more than I’d ever thought I could, yet that seems to be the only word appropriate at times. I’m not at the point where I am qualified to really critique, but I know the effort I put into my projects and I can fully appreciate the effort made by others. The fact that people here recognize, appreciate and acknowledge the work of others is the best part of LumberJocks.

That sums up how I feel just about perfectly. I am awed by the output of the members. I am OK with some of the stuff I do, but there is a high standard here that I simply cannot meet.

-- Maplewood, MN

I try to read everything—I never know where I’ll find information for the eMag (see??? It really is research). But sometimes I get pages and pages and pages behind. To catch up I often have to avoid comments on entries… other times I really want to acknowledge the submission but only have a limited amount of time so a quick “awesome” or whatever is what I’ll post.
Other times, (like right now) I can be a little more wordy.
I agree with Karson, that everyone deserves my attention – they posted it for people to see. I want to acknowledge their creations.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Just to add to what I said earlier:

I try to read every project and most of the blogs. The ones that I choose to comment on are the ones that make some kind of connection with me personally.

Karson used the example of woodburning, which he is not “into,” but he still tries to make a comment because he can still appreciate the effort that went into it. Since I don’t have time to comment on every project I will comment on those which I can most relate to or appreciate. My example would be if someone posted a knitting project on LumberJocks: although I can appreciate the effort and artistic ability, I would be less likely to comment unless I was especially moved by the piece.

Since I am spilling my guts here, I guess I’d better offer a disclaimer: If your project has a comment from me I really meant it, even if it is only one word long. But don’t assume that if you don’t see my comment that I don’t appreciate what went in to creating it, either. I do miss things, and sometimes (like Russel mentioned) it seems that all has been said.

And another thing, there have been entire blogs written about short comments or praise. But I have noticed that some of my shortest comments (“WOW,” etc…) are on some of the project which I am the MOST impressed with. Sometimes I am just so impressed that I don’t know what else to say.

-- Dust collectors suck.