A Woodcraft rant... would you be upset or is it just me?

It is NOT just you. Situations like that do a lot to sour good customers. As you said, it’s petty cash.

-- Maplewood, MN

Teach you to return something. Suck it up and keep two of them.

Sorry Chip, Yes customer service is not that any more it’s customer dis-service.

I’m glad you were able to get them to give you your own money back.

-- Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com

Customer service is dead.

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

I agree, Chip. That is a terrible policy. I have to wonder if that’s a Woodcraft policy or just the policy of that particular store owner. I’ve returned items to my local Woodcraft in the past with no problems.

-- JP, Shelbyville, KY

This is from Woodcrafts website

Satisfaction Guaranteed – We Promise!
We’re absolutely confident that you’ll be satisfied with your purchase from Woodcraft! If you’re not, return it anytime within 90 days and we will gladly replace the product, give you credit, or refund your money, whichever you prefer. Woodcraft’s Guarantee does not apply to power tools, which are subject only to manufacturer’s warranties. Special-order items or manufacturer drop-ships are subject to a 25% restocking fee.

So the employee was incorrect when he stated that was company policy.

-- I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

I too, have never had a problem returning things to Woodcraft…even ones I have taken out of the package and used. They never give me a hard time and always give me back cash or credit my account. Maybe you ran into a guy that really dosnt know their policy. Or, like you said he just wanted to keep the money in his store. Regardless, thats poor customer service. I would consider contacting Woodcrafts corporate office and inquire about their return policy. Hopefully you won’t be talking to someone in New Delhi!

-- Women love me.....trees fear me

I think they may have violated some law by not providing a refund in the same manner in which payment was made, cash for cash or credit for credit. I’ve had some less than pleasing experiences with Woodcraft and as a result don’t do as much with them as I have in the past.

-- When you give someone a chance it may well be their last.

eBay is your friend.

what caught my eye was the 25 (dollars) and the 25 (%)... perhaps he, the store staff person, misinterpreted the policy…

my suggestion is to call the store and ask for the person in charge and get it clarified at that level… if the staff member has made a mistake, the boss needs to know so he/she can fix it… and if the staff was following store policy vs. company policy then you are talking to the right person re: the discrepancy and you have information to take to the next level of authority – the company people need to know what this store is doing.

Lately, there has been a lot of talk about customer service (and unethical inspection practices) and the consistent response I’m hearing is that we, the customers, have to start speaking up and responding in a way that will create positive change.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I also do a lot of business with Woodcraft. Most of the employees and the owner are very good friends of mine. That employee was trying to impress the boss(owner). If the owner had been there I’m sure it would have been a different story. It takes over a half million to open a Woodcraft store and I don’t think the owners wish to lose customers.

-- Thos. Angle, Owyhee Design, Oregon

Bummer. I do a fair amount of business with the WoodCraft in Boise, ID and have had nothing but good experience with them. Must be specific to your store. Feedback to whomever owns the store would maybe provide them with a training opportunity.

Man I hope I don’t have that problem when I drag my sorry behind in there tomorrow wanting a refund on all the junk my bh won’t let me keep. Refer to my blog from the other day. mike

-- Mike. Profisher50@yahoo.com

Thanks for the responses everyone. At least I know I’m not going nuts.

After he repeatedly told me that it was company policy I did mention I would be more than glad to have a “chat” with corporate if he wanted to get them on the phone. He said a call wouldn’t be necessary and gave me the full refund. I thought it was a bit suspicious and figured a) they wanted to get the day’s figures up (maybe someone was working towards a bonus?) or b) this particular owner/manager had adapted rules to cut down on the amount of cash needed in the store (in case of a robbery?). But he was adament it was corporate policy. Regardless, it should not have been an issue.

Appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Karson, you’ve made me feel bad. Guess I should have two of these so I’m gonna go back tomorrow and repurchase it. (yea, right ;-) Actually, I should have made one of the great ones shown on this site like Jeff’s (Caliper).

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

I bet you wouldn’t have been so rudely treated at thetennissuperstore.com They obviously didn’t know they were dealing with a playah!

No, you’re right, customer service is a dying art. This dude sounded like he wasn’t very well trained, though. That entire incident requires a letter to the manger/owner of the store. To save 100 bucks they were prepared to lose thousands.

Cheers!

-- You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation. (Plato)

Hey Motley guy, then I coulda just given him a forehand to the forehead. That’s tennis talk by the way ;-P
Where the heck is TomFran when you need him?

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

uh oh Mike…. :(

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I’ve never had a problem with Woodcraft. But, I’ve never bought anything from them either. But two next time, Chip and give one to a friend.

-- http://ye-olde-cabinet-shoppe.com/

I figure the manager was one of two things…

Either trying to keep the money in his store and only relented when you “offered” to call corporate, thus busting his plan.

Or, simply ignorant of the stated policy and fearful given that someone else had “lost their job” for doing such a thing. A printed statement of their company policy from the web or where ever should have been sufficient proof. You can’t fault a guy for being scared of losing his job.

And they can’t print every store policy on the receipt. There just aren’t that many trees.

receipts: they can say “see store policies” .. then you know that there are conditions…

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

There is a reason I do not shop at The Home Depot. Actually, two reasons.
One was a hose sprinkler that cost all of $7 and one was a soldering iron that cost all of $19.

The aisle guy finally relented and traded out the sprinkler. The manufacturer replaced the soldering iron for free.

I DO NOT SHOP AT THE HOME DEPOT!

I have never had that problem at Woodcraft.
You ought to copy this post and send it to Woodcraft so they can enjoy all the free publicity. Make sure you let them know what store you trade at.

-- No piece is cut too short. It was meant for a smaller project.

Got on Woodcraft’s website and emailed a link-to-this-blog to the customer service rep … wonder if anything will ever be said about it !

-- ..... art for lifes sake

Another reason why I love LJ’s. I am glad to see people’s responses are generally positive about Woodcraft but it is good for us in general, and them too actually, to have a forum where problems like this can be voiced, then hopefully seen and corrected.

Thanks again for your comments.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Little late in getting to this comment Chip. Sorry to hear about this incident. I’ve been really discouraged with customer service in general as of late. I’ve encountered the same type of thing at another popular retailer but my situation was a bit different. My item was on sale when purchased but not when I returned it. It also didn’t have the same price point. I didn’t think much of it at the time probably because of the lower cost involved. I guarantee you I would have had the same response to the situation as you were I in your shoes.

I’m glad you ultimately got the refund though.

-- Jeff, St. Paul, MN

Oh Mike…, bummer!

-- Maplewood, MN

Just to play the devils advocate for a second:

What do you folks think the ideal period of time to keep a merchant’s inventory in your possesion should be before deciding to return it?

Should the merchant replenish his stock in that interim or should he wait until you find it convenient to give him back the stock?
What if the article is discontinued or there has been a model change or complete improvement in the product since you made your purchase?

I’m curious as to how you folks think this thing should work.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Well, I’m no expert on retail selling, but I’d say that, at least in Woodcraft’s case, the time period would be the 90 days that they have printed on their receipt and on their website. At least that was what I used as my “convenient” deadline for the return. I assume some retail genius must have put a lot of thought into picking that number. If it had said 30 days (as many do), I would have returned it before that. Not sure about when a store wants to “replenish their stock” and how much inventory they want to carry. Maybe, in Woodcraft’s case, they do it after 90 days.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Bob #2, I have a bit of a different take on things.

The real reason I still stop at Home Depot is BECAUSE of their return policy… I’ve (thankfully) never had a problem returning something there. I have bought tools and hardware for spring projects, but never gotten around to doing the project, so I just return it NEXT WINTER. No receipt? No problem… Just get the gift card, they can keep the cash, and I’ll buy my next year’s supplies with it. Did I lose anything? Yes, probably 5% in interest if I had held on to the cash, but that’s a small price to pay for the convenience of having the tools and hardware handy when you need it.

Does it screw the HD? Yes. 100%. I admit it. Do they benefit in some way? Yes: They get repeat business. I can buy for projects without worrying about having bought the right widget or tool.

The only catch is that if you return items without a receipt (which you have to do if you have kept it longer than their stated return policy), you should claim to have paid cash (they can now scan their ccard sales), and if there was a sale on that item in the last 90 days, I suggest you hold onto it until 90 days after the sale ended, or you will be refunded the sale price…

Yeah, I know, HD isn’t the only store to do that, but it’s convenient, and I use others like that. The problem that arises, though, when you purchase from multiple retailers, is trying to figure out which retailer to return the item to!

Sorry, that was a long comment.. I’ll get back to work now. ;)

-- Dekker - http://www.WoodworkDetails.com/Blog/MNagy/

Bob – Excellent questions to remind us of another perspective!

Period of time? – Most stores have a stated period of time for returns (in this case 90 days). I would think that the business owners or number crunchers had addressed your concerns when setting the store policy about that time frame, and if the policy wasn’t working reasonably well, they would change the policy.

If the item is discontinued, model change, complete improvement? – I suppose the merchant has the same problem as with the stock on-hand when those things happen, and the items go on the clearance shelf with a sale sticker. It is doubtful that the merchant will take a loss, even selling at clearance prices.

Should he replenish stock? – well, the customer has given the merchant more money for the item than the merchant paid for it, so the business has the money to replenish the stock. If you return the item unopened, the merchant has a new item to add to stock, and has had an interest-free loan from the customer for the duration.

What’s interesting is returning used items – many merchants will accept used returns within their return period. The retailer can’t put used items on the shelf. Maybe if they can clean it up really well, it can be sold for a deep discount and the merchant might break even on his original investment, but more likely is that the item is thrown away or taken home by the store owner or an employee. So why would any merchant do this? They do it because it’s good for business. Some stores used to have signs that said “All Sales Final.” How often do you see one of those signs anymore? Most of those places went out of business or changed their policy because “All Sales Final” is not good for business.

Do you remember in the movie “Dead Poets Society” where they stand on the desk to remind them to look at the world from a different perspective? It was a reminder not to think in a rut, not to just think what we are told to think or go along with the crowd in our thinking. Thanks, Bob, for inviting us to stand on the desk!

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

a strategy that I find is really helpful is to ask the customer service person if they can help… if they say that this is their policy and they can’t help me, then I say “i would like to speak with someone who has the authority to be flexible.” Simple statement, no animosity and no arguing with the customer service person. They are just doing what they are allowed to do.
I then have a manager who can make decisions and not just follow the policy.

The other thing that I think that we, the people, need to do is be more responsible with our purchases and returns.
Some people “buy” products, use it the one time that they needed it for, and then return it.
Some use it, abuse it, (and abuse it some more) and then take it back because it broke…
I’ve heard of people buying clothes, wearing them a few times to decide whether they like them or not and then taking them back.
We need to start thinking before we purchase. We need to take responsibility for our use of an object and the damage that happens by how we use it. (and I’m not talking about normal use and breaking because of faulty material etc)

If “we” become more responsible, then the customer service won’t be so defensive/protective etc.
If they can trust us and we can trust them, wow – what a relationship!

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Peter , I just asked a hypothetical question (s) .
The selliing price of most consumer goods is based on profit margin, turn, and return. It’s a very loose formula and forms the basis of the individual store sales policy.

The more liberal the sales policy the higher the retail price is the current prevailing rule.

With profit margins on consumer goods at an all time high particularly in the US it is understandable that the retailers would extend their policies to reflect this.

I don’t get much of my business information from Hollywood so I must admit I have not reviewed ” Dead Poets Society” where they stand on the desk “

Whatever works for you.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi Dekker:
“The real reason I still stop at Home Depot is BECAUSE of their return policy… “

I have watched, as have you, the Home Depot change from,a full service hardware, building center to a big box selling flowers, fridges and pet food. The prices are a lot higher and the selection is diminishing each time I visit.
The packaging for small parts like screws bolts fittings etc is done in such a way that the parts often cost more than the job is worth. The packages are often set up short of a full set so you need to buy two paks to get a job done.
Example: Went in one day and picked up a handfull for fender washers. At the cash the gal counted them( not weighed them) and said that will be $25.75. I then found out that they wanted 25 cents each for the washers. I asked her why we shouldn’t just use quarters and save ourselves the trip to the depot.
I find the prices in this store in particular have risen dramaticaly in the past 5 years. If that is becasue of the liberal return policy then I must be paying for your style of shopping.
That’s not a good deal for me.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

return policies are important.
I rarely return something and when I do, in my opinion, it is for a legitimate reason. So, when I have to return something I don’t want a hassle.
I know that “hoops” to jump through have often been caused by misuse of the policy… somewhere there is that happy medium where it is a win/win/win situation. (Store, product company, buyer).

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I agree with you Deb.
We must do our part as consumers to help keep paperwork and non profitable value added services to a minimum. For that we should be rewarded with reasonable prices along with reasonable after sales service.
Unfortunately, that is not the business model out there today. If stores continue to cater to unreasonalbe customer demands then we all suffer with poorer quality of service and most often higher prices.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

“The more liberal the sales policy the higher the retail price is the current prevailing rule.”

Unless I missed something, I’m not so sure about the rational for this statement. The smaller corner hardware stores (at least in my area) all have shorter return periods (30 days) than the big box stores (Home Depot and Lowe’s both state 90 days). The two big box stores are (item for item) consistently less expensive then the smaller hardware stores (again, at least in my area). Big box store’s prices are dictated first and formost by their ability to purchase vast quantities of an item, pay less for it, and then pass those additional savings on to the consumer (think Walmart). Return policy, etc. run a far distant second when determining a price.

Also, I’m trying to remember the last time a store asked me how long I’d like to take to return an item. I don’t personally decide where to shop because of their return policy because I don’t expect to be returning items and rarely do. I hate shopping. But there is nothing “hypothetical” about a sales transaction. The store states an exact price on an item and tells me the exact stipulations for returning it based on their own formula for swaying customers from the competition and then retaining them as a repeat customer. When we purchase something from that store we must then adhere to their rules… and expect them to adhere to their own rules as well.

Dekker, you must be quite the smooth talker to be able to return items from season to season, sometimes without even having a reciept ;-) But I have to believe that this is the exception, not the rule.

And Mot, I have a feeling you should get some popcorn popping ;-)

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

And if any store bought from their vendors based on anticipated customer returns…. they’d go out of business in no time.

Bob – I thought your questions were smart and thoughtful and I said so. I took your comment “I’m curious as to how you folks think this thing should work” to mean you were interested in what others think, and so I shared my thoughts. I also appreciate being reminded to look at things from another perspective, and I said so. I’m curious why you felt that any of this merited an insult?

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Peter, first an apology. I don’t post here to insult anyone.

I thought I had replied to your post correctly and stated where I got the grounding for my comments.

I was surprised to see you quoting a movie as it requires one to have seen the same picture to understand the meaning.

I did not see it.

Without the advantage of understanding the reference I am at a loss to reply intelligently.

I did not comment on your other responses because I don’t agree with your summation.
I do regret not rephrasing my remarks regarding the movie and in hindsight I should have remained silent on that topic as well
Once again, my apologies.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

I do have to agree that HD’s prices and selection has gone down, down, down. I never used to shop at Ace Hardware because they were so much more expensive than HD. But now I’m finding that my local Ace has the things I need, in quantities that I need them (I don’t have to buy two packs to get what I need) and they have the odd things that most of the big boxes can no longer stock because they are not profitable enough. While their prices may be a bit higher than the boxes, I know I can find what I want when I want it and I don’t waste time going up and down aisles looking. They have people! And those people help!That’s worth a little extra in price to me.

An additional perk is that Ace will take back returns with no questions. I very seldom return anything. But not long ago, I bought a pair of leather gloves to do some gardening. They felt good, fit good, etc. I used them about 8 may 10 hours, got them good and dirty. Long story short, they ripped along the seam. I took them back, without a receipt, and I’m sure more than 30 days later. The manager took a look, said, yep we sold those, these shouldn’t rip and was willing to give me a refund. I opted for another pair of gloves – and they are good gloves to boot. I just got a rotten pair. It happens, but Ace took care of it. HD would not have done that.

-- Betsy - GO BUCKS!

Bob – I appreciate your explination. I’m sorry if I “read in” any intent that wasn’t there.

I’m also sorry if my comment was confusing. While I assumed that many who read this thread would have seen the movie (which is why I used the word “remember”) I also assumed there would be some who had not seen it, which is why I described the scene: “they stand on the desk to remind them to look at the world from a different perspective”. I think it is a neat metaphor.

I think that many people forget to look at things from other points of view (I know I forget), and so I appreciate being reminded that there are two (or more) sides to every situation. I called on a metaphor I liked to add “flavor” to my comment (“Thanks for reminding me to think” seemed dull, and vaguely antagonistic).

The idea that you should try to see things from another perspective isn’t really “business information” but a good idea for life and for getting along with others (in my opinion). I didn’t get the idea from the movie, but it did provide a fun metaphor.

I don’t know if that cleared up any confusion – if not, suffice it to say that the movie reference was only a segway for me to say “thanks for reminding us of another point of view.”

...

So, in the spirit of trying to see other points of view, I’d like to ask you about your quote, “The more liberal the sales policy the higher the retail price is the current prevailing rule. With profit margins on consumer goods at an all time high particularly in the US it is understandable that the retailers would extend their policies to reflect this.” In the first sentence it sounds like you are indicating that prices are higher because of the liberal return policy, but in the second sentence it sounds like retailers are extending their return policy because the prices are already high. Which do you see to be the cause, and which is the effect?

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

I agree with Betsy completely. It’s all a matter of one’s own definition of convenience and what it’s worth.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Peter: by now you may have guessed that I am a retailer .

Most of what I know about it comes from 34 years in the business and thousands of experiences with marketing , pricing and corporate insanities.

A. “The more liberal the sales policy the higher the retail price is the current prevailing rule.
When we set prices here there are two major factors and dozens of ancillary factors:

1.The first consideration is margin.
We invest our time and our own money in product that we think have market potential. We do not invest heavily in service items. This is because the average customer is now trained to graze the stock for service and dive to the bottom for the best price.

If our market is exclusive or finite we can anticipate higher profits.
If it is competitive we must deal with the street price of the product and naturally the will to sell the product drops with the declining profit margin.
In the trade they are called service items. Often the profit is as low as 5 -10% above cost. We stock and sell them to accommodate our regular customers and not to attract shoppers.

Players like Lands End and Lee Valley for instance take a reasonable profit on every item in their larder and use increased customer care to keep the “more discerning” shoppers happy.

Wally Mart uses deep discounts on everyday items to drive high volumes of mediocre products through it’s channels . The return policy is similar but the “service” is not there.

Some customers expect both styles from the same merchant- that can be difficult.

B. With profit margins on consumer goods at an all time high particularly in the US it is understandable that the retailers would extend their policies to reflect this.”

The North American importers and retailers were among the first to ship their expensive labor offshore and re import the product without union wages and several layers of government regulation that pushed up prices beyond realistic expectations.
No E.U, No OSHA ,No union, no pollution restrictions , and a huge labor force willing to work for about 1/10th of North American wages. ( in days gone by this was referred to as slave labor)

These savings were never passed along to the consumer but parts of it was used to increase customer service and to, increase market share and drive out small and medium sized business.
The rest of the money seemed to vanish into the pockets of the CEO’s and the like.
Now that the market place is dominated by a handful of merchandising units the availability of material is decreasing, there is no incentive to produce higher quality or to adjust prices in favor of the consumer.

I hope this explains my remarks more fully.

Cheers

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

That all makes sense to me Bob. Thanks for the info.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Yeah, I think I get it.

A. A generous return policy increases costs because it is an extra service

and

B. Some companies that have been able to significantly lower their costs are justifying their prices by adding services like longer return policies

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

So Bob, what do you see as reasonable from a merchant’s point-of-view? I’m sure if your customer is not happy with his purchase, you want to make him happy. What return policy have you found that works for you? Do you find that most returns are legitimate (accidentally purchased the wrong size/shape/style or the item was somehow faulty) or do most returns take advantage of the return policy (done using it, used it wrong and broke it)?

-- Coffee is best with a fine layer of sawdust on top. -- http://www.north40custom.com

Peter, Chip
I mentioned I came up from the old school.
Net 30 days was placed into the business equation to allow a customer to evaluate the purchase and still allow him a reasonable grace period to either pay for it or return it.
Over the years the “pay for it” part became Visa and others while the return it became a variable dependent entirely on the product and the merchantability of the returned item.

Gals can no longer buy a prom dress and return it. Fellows can’t buy a car and do similar.

Each retail discipline faces a different set of circumstances so its difficult to generalize.
I still feel that 30 days is pretty generous given the fact that merchandise is difficult to obtain and even more difficult to resell if the packaging is damaged.
I hate to say this but in reality the consumer has become expendable because the market shares are just about topped up in most categories.
so if you don’t shop with us there is somebody right behind you to take your place.
He can be in Poland, or Australia or China.
We have lost our clout as consumers when we allowed the lowest bidder to take our money.

I hope these musings are taken with the grain of salt they are worth.

Cheers
Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Bob, I appreciate seeing the art of transaction from an experienced retailers point of view. Your comments are always well received and thanks.

-- Better to say nothing and be thought the fool... then to speak and erase all doubt.

Wait, Wait, Chip started out saying that he had purchased something and then a friend said he had one he could have. Now, Chip has two and wants to return the item he purchased within the 90 day period. I think the stated policy is if you are not completely satisfied we will replace, issue credit, or refund cash.

I don’t know what reason Chip stated why he wanted to return the item, but it wasn’t exactly because he wasn’t satisfied with it! He wanted to return it because he got one free and had two. Perhaps an exchange or credit was the correct response from the Manager on duty.

I very seldom return anything unless it is truly not up to my satisfaction. I have been in the business world for some 40 years, starting in my family hardware/lumber business. While I agree that the commitment to great customer service has gone by the wayside many years ago, i feel that some of that is a reaction to the number of customers that take unfair advantage of these return policies. I read some of the responses here and wonder how many of you have considered that the ones that take advantage of the return policies actually drive the cost up and the service down.

Sorry about this soap box, but just couldn’t sit by and let it just slip by….

Thanks—- Jay (Gooddialtone)

-- Jay, San Antonio, Texas - Making Sawdust Rocks!

Christmas morning of 07 found my wife handing me a watch sold by Woodcraft. I don’t use a watch. She didn’t know where it came from, who bought it or when. I took it back for a refund as it still was in it’s original shrinkwrap and had a partial Woodcraft bar code. What really made this more of a mystery is the fact that she had bought the same item on Dec 23 of 05 and I returned it and got a refund on Dec 27 of 05. That info was recorded in Woodcraft’s computer system.
I told the manager I didn’t know who bought it for me or when and I didn’t have a reciept but it was under the Xmas tree three days ago.
THE MANAGER GAVE ME A FULL REFUND based on the current price in the form of a gift certificate. Sometimes we find a manager that does know about customer service. BTW, I have been one of their customers for 26 years and am well known at the store in Sacramento.

-- Abe Low, Fine furniture, Sacramento, CA

Abe… I think you were meant to have that watch.

-- "Functional WoodArt" by Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)