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I'm gonna stick my foot in "The Health Care" thingie...

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Blog entry by jack1 posted 07-22-2010 06:49 AM 3511 reads 0 times favorited 30 comments Add to Favorites Watch

I won’t do this very often but I’ve noticed a Lumberjock or two bragging on Canada’s health care system. Just found this today. Another rationing wrinkle. Those of you with small shops with employees (I’m not one), need to be aware.

Just sayin’...

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/541129/201007211841/Rethinking-Socialized-Medicine-In-Canada.aspx

-- jack -- ...measure once, curse twice!



30 comments so far

View Roger Clark aka Rex's profile

Roger Clark aka Rex

6940 posts in 2090 days


#1 posted 07-22-2010 08:15 AM

So after reading the “report” I guess what is being said is that Universal Health Care Systems in the civilized world are all bad, worse than a system where not everyone is covered and will turn you into a commie.
I would have thought that with all that “American Know How” that is touted around they could make a Universal System work well. I guess not, they must be dumb after all.

-- Roger-R, Republic of Texas. "Always look on the Bright Side of Life" - An eyeball to eyeball confrontation with a blind person is as complete waste of Time.

View wseand's profile (online now)

wseand

2253 posts in 1697 days


#2 posted 07-22-2010 10:32 AM

It’s called regulation get use to it. But this really should have been put in the Coffee Lounge if at all.

-- Bill - "Freedom flies in your heart like an Eagle" Audie Murphy

View docholladay's profile

docholladay

1286 posts in 1714 days


#3 posted 07-22-2010 12:59 PM

We say this all the time when it comes to buying our tools for our craft, but in Health Care, just as with anything else, “YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.” Also, FREE AIN’T FREE.

-- Hey, woodworking ain't brain surgery. Just do something and keep trying till you get it. Doc

View BigTiny's profile

BigTiny

1664 posts in 1543 days


#4 posted 07-23-2010 11:30 AM

As a canuck myself, I can add to this discussion. I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba and suffer from chronic lower back pain due to vone spurs in my sacro-illiac joints. I was referred to the pain control clinic at the Health Sciences Centre, one of the best in the world. Only one problem: it took me FIVE YEARS to be seen the first time!

Imagine being in pain so severe that even demerol doesn’t touch it unless taken in huge doses, and waiting that long to be seen…

-- The nicer the nice, the higher the price!

View Chris Cunanan's profile

Chris Cunanan

339 posts in 2135 days


#5 posted 07-24-2010 03:14 AM

BigTiny – exactly what i’ve heard from people firsthand as well as what i’ve studied into the matter, in college courses (believe it or not, Lol). It’s an absurdity, all the recent political actions going on around the world, even non religious people as myself (simply wasn’t “raised” religious, but i have learned to always have an open mind) are recognizing the certain duality in societies. Also what i have learned is that we have been Taught to not talk about religion or politics so that we always stay divided, and conquered….and to all the people who say “what does this have to do with woodworking?!” angrily, i say, just about Everything…simple example, as the real economy continues to fall and healthcare costs only increasing (along with taxes! and all kinds of new ones, yippy!), guess what?! that simply means more people have less money to even Think about supporting our beloved trade, whether as a Hobby or Income…so please, if you don’t like the discussion and can’t add anything why butt in? this stuff is pertinent people, to Everyone (US or the World), without a doubt! Thanks for reading…

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5111 posts in 2368 days


#6 posted 07-25-2010 09:42 PM

Hmmm, I’ve benefited many times personally from our healthcare system so I am really a strong proponent. Sure Big Tiny there will always be examples of where the system could be better… any system will have shortcomings. The thing we, here in Canada, have to keep in mind that a strictly for profit system will be just that a for profit system, someone will be paying the price. We cannot keep doctors here because they can quite readily go to richer markets and gain great personal wealth in, a you guessed it, a for profit health industry in another country. I am slowly learning about other systems and ours is not the best by far but also it is nowhere near the worst. There has to be an equilibrium reached somewhere where the healthcare workers are compensated for their efforts and the consumer (whether paying through our tax dollars as we do here, or direct billing as I believe is the case in the US) can afford their ministrations.

There is of course a huge emotional aspect to healthcare that I think sometimes overwhelms peoples ability to think rationally about the system. I know when my daughter was inNICU I would have spent any money I or my wife had to keep Lauren going…as it turns out the taxpayers (and yes I am a taxpayer so it ain’t a free ride for me) picked up the tab. Could I have thought ‘rationally’ about healthcare at that time, probably not but it does need to be done. The largest abuse I see of our system is where people are seeking the public purse to pay for cosmetic surgery…definitely not what healthcare was designed for. Getting back to Big Tiny’s example (and I do not mean to trivialize your experience in any way, I know back stuff hurts and is a misery to live with) he had to wait 5 years…but got in eventually, how do the uninsured or poor even get on the waiting lists in pay for service jurisdictions? Do they wait for a windfall, or until they can get insurance (can you get insurance on a pre-existing condition?) or until they are no longer poor? People often point to waiting lists as a sign that the Canadian system is failing or broken…it is certainly a weakness but sure beats no hope of treatment at all because you have no hope of affording the fees. I alluded to my personal experiences and Lauren’s time in NICU…that stay alone probably would have bankrupted my wife and I as Lauren spent 19 days there…I shudder to think what that would have cost in a fee for service area. I know that the nurses told us that the nutrition they were administering Lauren was called liquid gold and not because of its golden colour or its life sustaining properties. Well my precious little girl and her brother are calling me to go in the pool, a reminder to me of why Canada’s healthcare system is something worth supporting!

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View jack1's profile

jack1

1924 posts in 2682 days


#7 posted 07-25-2010 09:56 PM

In the US, no one can legally be turned away from any hospital, period. They come into the emergency room, are seen, sequestered, serviced and sent home. The benefactors (read hospitals, doctors etc.) write it off until others such as myself pay it back in taxes (MEDICAL in California) as well as through higher premiums, doctor and hospital fees. One of the ways that costs could be contained and reduced so as to make it more affordable to those without, would have been through tort reform which had a snowball’s chance in hades of passing with a democratic congress so full of or beholding to attorneys. This is a major reason medication is so much less in Canada than here.
Respectfully, a question? If things are so good, why have so many from Canada come to the US for procedures including recently, a provincial governor if I’m not mistaken?

-- jack -- ...measure once, curse twice!

View Chris Cunanan's profile

Chris Cunanan

339 posts in 2135 days


#8 posted 07-25-2010 10:06 PM

oh yeah on that note jack, we definitely need to stop becoming a sanctuary Country….cant believe arizona’s being sued while the sheriffs there are getting open death threats from the mexican mafia…oh yeah, ‘n stop the drug wars! ‘n all the wars for that matter! ok has the pot been stirred enough? lol

View jack1's profile

jack1

1924 posts in 2682 days


#9 posted 07-25-2010 10:45 PM

What this country needs is a good 25¢ cigar! ;0)

-- jack -- ...measure once, curse twice!

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5111 posts in 2368 days


#10 posted 07-26-2010 04:45 AM

I suspect people go to another country because they can afford to go and get treated there and not have to wait in line for the public healthcare system. Doctors will always be in short supply, it requires an enormous amount of learning, training and emotional commitment to become a doctor…not everyone has what it takes so they will always be more patients than medics. I have also heard of citizens from other countries coming here to take advantage of our health care system…even sometimes breaking our laws to do it, it happens. I am not aware why the premier of that province (I don’t even know which province he/she was from) was in the US for treatments, there could be many reasons why that premier was in a US hospital so I can’t comment on that…does anybody know more about that premier? (We call our provincial governors premiers or first ministers here…tradition)

I just think there has to be a balance; just like there should be a balance between what people want to pay for a piece of furniture (how’s that for making this wood working related ;-) and what it actually costs to produce it. If you could sell a cutting board for about $150 and that would pay for the wear and tear on you, your machines and the consumables, cover the cost of material and allow you to buy groceries you would happily(?) sell it for 150 dollars, but what if for some emotional reason people were willing to pay you $200 for it…you’d probably take it what about 300 now suddenly you are making serious cash and many people will start producing similar cutting boards great. Now everybody is charging $300 a board making a handsome living but is there not a moral imperative to not charge more than a reasonable fee? In the light of multi-million dollar sporting contracts and huge CEO bonuses it would seem that many do not think so, but maybe there should be. Maybe your hand should shake when you take that $300 dollars for the $150 dollar cutting board. To many of us are out only for us and not watching out for our neighbours, that is why the Walmarts of the world succeed, that is why factories are moving to developing nations…they can maximize their profit sell that cutting board for far more than it costs to produce. Okay now I am getting too wound up and it is just about bedtime, I’ll get off my soapbox.

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View jack1's profile

jack1

1924 posts in 2682 days


#11 posted 07-27-2010 12:38 AM

Ah, “Yes Minister”. I know the series well… Not a rousing salute to the bureaucrats that take care of government run agencies in any country.;0) I saw in the paper that there is a change afoot in GB to send the healthcare money directly to the General Practitioners and slice away a lot of the bureaucracy and red tape. Sounds a bit like we would used to have here. Hmm, more efficient they say? Reach more people quicker for less $$.
If there is a shortage of Drs., it’s for lack of incentive. Dedication and satisfaction of a job well done can never totally replace hard remuneration when it comes to paying back student loans and trying to make a life for one’s family. I think there should be a windfall tax on all athletes and entertainers that make more than $240,000 a year (just as our president promised to not touch those of us under that amount) to help pay to make insurance more accessible for more people. We could call it the BONO Bonanza! ;0) just sayin’

-- jack -- ...measure once, curse twice!

View BigTiny's profile

BigTiny

1664 posts in 1543 days


#12 posted 07-28-2010 02:28 AM

I believe the canuck politician being referred to was our late prime minister, Jean Chretien, who goes to a US clinic for not only his own health care needs, but sends all his family members there as well. The ultimate hypocrite, he fought tooth and nail against ANY fee for service health care here, while going outside the country himself to go to just such a facility! “It’s good enough for the common people, but not for ME!”
yarite…
I’ve often though the perfect solution for our friends south of the border would be to provide insurance for all, then charge according to ability to pay. NHL stars pay through the nose, while the poor slobs who can’t afford tickets to see them play get it free. Have the insurance companies runt it so the costs are kept under control.
IF they can get my back better, (it’s been 4 years since my first appointment, and I’ve had a total of FIVE actual treatment sessions) I might actually be able to get into the shop for more than a few minutes at a time…
When I had my first heart attck 6 years ago, it took me over a year to get tests any charity case woulkd have gotten in the emergency room in any major US hospital.

-- The nicer the nice, the higher the price!

View BigTiny's profile

BigTiny

1664 posts in 1543 days


#13 posted 07-28-2010 06:37 AM

Here’s another gripe of mine on this subject…he actual cost to train a doctor is close to a million dollars, but the students pay only about 10 to 15 percent of this. Therefore, the taxpayer picks up most of the cost, then kiss their money goodbye when the schmuck heads off to greener pastures, often leaving the taxpayers on the hook for their student loans as well. If they want to go to another country to earn more money, fine, but PAY US BACK FIRST!

The soapbox is now vacant. NEXT!

-- The nicer the nice, the higher the price!

View NBeener's profile

NBeener

4806 posts in 1829 days


#14 posted 07-28-2010 02:31 PM

Anecdotes (stories about a few, within a system comprising MANY) are interesting, but they never tell the whole story, and tend to mislead.

Canadians are happier with their health care system than Americans.

So are the citizens of many other countries.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117205/americans-not-feeling-health-benefits-high-spending.aspx

[the second article surveys ‘health,’ not ‘health care,’ but … hard to argue they’re not closely related ;-)]

And we spend MUCH more money on it than the other nations do—often/usually getting lesser outcomes FOR the $$$.

Anecdotes … are interesting.

Larger sample sizes … are always better :-)

-- -- Neil

View jack1's profile

jack1

1924 posts in 2682 days


#15 posted 07-29-2010 03:05 AM

Actually people in the US really do like their health care plans and Doctors. They don’t have a problem with getting more care to more people (we’re a pretty compassionate bunch WWI, WWII) but don’t want to lose what they pay/paid for or earned over a lifetime of work. They also don’t want to be taxed to death (i.e. BOSTON TEA PARTY, NO TAXATION WITHOUT SANE REPRESENTATION ;0) ...). I like BigTiny’s suggestion that the super jocks, Oprah’s and others like that pay through the yang to offset the freebies for the truly needy. Why should an entertainer earn 3/4 of a billion dollars a year when a teacher starts at less than $40,000 with 5+ years of college? The top 100 earners last year were in entertainment and sports. Not one was a CEO from what I read…
See, there’s lots of anecdotes with real people behind them. People shouldn’t deny them or use the word anecdote as a reason (club) to belittle those against a free ride or a reason to allow the free ride.
Next… ;0)

-- jack -- ...measure once, curse twice!

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