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SawStop or not?

12K views 49 replies 29 participants last post by  timbertailor 
#1 ·
Intro

There are a lot of debates swirling around the Internet when it comes to SawStop. You've got technology, political lobbying, lawsuits, and violence. Then there's the limited liability entity-is the founder a greedy overlord, benevolent finger savior, or something in between? In the hands of the right script writer, you could have a pretty intense TV drama or movie. But we don't have script writers here, so instead we have endless debate. Ughh…. I myself have hopped back and forth from one side of the fence to the other, so I'll try to boil down some of my thoughts and share what I've found in hopes that it will help someone else.
 
#2 ·
I hope you'll allow a few points of fact in your argument. You reference SawStop as a "greedy corporate overlord" in your description. SawStop is a private company, so exact information about its size isn't available; however, it is estimated to have 20-49 employees and annual sales of $1,000,000-$5,000,000. (By comparison, the same source lists Lie-Nielsen Toolworks as having 50-99 employees and $5,000,000-$10,000,000 in annual sales.) In contrast to SawStop, let's look at the other players in the table saw business. Powermatic is listed as having 50-99 employees and $10,000,000 - $25,000,000 in annual sales. Delta was sold to Stanley Black and Decker (market capitalization of $12,830,000,000), and then sold most recently (2011) to Chang Type Industrial Co., Ltd., a company based in Taiwan. Chang Type Industrial is traded on the Taiwan Stock Exchange, so we know it has a market capitalization of $46,296,600 and annual sales of $55,225,230 (in US$) according to today's stock price. It has approximately 300 employees. It produces tools under the brands of Ryobi, Craftsman, Black & Decker and Dewalt. Ridgid is a subsidiary of Emerson Electric Company, a Fortune 500 company with annual revenue of $24,222,000,000 and market capitalization of $46,010,000,000. As far as greedy corporate overlords go, I'd say SawStop is a minnow in that ocean. Just as a point of fact, SawStop is a tiny, tiny company compared to the other players in the industry. So for anyone imagining SawStop armed with a team of corporate lawyers, you can believe that if you want to but it isn't reality. I will not contribute to this thread again or read it and will not respond to any messages about it.
 
#3 ·
Furnitude, you're right; I should have checked SawStop's ownership structure…I was just going for something scary-sounding. As it turns out, they are an LLC, not a corporation. Anyway, that reference was one of three possibilities ("benevolent finger savior" and "something else in between" being the other two options) that I was including for dramatic effect. ;) I guess I'll have to think of some other scary title for them.
 
#4 ·
Do you really want to trust your fingers to electronics that might fail?

One of the arguments I've seen is about whether people should really trust the electronics. For better or worse, that ship has already sailed. We already know that we put our lives on the line every time we hop in a car. Although our safety is largely dependent on our own actions as drivers and the actions of other people, modern safety systems such as anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control improve your chances of avoiding or surviving an accident. In the ideal situation, you'll have multiple safety systems in place, and each of those will be redundant. For example, the safety-critical systems on commercial airplanes are triple-redundant. If the plane needs a sensor to do something, it actually has three. The downside is that all the redundancy comes at an enormous cost, so by the time you get down to the level of consumer products, you're lucky to have any safety system. You still need to practice some care in order for the safety system to do any good. In the worst-case scenario, if the safety system fails, you're probably no worse off than you were without it in the first place.

So what about when it does fail? After all, it's not uncommon for electronics to just fizzle out. If the capacitors on my computer's motherboard start leaking after a few years of service, what's to stop the same thing from happening in a table saw's electronic braking system? Fortunately, the SawStop safety system runs diagnostics every time you power on the saw. You would expect with so much on the line, these diagnostics should be very thorough, and that the parts of the system most likely to fail would be easily replaceable. But that still leaves so many open questions. Is there a certain useful life for a SawStop saw and/or brake cartridge? And if so, is it possible that SawStop might program their cartridges so you have to replace them every few years, even if the safety system has not been triggered? One Friday afternoon, I decided to ask SawStop:

Hi, I'm planning to buy a SawStop PCS this spring but have a few questions.

1. I know a lot of electronics deteriorate over time, and other safety devices such as smoke detectors and CO detectors need to be replaced every
5-10 years. If the brake is never triggered, how frequently will I need to replace the brake cartridge (or some other part of the braking system) just because it's old?

2. Is it based on number of hours the safety device is enabled, or a more general guideline such as every 5 years?

3. From the FAQ on your website I understand that the saw will run diagnostics on startup and will indicate whether the system is working correctly or not. If the brake cartridges have a recommended service life, is this artificially enforced? For example, if the service life is 1000 hours, does the brake effectively report to the saw that it no longer works after 1000 hours, or does it continue to work fine until the electronics are actually somehow compromised?

4. I've read that newer revisions of the saws get improved flesh-sensing technology. Do you only get this if you buy a new saw, or are these "upgrades" included in the brake cartridges themselves?

On the following Monday, I received this reply:

Thank you for contacting SawStop. In response to your request, there is no specific life span or recommended shelf life of our cartridges at this time. As you noted, the saw does a self check and should anything be wrong, the saw will exhibit a pattern of lights to make this known. We program the cartridges with the most up to date software as they ship, so it is not dependent on the saw. Thanks!

Don't wait for an accident, buy SawStop today

Amber Hayter
Sales Support Specialist
SawStop, LLC.

Although the response is somewhat generic, it does suggest that most of the electronics for the safety system are housed in the replaceable brake cartridge itself, and that the saw may only have the minimal amount of electronics to display the results of the power-on diagnostics. If you still don't trust the diagnostics and want to be really proactive, or if you just want the most up-to-date programming in your saw, I suppose you could just get into the habit of replacing your brake cartridge every 3-5 years. But the important thing to remember is that you are the primary safety system, and the saw's electronic safety system is just a backup.
 
#5 ·
Limited work on the top end SawStop. Comparable to top of the line cabinet saws. Watch the TV Wood shows. They still haven't figured how to use the safety guards that come with the top of the line saws-shame, shame. I have Delta Unisaw with good fence and all safety gear provided and I like it, feel safe but my next saw will be SawStop. I have seen too many injuries with saw blades and the technology seems effective in reducing incidents. If you have the Jack spend it on sawstop technology. s
 
#23 ·
The cheapest health insurance you can buy?

In a recent thread about tool recommendations for a new shop, I made a comment that a SawStop saw is the cheapest health insurance you can buy. Most people don't plan on cutting off their fingers on their table saws, and many woodworkers are quick to point out that the likelihood of any individual woodworker being seriously injured by a table saw on any given day is pretty slim. Frankly, I agree with both those comments and don't intend to argue against them, but I do want to clarify my comment likening SawStop to insurance.

The cheapest health insurance I've ever had was something like $120/mo., back when I was in college and for more than a year after college. That's $1440/yr. With rising healthcare costs and the healthcare reform's new prohibition against age discrimination, I'm sure the same level of coverage would be at least double or triple that today. Not once during that time did I need to use the health insurance. That's a lot of money down the drain, right? Well, for a while I didn't have health insurance, and even though I was young and healthy and almost broke, I thought a hundred bucks a month was worth the peace of mind knowing I wouldn't be completely screwed if something did happen.

You typically don't buy any major insurance expecting to use it for a worst-case scenario. You don't have homeowner's insurance because you expect your house to burn down, or car insurance because you expect to injure someone else or damage someone else's property while operating your car. Although you might expect to use your health insurance for routine check-ups and medication, most people don't expect to have to use it for surgery or an emergency room visit. Most types of insurance exist "just in case" something unexpected happens.

And that brings me to the idea of SawStop as cheap insurance. How long do you plan to live? Even if you think you might meet your maker in only 5 years and if the SawStop saw costs $2000 more than a used but similar-quality competing saw, that's less than $34/month for finger insurance. Ugh…now I'm starting to sound like one of those annoying real-life salesmen: "Show your fingers you care, for only about a dollar a day!"

The nice thing is, once it's paid for, you never have to pay another premium. Just like insurance, you generally only have to pay your "deductible" if an accident actually happens. But even if you have an occasional non-flesh activation, it's still not that expensive in the long run.

Here is a comparison of the deductibles:

Health insurance: minimum $100-$300 out-of-pocket ER charge (with insurance), plus follow-up visits
SawStop: typically $100-$200 (cartridge+blade+Band-Aid), depending on the quality of the blade and whether you repair or replace it

Unfortunately, it's possible you'll still have to visit the ER even with a SawStop if your hand was moving faster than a hot dog when you made contact with the blade. But the hope is that the damage won't be as severe.

In the end, whether or not to drink the SawStop Kool-Aid is a personal decision that only you can make. My purpose here was to maybe give you a different perspective from which you can mull over your decision.
 
#24 ·
I think you make a good point. IMO, it could also be applied to other woodworking tools with safety features, and even other table saw like the sliding table variety. Also for really good dust collection as that problem may not be obvious until further down the road when it's too late.
 
#29 ·
Ugh--Evil SawStop, and an industry that you think loves you (but they really hate your fingers)

By now everyone knows SawStop has evil lobbyists and lawyers trying to force their technology on us.

Like many people, I was really wrapped up in this lobbying issue. For those who aren't familiar with the effort, SawStop was trying to push through a government regulation that would require an advanced safety system like SawStop's brake (oh, how convenient-SawStop makes those!) to be included on all new table saws.

To-date such a feature has not been forced on anyone by the government lobbyists, but the riving knives you find on all modern table saws in the US are the result of other safety regulations that did become law. Despite the lack of a government-enforced regulation requiring a SawStop-like technology, the reality has hit some corporate-owned shops. For example, a major publishing corporation near my hometown replaced all their table saws with SawStop saws after someone had an accident and the corporation's lawyers found out there was a product on the market that could help prevent or limit the severity of such accidents.

There are always two sides to the coin. SawStop's recent legal suit against several manufacturers alleges that the industry giants colluded to block the technology from widespread adoption by agreeing not to license it. I also read something recently (maybe in one of the same articles) that a joint industry venture actually did produce an alternative safety system, but that system was never brought to market. Either it wasn't cost-effective or it just didn't work…or everyone but SawStop just wants to chop off your fingers. Ironically, if SawStop's lobbying had been successful, their technology would have some competition, and saws without compliant safety systems would fly off the shelves for months or years until the compliance deadline went into effect, and would continue to sell on eBay long afterward.

I think it's fair to say that Steven Gass didn't invent his blade brake with purely altruistic intentions. From an ideological perspective, I personally think if Gass (or at least the SawStop legal counsel) wants to preach about how SawStop only wants to prevent injuries and that the rest of the industry is self-serving and evil, he should give away the technology, as Volvo did with the seatbelt-or make it really cheap. Otherwise he seems disingenuous, at best. But that's just my opinion. If you check out the SawStop wikipedia page, the Power Tool Institute and its members do seem to have some valid objections to the technology, including some questions about liability, should the braking system fail.

Ultimately we have to make our own decisions for our own reasons, but if I found out tomorrow that Volvo tested their original seatbelt designs by crashing cars filled with baby seals, and that they accepted secret kickbacks from the Swedish Mafia for "giving away" their invention, I would be furious! However, I wouldn't compromise my own safety on ideological grounds and make a point to buy my next car without seatbelts.

Ok, I'm done for now. Feel free to post additional comments. Or if you're feeling really constructive, include links to news stories and other SawStop debates on this website and others.
 
#30 ·
If you go to any Woodcraft store, They can show you blades and brakes that their customers have brought in when they came to replace them. Some may be misfires from sawing the wrong thing, but mostly what I hear that they say man that thing saved my "__"

Politics aside the goal is safe woodworking. I feel much safer with my Saw Stop.
 
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