LumberJocks

Old Sargent Planes #2: Typing the type 2 or 3 409c (or maybe 5409)

  • Advertise with us
Blog entry by Don W posted 339 days ago 1221 reads 1 time favorited 16 comments Add to Favorites Watch
« Part 1: The type 1 #409 Pre lateral Part 2 of Old Sargent Planes series Part 3: Determining a 408 versus 5408 »

So again I find myself engrossed in the type information found in Dave Heckel’s guide, and HMike's Blog.

I bought this because real early corrugated planes are not as common place as some others. And as usually dating them can be a bit of a challenge.

The lever cap has the number and the cap, which means it could be a type 1, 2 or 3.

The frog puts it around a type 3, assuming all type 2’s had the horseshoe lateral.

The base also put it at a type 3. The thin casting and squared post seem to correspond to type 3 as well.

The adjuster however puts it at a type 2, with the steel insert. The steel insert however is on ALL 5400 series.

The iron is also a clear type 2 iron with the oval logo and USA in the center. For some reason though, Heckel did a separate study on the irons, so you’ll need to match date, not types, so you have a type 1 iron, that’s typically on a type 1 and type 2 plane.

So here it is in all its glory.

My guess at this point is I found one of the Sargent enthusiast well sought after 5409, but a least a very early 409c, with Sargent using up some of the parts. Of course there is also the possibility that its a very late 5409, with sargent using some of the new 409C inventory on the plane. Further investigation may be needed.

EDIT:
Here is another which is pretty much identical.

EDIT **

I now believe the first is a 5409, the second a #409, here is why.

Working through the criteria for a 5400 series.
Here is what they both have.
- corrugated
- a blank cap
- Cutter marked with Oval Trademark with U.S.A. in center
- Two-piece cutter adjusting nut, brass with a steel insert for the threads
- PAT. FEB. 3 -91 on lateral lever (this is for both type 2 and type 3 laterals. They were issued the same day)
- They can have either the horseshoe or 2nd pivot lateral style to be a 5400 series. These both have the second.
- # 400 series plane number might or might not be on plane body. usually not, neither of these have it
- Rosewood knob and tote

Here is where they are different.

To be a 5400 series it must have the thin casting. So determining the thin casting isn’t as straight forward. Here are my 2.

So look not only at the side walls, but the back of the mouth. The difference in the casting is evident. I believe the one on the right is the thick casting, and the one on the left is thin.

So I weighed them as well. The one on the right was 25.6 oz, where the one on the left was 21.6 oz.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com



16 comments so far

View Handtooler's profile

Handtooler

1055 posts in 734 days


#1 posted 339 days ago

What ever the vintage she’s a real beauty. Collector or user for you; of the Ft Knox of hand planes?

-- Russell Pitner Hixson, TN 37343 bassboy40@msn.com

View WayneC's profile

WayneC

12255 posts in 2699 days


#2 posted 339 days ago

Pretty plane. Did you find it this way or did you restore?

-- We must guard our enthusiasm as we would our life - James Krenov

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1516 days


#3 posted 339 days ago

Well done Don! I think you are probably right about it being a late #5409 (even though these were only produced for 3-years). The lack of a number on the base combined with the thin casting and corrugation, pretty much boxes it into that 1908-9 time frame for sure. Definitely Pre-VBM.

The way I understand things is that when Sargent corrugated planes came out, they needed to change/modify their numbering system so they started making the corrugated bases “without” a number. What confuses me is that I see/own smooth base planes without numbers in their bases as well. Hmm…

I am jealous!

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#4 posted 339 days ago

Thanks Mike.

Wayne, this is exactly how I bought it. I wheeled and dealed with for 3 or 4 plane, so this was about $25.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View AnthonyReed's profile

AnthonyReed

4382 posts in 1042 days


#5 posted 339 days ago

You are on a roll. Congrats.

-- ~Tony

View Mauricio's profile

Mauricio

6749 posts in 1753 days


#6 posted 324 days ago

Very nice!

-- Mauricio - Woodstock, GA - "Confusion is the Womb of Learning, with utter conviction being it's Tomb" Prof. T.O. Nitsch

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#7 posted 286 days ago

I took a risk a snagged another one of these. Cost was $15 to my door on ebay.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#8 posted 229 days ago

I believe I’ve found one more but a 5408.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#9 posted 228 days ago

After an email exchange with Dave Heckel, I no longer believe any of these are of the 5400 series. All 5400’s should have the horseshoe lateral. Just old #400’s.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#10 posted 220 days ago

So the above statement is wrong. (#9)

see original post edit.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1516 days


#11 posted 91 days ago

OK Don,
I’ve been reading old posts and just came across this, some 4 months later.

Quite literally, I think David Heckel has some explaining to do.
  • On one hand he publishes that all #5400 series have Horseshoe laterals
  • On the other hand, he also published that those Horseshoe laterals on the #5400 series all have the “two-piece” steel sleeve adjuster nut.
IMO, he/it cannot be both ways. I say that because of:
  • EVERY Horseshoe lateral plane I have ever picked up, they ALL HAD PURE BRASS adjuster nuts.
  • Every Twisted 2nd Lateral plane I have ever picked up, they ALL HAD STEEL SLEEVE INSERTS on the adjusting nut.
  • Every such plane I have seen on fleaBay, and I constantly puruse for deals, has followed the above criteria.
  • A major flaw in David’s interpretation, IMO, is that he failed to include a plane casting study in his last book. Charles (who authored the Shaw’s Patent insert in the book) offered such information to David at the time, but David chose not include that information. While I understand directly from Charles that his casting information was not a complete study (nor is David’s), Charles’ information could have been very useful in making the distinctions between the #5400s series and the #400s series.

Bottom line is that, directly from David’s same 2004 2nd Ed. book, all TEN of the #400 ”C” series iron planes DID NOT have any instances of “thin castings”. A typo happens once, and not repeated 10 times! Thus the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the thin casting corrugated planes have to be part of the #5400 series.

I understand that your mileage may vary and you may not agree with my assessment. All I can say is that while David has given us a great tool in publishing his 2004 Sargent 2nd Ed. Value Guide, that we should not close our eyes to additional pertinent information about Sargent planes, in particular the castings. After all, only the casting cannot be swapped out without changing the entire plane’s identity.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#12 posted 91 days ago

David’s article for mwtca, he states that the 5400 could have either the horseshoe or 2nd lateral type. He also mentions he left out the 5415, so add 1 more.

I don’t disagree with you at all Mike. I have flip flopped back and forth on this a dozen times.

I agree the determining factor (assuming either lateral on a 5400 is true) would be the base. The base changed in 1906-7 and that’s also when the 5400 came out. So if we can determine exactly what the base for a 1907-1910 400 series should look like, differentiate it with everything else, and add the other criteria, we can identify the 5400 series. It sounds clear in the text you posted from Charles, but when you start looking at the different configurations of the time period, they tend to melt together somewhat.

And I hope I don’t jinx myself, but I’m pretty sure I have a type 1 #414 coming, and another 5409. All in the $20 range. We’ll see.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View HorizontalMike's profile

HorizontalMike

6915 posts in 1516 days


#13 posted 91 days ago

Don: ”...And I hope I don’t jinx myself, but I’m pretty sure I have a type 1 #414 coming, and another 5409. All in the $20 range. We’ll see….”

Just to compete with the Dons of the World ;-) I just received TODAY another #5408! And I also have a #5414 on the way as well. We are lookin’ gooood!

Newer #5408 has #408 on thin casting. Blank on older 5408 in back (still thin casting). Both have original Rosewood totes & knobs in very nice shape.

My newest #5408 in front. Older one in back.

(below) Steel sleeved Brass LEFT and Pure Brass on right.

NOTE: Both my 5409 and 5408 with Horseshoe Laterals have round posts and pure brass adjusting nuts. The 5408 with the twisted 2nd Lateral has the steel sleeve. I ALSO have a #5414 on its way and that has the 2nd twisted Lateral, and I just bet that it will have square posts and steel sleeved adjuster. And just like the other unmarked casting.

-- HorizontalMike -- "Woodpeckers understand..."

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#14 posted 91 days ago

That’s in nice shape Mike.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

View Don W's profile

Don W

14652 posts in 1169 days


#15 posted 87 days ago

not nearly as pretty as yours Mike, but a complete type 1, including the original type 1 cutter. Its got a fresh coat of dupli drying and parts soaking in citric.

What I thought might be a 540x turned out to not even be a Sargent. Its got a twisted lat but the Stanley washer type engagement ring on the lat. Union maybe? I’d be bummed, but the type 1 was enough for me.

-- Master hand plane hoarder. - http://timetestedtools.com

showing 1 through 15 of 16 comments

Have your say...

You must be signed in to post the comments.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

GardenTenders.com :: gardening showcase