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What is TALENT and who has it?

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#1 ·
What is TALENT and who has it?

What is TALENT?
What to do about it

In today's blog, I want to talk about talent. Everybody tells me, when they see my woodworking or the pictures I make by hand or with a camera, "Oh, you're so TALENTED". I'm flattered, of course, but in my mind I want to quibble with that.
The word talent, as with so many words, has lost its real meaning. Most of the time it's used to indicate appreciation of good work. When someone, take as an example a knitter, makes a beautiful sweater or hat, some will explain, "Oh, I wish I had your talent".
Well, that always gets me, because I know, for myself, that I am NOT a talented woodworker or a talented painter or a talented photographer. And I know that the knitter worked hard to get the SKILL to knit beautifully.
Why do I say that? Because I understand the meaning of the WORD. Words means something. When their meaning is lost and the words are used in some other way we don't communicate well.

Fussy? Yeah, I guess so. I'm a geek and always have been. I have a picture of me at about age four or five that shows just how geeky I was then. I've always been geeky.

So I obsess about words. Communication has always been important to me. Maybe I'm worried that other people will misunderstnd me. Actually, people have always misunderstood me. I think that misunderstanding is common and often leads to unnecessary hurt feelings or even anger.
So don't get mad at me, OK? I just want to clear the air about one word, "talent". I don't mean to criticize.

What is the real meaning of the word?
One dictionary definition is this, endowment, gift, natural endowment."
If something I can do was a GIFT, it is something I was born with. However, I was not born with any natural gift for art. I wanted to acquire ability, but I didn't have it at the beginning, when I first decided I wanted to be an artist. I must have admired the work of other artists and just wanted to emulate them.
Actually, I worked hard for many years to be able to draw and what I got for my trouble was ABILITY, not talent. I got experience, and at some basic level, could draw fairly well.

And then, after some study, I found out that nearly every person with a normal brain possessed a natural ability to draw! Really! It's TALENT!
For most people in modern society, however, the brain processes that permit us to draw what we see with our eyes is suppressed in schools that emphasize left brain activity. That means things like heavy emphasis on mathematics, memorization and so forth.

But. I digress. My point is this: One doesn't get to have talent. Talent is inborn. It is manifested before training. So a child who toddles over to the family piano and begins playing music is indeed talented.
A child who, from the start, has a beautiful singing voice and good pitch, is talented.
But one can't have a talent for building electronic devices, for example. There's nothing natural about that. The ability for things like that, having a tendency or desire to work with electronics, I think, comes from another talent, one which seems to be unrecognized, and that is the natural ability or gift of LEARNING.
Think about it. The desire to learn is supremely important in getting the ability to do things which are not natural. Singing is natural. Building a computer is not. I can do both, but I don't believe that the abilities I have in those endeavors are talents. They are acquired experience. Before I discovered the natural way of drawing I was struggling to do it by practice. But Talent doesn't work that way.
Talent is precious and must be carefully protected and developed if it is to be of any benefit to its owner. If one shows native ability to draw and paint that one should be exposed to teaching that promotes the Talent. Otherwise, the natural gift will wither. Talented singers, for example, without training to bring the Talent forth, will remain at the level of ability they had when born and will not progress to become great singers.
My woodworking, whether it is common or not, isn't the product of talent, it comes from practice and learning. My Talent, if I have one, is Learning. I love learning. I've been promoting my own education all my life. I even love tests! I think that comes from my love of learning. So, I've learned woodworking because of my natural ability to learn, and I applied that ability toward acquiring SKILL in woodworking. Skill and Talent aren't the same things!

Now, don't misunderstand. When I say I am skilled not talented at something, that doesn't imply there is something of less value about it. Talent is the same as aptitude, and it steers us in ways that allow us to become skilled in that particular work. I think many so-called artists have no natural talent and prove it by slopping paint on a canvas and representing it as Art. If they have talent, they haven't developed it. Using art materials is a skill and if one has artistic Talent, that must be developed until the Talent blooms. Picasso seems to have had Talent, as exhibited in his "Blue Period" but later discovered that people would pay big money for childish and unnatural paintings, he stopped developing his talent.
I hope you notice that I used the upper case "T" where the Talent is cherished and developed. Where it is ignored or unused I don't capitalize the word. That's deliberate. I mean to show appreciation for Talent well used.
May all of you find and cherish your own Talents.

Don Butler June 2, 2010
 
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#2 ·
Don
Yes, that is how I understand the word. Unfortuanately, I am going to guess that I don't have a great talent for woodworking, although I will probably develop what little aptitude I have enough to enjoy it. Aptitude is a close synonym. And talent is a relative thing, meaning you may be talented in an arena, but still you can't make a living at it because relative to others with talent you don't stand out. There are degrees of talent. It is not an all or nothing thing.

I may have some talent for making gizmos and designing things. That is my engineering talent showing through. But I suspect I will never make anything very wonderful to look at. I tested out when in high school, as having strongest aptitude for engineering….........and secretarial work….......(-:

So I enjoy making gizmos, you know, jigs, fixtures, etc to help with making…...............more jigs, fixtures and gizmos…........(-:

.........and I find I can do repetitive tasks over and over again without making errors….....the secretarial thing.

I do have a few other talents, and I have been labeled in those arenas correctly. A couple I have developed, another not, on purpose. My strongest talents are work related. Perhaps those are the obvious ones because they have been developed.

Jim
 
#3 ·
I agree with you in more than one way. seems like words are losing their meanings in today's world as they are used and abused. It's nice to sometimes stop and think of a word and actually realize it's true meaning which gives it so much more power.

As for 'Talent' - I believe 'talent' is someone's ease of getting the hang of something and be natural with it. that being said - even a talented person (pianist, painter, engineer, woodworker,anything else) will not go far without learning, practicing, and developing skills.
 
#4 ·
How many levels of talent exist? I do not believe there is only one level of talent. Work has been created by people that I consider talented and have seen work from people that I consider extrremely talented. There is alot of in-between talent. I do not consider myself a talented woodworker but I do have a passion for it that I know I have had all my life.
When in high school I knew numerous people who started playing musical instruments. I always remember one particular person who was so far superior in his musical skills on the guitar after just a couple of years of playing. I remember older musicians who haad been playing 40-50 years saying they would never reach his skill level..Some called him a prodigy….is this the same as talent?
Does talent automatically make a person creative or is creatitivity a whole different area? Who knows?
 
#6 ·
"Words mean something. When their meaning is lost and the words are used in some other way we don't communicate well."
Thank you, Don. I know your post is slanted toward praise and 'talent,' which is, after all, only the result of repeated practice and skill building, but to a writer, your bringing this up is much appreciated. I contend the slurring of the language is one big factor in the decline of the whole society, and I hope people can become aware of its effects and do what we can to be more precise and communicate better.
 
#7 ·
I usually avoid using the word "talent" and instead use something more specific because I'm not sure what people will think when I use it. But Jim's version seems about right to me.

I agree that words mean something. Using them to mean something different than their standard definitions does make communication less effective.

On the other hand, communication is not well served by those that get preoccupied by less than optimal word choice, grammar, or spelling. Effective communication requires a good-faith effort from both the speaker/writer and listener/reader.

I am skeptical that slurring of language is a modern phenomena. Rather, I suspect it is as old as human speech and simply reflects a diminished interest in sharing ideas by those that do it.

I particularly dislike the comment "I wish I had your talent" and its ilk. When I parse those words I end up with a message that I find somewhat offensive, although rarely do I think the speaker actually meant anything of the sort. The usual intent is pretty well approximated by Jim's version, which is why I like it.
 
#8 ·
AWESOME…............yet another word so often misused.

I do not often read something so long as it bores me to death but I read your post from beginning to end and enjoyed it very much and I also agree whole heartedly.

My mother recently gave me ALL of my report cards through grade school and high school. Without exception there was always a comment from the teacher about my art work and how my folks might let me develop it further on in my education. Sadly but respectfully, my folks wanted nothing to do with it but I have always taken pen and brush to paper which has later moved to carving. So many can carve a bird that is anotomically perfect but most cannot "capture" and attitude, personality, one is skill, the other is talent.

I will forever remember the post on Talent and talent and the next time some body says I am "talented" I will correct them and let them know that I am Talented.

If I could only type and spell…..that would be awesome !!
 
#9 ·
Don

"I think many so-called artists have no natural talent and prove it by slopping paint on a canvas and representing it as Art. If they have talent, they haven't developed it. ... Picasso seems to have had Talent, as exhibited in his "Blue Period" but later discovered that people would pay big money for childish and unnatural paintings, he stopped developing his talent."

For someone who claims to be "obsess about words", your statement of what constitutes a legitimate artistic act reveals a remarkably limited opinion. While I am not particularly interested in the work of Picasso it is simply false to dismiss his work as his deliberate ploy to make 'big money' and anyone with even a little understanding of the history of art should be able to understand this.
 
#12 ·
I think Don has pointed out what is happening to a word, whether we want it to or not. Talent used to be understood to mean what Don says it means. But its popular meaning is drifting.

It's like the word 'hero'. Used to be you had to risk your life to be a hero. Now all you have to do is impress someone in any field of endeavour from tiddlywinks to professional sports to politics. It has lost its former meaning. Is there a good substitute for this word? Unfortunately none comes to mind. And that is sad. Someone out there got a different word?

There is no question in my mind that the original meaning of 'talent' is a real item. There are people with no aptitude for some things, and others that have an extraordinary talent. And no amount of work will offset having no aptitude.

But someone with a modest aptitude, and just a whole lot of perserverance can rise to the top, because a lot of the truly talented, don't make the most of it. They lack other personal attributes.

This is a woodworking forum, so bringing the concept to bear on our issues in this forum seems appropriate. Woodworking is not like some disciplines. It covers a tremendous range of artisty, inventiveness, manual skills, engineering, etc. There is no 'best' kind of furniture, or ultimate shape of a bowl, or holy grail of the most rustic, or finest finish. It is an extremely varied and complex discipline. It's not like quibbling about which is better, a Steinway or a Yamaha piano. There is no best 'sound'.

The LJ's product has an extraordinary range of purpose, price, durability, and taste. Be it a jig, a cane, a fine table, a bowl, a cutting board, a pen, a utilitarian chair, etc. There is no level of 'talent' you must have to be a woodworker, because the product and the techniques needed to make it, vary too much. And there are too many processes in the production of the usual project to make a specific level of talent absolutely necessary for any individual step.

Making it a truly egalitarian pursuit. A niche somewhere for everyone.

.............might even find a place for a feckless woodworker like me…...........(-:

Here in Anchorage 66 degrees, sun is shining, sky is blue, bees are all over the back yard crabapple tree, now in full bloom, doing something they have great talent for….........making honey, and pollinating the plants and trees….......a win-win situation if ever there was one…............

Alaska Jim
 
#13 ·
Wow, AJ, those were some bold statements ;-).

Don, I agree that we as a society often confuse talent with aptitude. I am walking proof that all the talent in the world will not help you with something that you have not aptitude for.

I've got a good ear for music, pleasant voice, and understand musicality, but after years of practicing a trombone I could never get the instrument to speak as it was meant to, mellow and smoothe (it's the reason the bell is flared so wide from the cone of the instrument, to soften the sound. This vs. the sackbut, the predecessor to the trombone, which had a very cone-shaped bell with hardly a lip at all). Took me a while to find my instrument (flute), but I found it.

Everyone, thanks for sharing, even the occasional opinion police ;-).
 
#14 ·
Talent
Everyone has a natural talent for one thing or another. Various talents gathered together can produce something really wonderful.
A marriage can be a great success when complimenting talents are combined, as can be also a be a business.

I'm looking for someone who knows woodworking!
 
#15 ·
What a suprise topic… What about the non-english speaking talented people? They don't even know how primitive they may be… without education.. so called aborigins … here we ifugao, tasadays, or any any other ethnic groups who lives from ancestral learning. But they (the primitive) can wave bamboos, they could carve quickly and good designs of bridges without any mechanical means. Is this the same TALENT we are talking about or the Talent, or the talent ..
What I understand.. We should not relate any words verbally or vocabularically or dictionarily. What is important is how, where, who, what, where the word TALENT was used? It may be sarcastic or methapor or a phraise. Dont be literal. When somebody speaks, I always look around and see what the situation is thinking of the REALITY that the words used CONNOTES or gives the meaning. REMEMBER ACTION SPEAKS LAUDER THAN WORDS…
 
#18 ·
Hello, jl, we meet again,

There are a lot of things I want to comment on, but the whole premise here is too flawed to wait. Words do not have absolute meanings. Do we truly think we're using words they same way as when they were invented? What does "gay" mean: happy, homosexual, wrong, stupid (this is rhetorical)? Language is always evolving. The "real" meaning is determined by popular opinion. I used to be a stickler, but I've accepted it. It can be frustrating because without established meanings, it can be hard to communicate. However, if someone gets the point across, can they really have used the wrong words? There was an article recently about the speed at which a word can be invented, disseminated, and accepted as legitimate. Webster doesn't decide which words are real anymore; try Wiktionary, or maybe Urban Dictionary.

We discussed talent in the 207 recently. It sprang from a discussion of design. I said that people don't design because it's perceived as a talent. I don't believe it is (because I don't believe anything is talent). I say it's a skill. This was my last post on the subject:

The debate about talent has a significant problem relating to the definition of talent. My issue is more with the "talent" at particular tasks: woodworking, soccer, math, etc. I find a broader usage more acceptable: talented with your hands or feet, or at problem solving. I take issue with the belief that you must be talented to succeed at a high level. As Malcolm Gladwell points out in Outliers, if you search among world class "talents," you'll find many of the hardest workers in their fields.

Stream of consciousness could be talent's cryptic whispers. I tend to relate talent to some loose blend of genetics and experience in no particular ratio. As such, one's past would certainly affect the course of his or her 'stream.' I completely agree that this is not a desirable way to design, or do much of anything. The "practice" of design, as I see it now, is a way of working with these flowing connections. I certainly want to allow myself to freely associate, but I also want to be able to consciously direct the process at times.

Eli
 
#19 ·
In my contry (Denmark), we have a famous book about drawing called 'to draw are to see', but in the years I was teaching drawing for Constructing architects, I told them: 'the truth are - to draw are to sit on your butt and do it'.
But yes during the years I meet some very gifted or talented students, they were born with the gift to see, and then put what they see on the paper, not allways what was the 'truth' but what they coud see, and I think this must bee the artists gift, to be able to transform what you see in to the paper.
For me I have a gift for harmony, but for the rest, my God I still work hard every day, even I draw a lot.
The woodworking - I'm just on the doorstep of a big new world.
Thank you for the wonderful post.
 
#20 ·
To put a finer point on the subject -
I'm not trying to force anyone to accept a rigid definition of the word talent, or any other word.
However, I'm distressed when some people who do not have a talent, let's say for singing, but are said to be talented.
It grates on me for two reasons.
1. To say one is talented fails to give credit for hard work, learning, practice and determination. I know people don't mean to denigrate, but that's the effect.
2. The word is often applied to people who plainly don't have talent. A student of a certain discipline, again, let's say singing, may have learned their craft well and have great technical ability in their singing, but that spark, that almost indefinable difference, the thing that sets a truly talented singer apart from others, is missing. The person may sing well, perhaps even very well, but does not have the talent. Education and practice may take a student to great lengths, but their performance does not, almost never can, rise to the heights

I work hard at learning the woodworking craft. But, it's obvious to me that I do not possess the inborn gift for it. When someone says I'm talented, I'm embarrassed. I don't want to claim talent when I know I don't have it.
Whether or not others have talent is also something I find hard to discern.
One woodworker may exhibit such great skill that I might mistake for talent, or (head spinning) the real talent, the gift, IS there, but I can't tell.
Yes, the word is slippery.
But what I mean when I say it is not what I hear others saying and that bothers me from a communication standpoint.
Do others mean the same thing I mean when we say the word?

Drat!
English is so confusing.
But it's the only language I'm fluent with.

I hope not to stir up a "tempest in a teapot", to use another odd English expression.

db
 
#21 ·
Words are 95% or better of human communication. It defines how we are different from other animals. It is what allows us to progress and change over the millenia. History and accumulaing wisdom. Precision in language is essential to communication. I don't accept the slippery slope of changing definitions. If words keep changing, then there is no real comminication.

Just entertainment.

I see changes…......better put, political changes, in medical language. It is not only something I revolt against, it compromises patient care.

There are precise languages…..........math, science, etc…....

But they only cover a small fraction of human endeavour.

OK, this is a WoodWorking Community. How do we teach and describe what we have done? Pictures yes, but the fine and important details are in the words. And we know what they mean, because there is some precision in the meaning of those words.

There is nothing funny about changing definitions of words…..........it will harm people.

Don, your concern is not trivial, trust me, it affects people's lives.

I live it, and I know…........

Jim
 
#22 ·
Don,

My concern is less with the dichotomy your definition of talent creates: haves and have-nots. By your argument, some people, the "talentless," no matter how hard they try, can never ever be the best. They can never, despite everything they might do, be truly fantastic. I disagree with your argument and hate this conclusion. If talent is such a differential, then why do the best have to work so hard? What is the threshold, anyway? 2nd place? 5th place? This is only my view, though. There's no reason for anyone to feel uncomfortable or back-pedal or try to make me feel good. I don't feel bad because I don't see it that way. I'm perfectly comfortable hating an idea without any sense of ire or resentment. I say that I hate it because it is a harmful conclusion drawn from a convincingly weak argument. What if a kid is reading this?

Jim,

I don't think evolving language is a slippery slope. The concept itself, that language changes over time does not suggest some distant, yet inevitable conclusion. Ironically, your suggesting that it does, is a slippery slope. Additionally, I do feel that you are begging the question. Your premise and conclusion are effectively the same: communication is mostly words, so without words there's no communication. A is B because A is B.

Where did you get that statistic? Ignoring the unreliability of statistics, I've always heard quite the opposite: that communication is much more about look and sound than the actual words. Take the internet, for example. I'd imagine that most internet users have run into an issue of tone. Say someone posts a seriously flawed piece of furniture and a commenter says, "Nice work." What do they mean? Is it genuine or sarcastic? Now imagine the situation in real life. Even if the commenter spoke another language, you could tell by their expression and their tone what they really meant. This shortcoming of words led to the "/sarcasm" meme. This is one of the major complaints about the internet, texting, twitter, etc. It is much harder to understand someone without seeing their face or hearing their voice.

I do agree with your statement that Don's concern affect's lives. Give up on your dreams now children! If you don't have talent, you don't have a chance!

/hyperbole

Eli

Edited for grammar and syntax.
 
#23 ·
To elaborate on the "convincingly weak argument" bit. You are basing your gripe about the word "talent" on it's last popular definition. The basis of your argument is "that's how they guy before me used it." Many people will find that perfectly acceptable and move right along to your further points. I'm questioning that initial assumption, thereby questioning the whole discussion based on it.

Upon further review, I'm very confused. Your separation of talent, aptitude, ability, and skill goes against what my thesaurus is telling me. I'm not sure what you are really saying about talent. We may actually be in agreement.

I do heartily disagree with your blaming math for loss of drawing ability. Left-brain emphasis means left-brain emphasis. It does not mean math emphasis. In most primary and secondary schools, math is taught in a mundane matter, but mathematics itself not only requires creativity and ingenuity, but has been intertwined with "talented" artists through history: the Golden Ratio, classical proportions, music. I believe Da Vinci was a fan.

Eli
 
#24 ·
Oh, I hope I didn't give the impression (lack of communications skills?) that I separate hard work and education from talent or that talent is necessary to success.

As to the left/right brain abilities -
let me give an example.
Managing a business requires a great number of abilities. The dominant skill for managing a business is a left brain one. Having everything in its place, having a name and number for everything, these are essential to understanding what is happening in the business.
But it also requires people skills. Whether one has employees or not, the business interfaces with vendors, customers and perhaps advertising people. if one has poor people skills, the business will suffer, though not necessarily collapse.
Another skill for managers is future vision. Recognising when the direction of the company needs to alter course to be ready for the next great thing will make the difference in growing the business or its being stagnant.
I have, in over a half century of managing and advising other companies and managing my own business, seen "successful" managers who were seriously flawed because of the complete lack of one or more of the necessary traits listed above.
For example, I was working for a company that manufactured packaging for other companies. This was about thirty years ago. the business was not especially doing well and was considering closing some of its manufacturing locations. I suggested that they consider opening the business open to the general public, taking items from individuals, packaging them well and shipping them to the destination by UPS.
I was told by the manager of that company that such a business would have no success. In fact I was told that the very idea was ridiculous. Anybody hear of Mailboxes, Inc which was bought out by UPS?
This manager was so intent on th bottom line of his ledger, he couldn't envision a new product.
That business actually experienced a miserable and complete collapse. They had a product whose time had passed. Not only could they not consider my idea but they didn't look at new methods and materials for their own product line.
Hard work and education and the ability to see the future are certainly essential to business endeavors. But that requires being able to access both left and right brain abilities. Mere numbers will not make a business success.
Senior daVinci would absolutely have agreed. He was supremely able to use both brain states simultaneously!
db
 
#26 ·
I think this discussion is perhaps at a greater depth now than I want to persue it. So, my final comment.

I know I definitely have a precision slant to my thoughts about words, because I use a large number of precise, and somewhat obtuse terms in my profession. And I have a pet peeve about the imprecision that takes disease entities like autism, and because of imprecision, it appears that there are markedly more autistic children than there used to be. Best I can tell, it is mostly a slide in the meaning of the term, such that now almost anybody with a mental handicap may be labelled autistic. But that led many people to suspect there was an epidemic of autism, then the next logical jump was that it must be vaccinations, and then the next jump was for some people to stop vaccinating their children. That last far fetched conclusion kills people.

Imprecision can kill people. Sloppy use of words in a recreational sense, well, who cares. I don't. But when it gets into serious disciplines, nasty things happen.

I agree with Eli, talent, meaning an attribute we are born with, is probably a broad aptitude for certain types of endeavour. I watched my youngest daughter start out in music, with voice being her primary interest. She then shifted to a more scientific education, thinking about medicine, toyed with organic chemistry for a while….......and ended up a general surgeon, currently doing a minimally invasive recto/colo fellowship. Hmmm. Breadth of aptitude. Her foremost aptitude must be tolerance for about 15 years of higher education…..........(-:

Signing off here, this is a little to far beyond woodworking for me to linger…...........

Thanks for the great discussion, all. Fine topic, Don.

Jim
 
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