Grumbles from the shop #2: Support your local cabinet maker

I know the frustration first hand

-- Todd A. Clippinger, Montana, http://amcraftsman.com

I have a slight problem sometimes when friends and family brag about how much they spent at a big box store, instead of asking me if I’d like to offer a bid for whatever they need done.

I even have extended family out in Jarrod Zion Murphree’s (Eagle Nest, NM.) neighborhood that spent a ton of money on Hickory cabinets in the kitchen at Home Depot. When I found out how much and how long it took to get the cabinets, 4-5 months lead time, I smiled (on the outside) and told him, I could have made them to his specs, and delivered and installed them (1000+ miles) and saved him money. (on the inside I was cursing him for wasting his money and not offering me a chance). He’s been building this house for 2 years, while living in Manhattan, NY. and thinks because he HAD the money he should spend it all. Now the house won’t be complete until at least late summer, because he’s run out of money form over spending at big box stores.

-- Respect your shop tools and they will respect you - Ric

I’ve recently purchaced older hand tools from two different guys who inherited them for their fathers. they told me there fathers were cabinet makers who, started losing business, and ended up doing trim carpentry and rough framing.
I find it amusing that many people think everything at home depot and lowes are the cheapest….. funny I’ve purchaced tools, material, and hardware cheaper from other places. I avoid going to the big giants unless it is an emergency.

-- Sean Buffalo, New York

Its a sad story thats being repeated across this country for a long time now..giant conglomerates pushing the smaller competition out. What the average home buyer doesn’t understand that there is a measurable quality difference between your cabinets and the big boxes…even when you are bidding apples to apples. I don’t care what you are buying at the big box..it is always in some way inferior to the similar product you can find elsewhere. That is how they get there profit margin..partly from mass quantity buying but also because they negotiate with the manufacturers to meet a certain price point and then they agree to move a certain quantity at that price…and to meet that price point manufacturers cut corners and use inferior materiels..plain and simple. Dennis I feel bad for guys like you and my friends and former employers that own cabinet shops here in CT that are taking it on the chin thanks to the big boxes. People are getting a product of lesser quality, and not saving any money in the process…

-- David, South Windsor, CT "I love the smell of sawdust in the morning"

My advice is to make up a little homemade print out / or … that compares your features and competitive prices to Lowes.
Hand it to your next potential customer before they have a chance to get away.

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

that’s a great idea Dan! Give the comparison.. they go to the stores and get a quote and come back as a believer!

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Ditto what Dan said. But you know, Dennis, sometimes it’s a catch 22. I’ve had people not buy a piece of my furniture because the price wasn’t high enough. I would’ve had no problem adjusting that, but sometimes I think high end stuff is a “status thing”. I’ve had plenty of folks come by for an estimate on a custom built piece, and see something I’ve got made, that they just paid way too much for at a Stickley showroom, and say they wished they had waited. Rest assured though, there are plenty of people still around that know the value of handcrafted furniture, case goods, and cabinets. And they know that it doesn’t come from the “Big Box” stores.
Keep the faith, Brother. They’ll find you.

-- Tim -- http://tmuli.com

Dan hit the nail on the head. Perception is everything in sales. If you have a price/quality comparison at hand and the same info committed to memory, you stand a good chance of turning a few heads your way. Just looking around in our market, I am surprised at how much the big boxes have slipped the prices up.

I have a toy shop(tool shop) just up the road from me and i only buy from him second hand i have never brought new tools i like to think that a better craftsman than me once used the tools that i now own and one day someone will feel the same as me so big stores never see my money LOL…........ as for trying to get people to change thier buying ways forget it they all like to think that they got abargin instore but never understand that the price is high in the first place and they think because its handmade its going to cost an arm and leg so my friend all i can say is keep trying …........

andy

-- cut it saw it scrap it

Dennis:

Don’t waste another minute in complaining about the “new economy” – unless you are trying to host a pity party.

Here’s my chant: “They (insert Walmart, Lowe’s, HomeDepot etc.) can’t compete with me.”

Do what they can’t do.
Do it better and charge accordingly.
More importantly, pursue the kinds of clients that won’t do business them.

The artisans that I network with have proven that there still is, and perhaps more than ever, remains quality-seeking clients. Find them and give them the quality and pampering they want.

Rise to the opportunity and do what it takes.
After all, you are a member of the best – a LumberJock!

Get busy…

-- Randy, Rustic Artisan, a family tradition. (No PM's - auto-deleted.) - "I am a seeker, not a follower."

It Is funny I have customers who do not balk at a price and some who do. I tend to take it on the chin alot and just wait for the next appreciative customer to come along. There are clients who are extremely knowledgeable about woods, grain, figure, joinery, etc and I do not have to tell them anything. Then there are those that ask what wood is in every piece. I have got to where I can tell by the look in a customers eyes that they know quality and then there are those that have that “deer in the headlights” look. It is funny I remember at the last show some other vendors and I were talking and I mentioned I was going to make a wood sign for my booth that says something like, “IKEA we ain’t”, or “IKEA not spoken here”...or “You better call your better half and get permission before I tell you the price…hehe. Hang in there my friend..

-- Frank, Little River/Academy, Texas , http://www.allthingsrustix.com

Don,t forget the word “convenience” . Most people like to see what they,re getting in the flesh before purchasing. you walk in, you see it, you lay down your cash and you walk out. Then it turns up at your house and someone else does the hard work for you. Simple.
Don,t know what marketing or promo stuff you have, but maybe a change of tactic would be in order? Can people get to you easily? can they see what you do? I,m just guessing at your set up so these are just my thoughts.
Maybe I could set up a factory here in asia for you if you really want to compete!

-- if the hand is not working it is not a pure hand

I found that true as well, I had someone look at some birds I had made that i was selling for $4.00 a pair. They said to my face that they could find them cheaper elsewhere. I told them no you can’t. These are hand made. So I told him to go ahead. People just don’t understand.

-- There is no such thing as a mistake. Its called a design modification Rick Kruse, Grand Rapids, MI

I learned my lesson at Menards when I priced out boards for a 6 ft cedar fence in the back yard. The 1” X 8” X 6ft boards were half the price at the local well established lumber yard, the boards I didn’t like they exchanged with no problem. The same can be said for antique furniture, I’ve restored alot of it mostly for us and my sister, a few for other people, and they got a deal because I didn’t want to be looked at like I was robbing them. Some people think antique furniture is junk. Well if you go by what Antiques Road Show preaches by leaveing the original finish on it, in most cases it probably is junk until it’s restored. If we are talking a museum piece that is in good condition, by all means leave it alone, but most pieces aren’t. I find it odd that people are willing to buy imported furniture at a fairly steep price, but won’t spend the money to have an American made piece that is solid hardwood. Antique furniture restorers in this town have dried up, at one time there were around a half a dozen of them, now I’m not sure if you find a bussiness that does it anymore. I guess in all fairness though, I have bought some imported furniture that were solid hardwood cheaper than the materials would of cost me, but I know what to look for, I don’t think the majority of the public has a clue about what is veneered and what is solid, they just know it looks good.

Hiring a cabinetmaker is intimidating. I imagine a lot of people are afraid to ask because they assume that they can’t afford it and would be wasting your time asking you to come by and give a quote. I know that I think that way. That’s why I do a lot of work myself! Definitely do as previous posters have suggested – price out a setup purchased from the big box stores and have your price for a comparable setup and say why yours is better. The more information you can give out without a person asking, the better! If you have a website, put your comparision up there. (if you don’t have a website, definitely get one.) I would love it if people not only showed pictures of their work, but also were upfront about how much that you charged for it. If you don’t give me any chance to “assume” anything, I won’t!

-- Beth

I fully understand what you are saying. I had previously thought that I couldn’t afford custom cabinets. Then my siblings all built new homes with custom cabinets that cost half of what the big box stores charge. When we were ready to remodel our kitchen, we got prices from Menard’s and two custom cabinetmakers. One custom place was twice the price of Menard’s but the other cabinetmaker’s price was comparable to Menard’s except I got what I wanted and didn’t have to compromise on my design (and his price included installation). The more expensive custom shop wasn’t willing to make what I wanted. They had their own ideas. Ultimately I ended up making my own island (which I’ll post some day) because the assembly was so detailed, but we didn’t have room in our tiny shop to make all the kitchen and dining cabinets.

I would have liked a detailed comparison so I could have known if I could afford custom cabinets when I remodeled a previous kitchen. I never even asked because I was certain I couldn’t afford them. After all, the big cabinet companies offer 50%, 75% and more off their “retail” prices. Custom cabinetmakers just give the “real” price to begin with!

-- "But godliness with contentment is great gain." 1 Timothy 6:6

Rustic, did you give them the bird as they were leaving?? :)

You are now experiencing working with the Great American Public.

-- Only the Shadow knows....................

From what i can gather, places like Lowes and Home dep are very clever at making their product look affordable up front….That is until you decide you actually want doors, glass in glass doors, drawers, a finish, rollouts, decent slides, hardware, delivery, counter tops, installation, old cabinets removed, old cabinets hauled off…..We all know the speil. The sticker price in the showroom is just there to put forth a perception of savings.

This is the same dynamic that makes people drive 20 miles to get gas 3 cents cheaper, without any thought to the higher priced cup of coffee they buy while there negates any monies saved at all.

-- miles125, Alabama.."Architecture is frozen music""

I think we all may have created this perception of costing more. When the economy was good I am sure you balked at people that wanted to price your “exclusive hand built custom made” cabinets <grin> , and rightfully so. When work is plentiful we should be paid more, there are only so many hours in a day and my free time (not sure about yours :) is valuable.

So change tactics now, post comparisons, create a simple easy to make (insert whatever item here) cabinet that competes with HomeD so you can show customers you are less expensive and tell your friends that times being what they are, we are all making things for less now (and happy to). Times will not always be hard (God please let that be true) so we really want to keep the idea that our time is more valuable and while we are worth more for all the great work.

It is Sunday and I need more coffee, good luck and keep on swinging

-- "so much to learn and so little time"..

I’ve seen many cabinet shops claim they do “high end”...........only in thir dreams.

Theres a saying…..........”if you cant beat em, join em”, I occasionally buy kitchens. Built, finished, assembled, wrapped and delivered to my door, for less money then I could even buy just the materials….............mark them up, and re-sell them. Theres probably more profit doing this, then making them.

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Hi Dennis;

So true, especially if the client wants something “custom”, like a 29” cabinet, instead of a 28” and a 1” filler strip.

If only people would just ask!

I recently installed a floor in a new kitchen. The kitchen was done by sears. I was installing a custom kitchen for a neighbor, and was told they would be asking me for an estimate, but they ended just going with the sears proposal. I know they now regret that speedy decision, as they weren’t happy with the results.

And, as you well know, the quality of the cabinets are not equal to that of custom cabinets.

I can say they did get less than expected, and they, nor I was not overly impressed with the workmanship.

Oh well, live and learn.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

I’m not a professional Cabinetmaker and I sure don’t envy you guys that are.
It’s tough demanding , unforgiving and filled with tiny things to trip you up.

I am a business guy however and I will suggest this to you:

Get the most outrageous business card you can find.
Raised script , embossed gold and find print.
The kind and English Duke might hand out.
Dont put a picture of tables on it!

Don’t tell them what you can do until they have told you what they want.
They will most likely tell you what the other estimates contain at this point.

Ask if they have received a measured drawing of the job. ( tells you how far along they are to committing) *Get a copy for your notes.
From this interview, try to list a bill of materials and present them with a similar bill at the same price with a list of options beside it. ( do not leave a copy of this estimate with them unless they show interest in your proposal.)
At this juncture present your portfolio and leave them a brochure.
Tell them if they are interested in pursuing the job with you that you can accommodate it in 1,2 3 weeks for and estimated completion of 3, 4, 5 weeks.
What I am building here guys is you image of a competent guy who is helpful yet dosen’t not beg the sale.
Most folks recognize this and those that dont weed out early on pricing.
Most important is the estimate. All things not quoted on the estimate are “extras”
Make your estimate as accurate as possible and don’t include things not asked for.

Try it once.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Hi Bob,

Well said.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

As I sit here drinking my sleepy time tea I thought of an idea for you-all ....

I bet a lot of NBA players and staff like hand made furniture or a nice box oar-something.

Might be a good place to mail some brochures or write a email or letter.

Try twittering SHAQ, I think he has a public site. Ask him what to do.

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever