Grumbles from the shop #1: Shaking my head...we'll never learn

please don’t shut up. you do not want to be part of the silent majority, do you? they, along with political correctness are a big part of the ruination of this great country!
mike

-- mrsawdust, pittsburgh,pa.

Dennis (Grumpy) – you have visiting too many stores in our area – come to think of it – I am not sure we even have a real furniture store here. Its too bad your not closer to Sun Valley and Jackson Hole – although I am sure you have sold some of your projects in those areas. The type of furniture you build has a real attribute for those areas. Its just too bad we have become a throw away society.

-- "Have you hugged your pet today?" ---------- Larry

I agree with the last comment. How what we hold sacred has degenerated in standards, honesty, quality. Nobody seems to care about their appearance or their work ethic. Scribe

-- Jeff, British Columbia Canada

“Kinda like spreading caviar on wonder bread. ”.....You always crack me up , Buddy ! Glad to see that your sense of humor hasn’t gone down the drain : ) I lost my job 3 months ago in a small custom cabinet and millwork shop due to the economy.Still looking for another one : ( Chin up , my friend , and keep smiling through the pain : )

-- You know you're getting old when you know the difference between you're (you are) and your (belonging to you) AND how to use them in a sentence .

I coudn’t agree more. furniture and homes have both degraded in quality to the disposable level.
the only thing i can think to do about it is educate everyone who will listen of it’s downfalls. and educate ourselves about how to do it properly. one day people will want quality again.
we just have to show them the option.
so keep ranting.

-- Junior -Quality is never an accident-it is the reward for the effort involved.

Preach it, Brother!

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

About a year ago I was looking at new houses, or should I say my wife was and I was drug around through it all. Any how we were in this one house and the agent tells us that all of the bathroom and kitchen cabinets are from Ikea. This stuff was hideous and the builder was actually proud of what he did. My question for the builder was about warranties on the cabinets and such his reply was none at all. So had I not know the difference and bit at this I would be doing a whole renovation on a house that I bought new within 3 to 5 years. I should have taken pictures of that stuff it was awful stuff. But I guess that is what most people are into the good ole throw away stuff.

-- Something that goes unnoticed will never be remembered.

education, education, education.
People just don’t know – as you say “we believe the lies”. We don’t know what a “real” piece of furniture costs to be made.
I’m hoping that the one silver lining of our economic crisis is that we move away from the disposable mentality and start purchasing “for keeps”. When we get back to that philosophy then we will want to invest in quality rather than something to look good until our taste changes.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Amen.

-- Scott in Texas

wow, what stirred you and I up. Did you see my blog from yesterday?

In our area it is just the opposite, you can’t put a trailer house on a property. One stubborn guy about 6 miles west of me put his trailer house down and refused to remove it. So, finally submitting to the law, he put a huge barn around it. Gotta love the rebels among us.

Hang in there Dennis, if we all make it through this chapter in America, there might be some changes, until our Grandkids do just what we did, and it will all start over again.

M

-- Mark DeCou - American Contemporary Craft Artisan - www.decoustudio.com

I have said it before and now you hear people like glee beck saying it. Revolution could happen again (but we keep acting like sheep), we need to stand up and be heard. Tell people to stop believing the lies, don’t be quite, the other team sure is not quite about their beliefs. You need to stand up and be counted, vote with your dollars and get other to do the same. STOP voting the same crooks into office.. I could go on for a few pages but I’ll stop there.

-- "so much to learn and so little time"..

Well, I almost bought into the BB stuff but on my bathroom reno the work we’re doing is intended to last and look good too (1/2 bath to full bath/laundry). We had a local cabinet maker build a couple hatch doors, upper cabinet and lower countertop and bins for ~1150.00. Seemed kinda steep, but installed there is no way anyone will ever mistake these for anything but the custom work they are. And so of course had to go back to the same shop for a matching vanity, and got a deal on that b/c I had to wait for ~8 months on it.

The previous owner couldn’t believe we’d do “all that work just for the two of you” – hrmmph! I actually NEED that 2nd bath :)

There are a few of us around who prefer to NOT go the mass route.

I feel your pain Dennis. I notice a lot of places around here selling furniture (not just Ikea) that is cheaper than I can buy the materials to make the same thing for someone. If it was simply a matter of the labor costs being different I could accept that. But when the total product costs less than my materials, it explains why no one is buying from local furniture makers. Of course the items will probably not last as long, but they are cheaper.

Hang in there Dennis. One day people may come around and begin paying for quality and not just price.

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

seems the “all about money” crowd are presently watching their millions and billions of net worth turn into the chump change they call “my paycheque”.

Even some of the “wealthy” put in the cheapest crap referred to as “high end cabinetry” which is nothing more then future landfill ….fill. Doors are stapled together, finished with auto NGR, the 100 grit sanding marks make the colours allover the map. Cheap 3/8” melamine gables dadoed into solid edges held with hotmelt and staples…....................it astounds me how even the brightest minds fall for the lure of “junk”...............and whats worse, they expect that the junk should be equall in quality to that made by a talented craftsmen so the parts are sent back to the manufacturer which in turn makes even those companies “squeel” like a stuck cat.

Going into furntiure big box stores and asking the salesperson if the product is “solid wood”, then listening to the “speach” about the care and quality, select grains etc and knowing the whole while that the piece of furniture comes from a plastic injection mold and also knowing that the salesman really does think he/she is telling the truth.

I sometimes think that if you want to make a living at this trade you must always keep in mind…........”Its a paycheque” and do what you must to feed your family….......sad indeed but reality all the same

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Dennis,
I am surprised to hear this. I thought one of the selling points of these things is that my manufacturing in a factory, quality control could be much higher and there could be tighter tolerances. Also, they claimed that they could have people that really knew what they were doing because they focused on a specific aspect of construction. I wonder if I’m misunderstanding, if there are variances in quality among different builders, or it I just bought into the marketing.

I liken it to “people” some look awesome until you remove the make-up

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

Some anecdotes …
People ask me if I do cabinets in new construction or mostly remodels. I tell them most of the cabinets I do are in houses 3-5 years old when the original junk cabinets start to fail.

I can’t tell you how many times I bid cabinets in new construction only to have the homeowner or GC say, “I can get them cheaper at Home Depot.” And I always say, “If you are happy with the style and quality that you can get from stock cabinets, then I think you should go that route.”

In order to save a buck, our society has accepted that we will have to replace things every 3-5 years. I have done bids to replace failed furniture, only to have the person say, “but that’s four times what I paid for this one.” And I say, “yes, but if keep buying it at that price, you’ll have to buy another one every 5 or 6 years. If you buy from me, you’ll give it to your grandkids.”

I could go on and on …

But I also have clients who say, “Wow, that’s more than I expected … but I recognize quality when I see it … where do I sign?” There are still some out there, and I guess all we can do is try to educate the rest.

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

HokieMojo, The walls in the home I installed cabinets in were 3/8 of an inch out in 24 inches. the curtain rods where plastic. Yes their selling point is “quality”. I was in Lowes the other day and over heard the cabinet saleslady talk about the Conversion Varnish finish and how the local shops could not use it. She really believed it. It is a great industrial finish…that is why I use it.
Here is a big difference. A guy in a factory cuts twenty boards at once. I take one board select the side I want and cut out the defects. That is REAL quality control. We have become OK with salespeople being unethical. That is what has caused this economic break down.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

buyer beware i suppose. Thanks for the response. I never would have guessed.

F#$% yes. I’m on my way to another interview…

Regards, JM

-- Jarrod, Taos, NM http://jzmurphree.wordpress.com/

Hear, hear.

-- Working at Woodworking http://www.VillageLaneFurniture.com

Dennis: I’m glad that I’m retired and don’t have to worry about trying to keep or find a job. I just ahve to worry about living on a fixed income, that I don’t have any control over.

Good luck to you buddy. Keep making the crap if that’s what they want, and thats all they want to pay for. At least it will put soup and bread on the table, until things get better.

-- What happens in the workshop stays in the workshop. No wait that doesn't sound right. Karson Southern Delaware karson_morrison@bigfoot.com †

Hi Dennis,
Great observation. I just finished making cabinets for my kitchen… took 3 years, thought it would never get done! Many times I wondered if I was nuts, and should just buy the ready-made stuff. But everytime I looked at the usual fare at HD or Lowes, I just couldn’t ever see installing that low quality stuff. The contrast between what a craftsman builds (even a bad one like me) versus the mass-produced commercial product is like night and day. But it takes time, and that’s often the driving issue in a project.
Clif

That is one of the real sad things about these trailers. People buying them because they don’t want to wait 2 months for a real builder. A $100,000.00+ investment and they can’t wait 2 months for a real house. How can we be so stupid.
Hay Karson my cabinets are not crap but they are affordable. 5/8 Melamine box construction, solid wood doors, drawers, and face frames. Professional finish. I use domestic sheet goods. No hot melt. I’d put them up against just about any factory cabinet for durability. I sleep well at night.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Hi Dennis;

Tell us how you really feel. LOL I, along with many others here face the same look you described when giving a client a price for something.

I often hesitate in quoting some projects, due to the numbers. And often, someone is more than willing to build some junk for half the price, and the client thinks I must be a thief. They often don’t see, or I should say don’t want to see a difference. The part that really gets me though, is when they ask if I want to match the price.

I would rather burn my bra! (if I had one). I don’t know where that came from, but I’ll leave it in to see if anyone catches it.

This has been an ongoing struggle to woodworkers for many years now. Kresnov, was very disturbed about this very topic in one of his books, and in fact was the reason he wrote that book. His decision, as to what to do about it, was to continue building quality pieces, in hopes that sooner or later, people will wake up.

One more thing, after carrying Melamine around, of course you sleep well.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

Dennis we all have seen your work and know you don’t build crap, long way from it. your stuff is beautiful, most of it belongs in a gallery. We just live in a throw away society, and the kids going on to college now days expect to get a 6 figure job as soon as they get out of school.

-- Mike. mwurm13@yahoo.com

Hi Lee , Deferring to Sienfeld , I believe you would be burning you BRO or Manssiere , depending on whose side you were on . LOL Thanks for the humor !

-- You know you're getting old when you know the difference between you're (you are) and your (belonging to you) AND how to use them in a sentence .

Yes Lee now if some very bright guy could come up with someway to help that out…some sort of fancy in-feed table maybe!

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

just goes to show you—you really don’t know who you are chatting with when online!

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

ITS NOT JUST CABINET MAKERS ITS ALL CRAFTSMEN IN THE USA

-- BIGSKY

That is the truth BIGSKY. How many jobs have we sent overseas that use to be done by American craftsmen. Yes they can do it cheaper in India, China, and Mexico. But by the same logic the government has poured billions into agriculture. I really don’t believe in government subsidies, but maybe they could find a better simpler tax plan for the guy who only employs 2 people. The skills are traditionally passed down journeyman to apprentice, but if it takes days out of a persons work year to figure out all the different reports and deal with the bureaucracies just to keep one fellow working. Those skills will not be passed down. How many folks just get taught a few tricks and let lose rather than get to work with masters of a trade and really learn the art.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

Hey Dennis;

That’s an excellent idea. You should work on it!

You’ll probably be rich in no time.

You know, there’s another point where I often hear the price is too high. That too me, is somewhat shortsighted for number of reasons. I don’t actually make the price. It’s a combination of cost of goods plus, soft costs, and a profit. (someday)

One, I could get them made at a much lower price overseas, and sell them by the boatload. Or as my accountant suggested, build them to last for five years, so they’re consumable. Not in my nature to do that. I’m more likely to try and make it last beyond the expected fifty year life span OF THE USER, not the product!

Or considering how much time and effort is saved, and with time being money, it would seem like a good addition to any shop. The increase in safety and accuracy would be enough for me to buy it.

One of the worst chores for me was to cut heavy sheet goods. Had I found any product to do what mine does, I would gladly have paid several hundred dollars for it, without giving it a second thought. After a short amount of use, it pays for itself, and from then on is making me money.

In my humble opinion, the whole world is back asswords. LOL

Or may I just have Drain Bamage.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

Well so many shops have tried to solve the problem by buying a $20,000.00 sliding table saw. How expensive is your product then? I figured out how many kitchens I would need to do to justify a line boring machine. If I had 10 employees and we did nothing but kitchens a boring machine would pay for it self. We out think our selves. An elegant solution is simple like the ezee-feed. I’m not yet sold on soft close technology…frankly I always thought those little plastic bumpers did a pretty good job.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

the expensive tools—another flaw in our society in recent years. The need to buy the biggest, best, more efficient machine. I had this debate with people, recently, regarding farmers and their zillion dollar tractors. I was told that farmers have to buy the big machines because it saves them time in the fields and saves on fuel. Alas, in the end, the farmers can’t make ends meet. (There are lots of factors with farmers (who by the way grow our FOOD)—same as the stories for LumberJocks) but I think that a common problem with all businesses is the investment in the tools that we are told that we “need”.

I was thinking about this discussion yesterday and about the need to educate. I pictured the woodworkers uniting to create a major ad campaign that talked about saving the planet by buying for life rather than the disposal society.. that compared the price of one handmade piece to the cost of a “cheaper” piece.. and compared the two pieces re: quality. Then in the bottom of the ad there were local craftsman’s contact information. Anyway. that was my vision.

Keep making sawdust everyone!

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

Dennis

I bought a 20,000 dollar saw but I didnt pay 20 grand, having said that I would have paid 20 grand had the “deal” not been dropped in my lap. The saw almost eliminates the need for a jointer, allows the “squaring of a sheet of plywood, allows one man to handle 5’ x 10’ sheets of material instead of two men, enables one to cut fancy veneer and melamines without chipping…........no more cabinets, door parts etc., out of square, no more returned parts due to chipping, hairline joints on large panels so contrary to what you are implying, the big expensive tool makes you more competitive, not more expensive.

I could say the same for an edgebander and a thickness sander. Had my bride had a little courage we would have bought both these tools years ago by cashing in a few mutaul funds and investments. (as it sits now the mutaul funds, RRSPs and investments arent worth much more then the deposit you pay on a case of beer) Putting a piece of 7/8” x 1 3/4” x 96’ hardwood to the edge of an exposed gable would have taken seconds…..not hours. Sanding cabinet doors on a stroke sander is risky business and an average kitchen takes almost a week….....a thickness sander takes an hour. Doing the math its a…........ no brainer. The volume of work you can do in a month grows exponentially as do the profits. I dont have these two toys but I want them. Lucky me as I can use a friends toys for cheap.

Conversely a friend bought a CNC point to point router to the tune of about 50 grand just before the economic bubble popped. Plus the CAD programming, plus the training. I was at their shop just this week and watched three guys discuss what one guy should be doing. The panel on a floor to ceiling cabinet that houses two built in ovens wasnt CNC’d correctly. It took three guys almost 3 hours to find how to fix it. The panel was brought back to the CNC programmer for corrections and all decided that a new MDF panel was needed…......................means another CNC program, another sheet of MDF, another operation on the CNC and these owners scream about not making money…...............no %$#&2ing wonder. They entirely missed the fact that one guy could pick one sheet up and cut it out on the saw, mark the cutouts for ovens and cut the cut outs manually in a fraction of the time that CNC could do it. I’m not saying that CNC doesnt have a place becuase it does but the CNC cannot replace “common sense”.

The soft close technology is expensive but…...............its some sweeeeet. Especially ina house full of pubescent teenage girls.

Cheers

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

MsDebbie re farmers.

They all swear they are poor…..................I beg to differ.

On smaller farms I have to agree that buying a brand new 150,000 dollar tractor is just plain stupid. A field yields so many bushels of product that pays a given price per bushel. If one acre yields 1,000 bushels and each bushel pays 10 dollars….................its a fixed 10,000 dollar gross income. Whether you use a new 150,000 dollar tractor or a used 10,000 dollar tractor the end gross income doesnt change whether you get your crop off in a day, or five days. I wonder how many farmers passed basic arithmatic. I can understand why HUGE farms need big equipment as the crop will rot if you dont get it off the field.

I am always curious as to some local farmers who scream “no money” who run to the grocery store instead of planting a garden

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

true.
I live in “farm country” where there are lots of small farmers as well as the mega-farmers so that’s where my discussion came from.

You are right—big business needs the big machines to get the job done. Or I think they do, anyway. .. maybe I’m still buying into the lies.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I guess what I am saying is that its not “black and white”.....”Night and Day” decisions. A “BIG” tool can make you sink as fast as it can make you swim and visa versa. Too many companies keep all their profits, spend too little on R and D, dont invest in new technologies when times are good and do the blame game when times are tough

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/

right.. THINK people.. think

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

I do understand good machinery. Every time I’m running my 3 inch belt sander I keep thinking of a wide belt…heck even 4” belt sander would help. Maybe one day I’ll get a drum sander. But I would have to expand my shop. Same with a nice edgebander. I sure would love to have more than one shaper for doors. A spray booth is needed to. To do kitchens “right” I’d really need a few employees. I’ve watched a lot of these local shops getting swallowed up by debt. Today I’m feeling really blessed to have such a simple shop. ( I’d love a wide belt! )

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

To do kitchens “right” I’d really need a few employees. Dennis, I am a one man band and as much as I would love to hire an apprentice or a journeyman I refrain from it as it opens up pandoras box…......the govt walks in ie workmans compensation, pension and UIC contributions, health care contributions, vacation pay and on and on and on. So its just me building project after project and if something goes wrong then I can only blame me.

I too see many shops right now swimming in seas of endless debt, some closing their doors,.......it’s kinda sad. I left a company because the partner and I were never on the same page. he did buy the CNC and I am pretty sure its gonna sink the boat, not because he bought it, but because how its used and whos using it.

I occasionally do consulting work for big companies who are implimenting or expanding their kitchen department. After much hoopla on buying sliding TS, CNC etc they took my advice and farmed it all out. Why become a wolf when you can hire the whole pack and let them spend themselves into the ground.

Growing up in a fundemental Christian Home I was taught that everything is black or white…..........50 years later I have learned that life has a lot of “grey” in it.

-- http://www.furnituremann.ca/