Need advise from the pros and others LJ‘S.

When doing custom or commissioned work, I write up a description of the work to be done and attach a drawing/sketch of the design and get the client to sign off on the description and design. I include some contract “language” as well, which includes a statement that changes to the project may affect the cost, and such changes will be performed only with a signed change-order. When clients want a change, I say, “sure we can change that, it will cost about $xxx, do you want me to write-up a change-order?” If they question the cost, I tell them how much additional time and material will be required to perform the change.

Usually, if people are asking for a change, they realize that it will involve some cost. If they think you’ve given them something other than what was agreed, they will want you to re-do it at your expense.

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

If you do it you deserve to be paid….I would charge for the lost material as well as time and labor…its just how its done and the clients should understand that…always get in writting exactly what the clients want and have them sign off, its a tough world, and unless you cover your bases, you will lose everytime….understanding what a client is seeing in their mind , is difficult…and understanding that they dont percieve it same as you, additionally most folks are visual…they have a very tough time seeing something in their minds eye….I would cover my loses…its only fair….

Peter has it right. It’s a great idea to cover that up front. But that horse has already left the gate.

I realize it is a fine line… you don’t want to alienate potential repeat customers and future references. But you can’t let yourself be a doormat either. If the changes wanted by the customers have nothing to do with any mistake on your part, I think you should let them know that the extra time and materials involved will cost them an extra $xxx.

It might make sense to give them a bit of a discount on the labor, and tell them you are doing so in the spirit of cooperation and gratitude for their business.

-- Charlie M. "Woodworking - patience = firewood"

Charlie’s dead on! Be nice, but be firm. After all you didn’t change you’re mind.

-- Larry , Colorado www.coloradorecordcrates.com

Agree, Charlie and many others are dead on. In the future, have them sign the papers to protect yourself AND them.

As ,far as where you are now, Figure out how much time, material etc invested now. How much material you have bought but not used that can be used on the new project.

Simple math, lets say the old project was going to cost them $1000, you have $350 time and material invested, after figuring out what they want for the new one, that one cost $1000…add your cost from the other project “THEY” changed their minds on…the new one is now $1350

-- Don S.E. OK

I think Peter and Charlie have covered it well. I always have a written agreement with my customers and it does include a firm dollar amount for changes one for small changes and one that says a new project will require a new deposit and new written agreement, The Deposit should be at least your material cost and 50% of your labor,If in doubt estimate high on the labor. As Far as discounting the first project don’t do it unless ,you did not have a drawing and did not understand what they wanted or your workmanship was not as good as it should have been. In this area you must ask is there any part of the workmanship that does not meet your approval. If non of these problems were involved you should only accept payment in full.

-- Jim from Heirloom Woodshop Southern Oregon

Guys ( there was no girl comments) THANK YOU!!! I was leaning toward this direction but your support as affirmed my decision . I always thought I was too “small”for a written contract but I now realize I if I want to survive in this business I need to be firm but fair. Thanks again.

-- All bleeding will eventually stop.

Follow Peter O’s advice and you wont go wrong.

-- I will just keep doing it till I get it right.

TraumaJacques, I have been in the same sistuation as you and yeilded to the nice guy in me and in the end worked for nothing and lost money on materials also the speculation that there would be more work never happened. Be fair to your customers and be fair to yourself and you both will be happier. ...but put everything in writing.

-- Never board, always knotty, lots of growth rings

I can’t speak to woodworking sales directly, however, I have done a great many project designs in another field and can tell you what we did. In cases where the client wanted changes made to an originally approved plan, it is as Don suggested, the original spec was added to the total cost of the newly spec’d project.

In a case where a client was, after a time, no longer satisfied with the product, we issued a credit equal to 50% of the original cost and spec’d changes against the remaining balance. As we were doing software design, there was no product to recoup, however I would recommend in your case your use the same formula and repossess the original piece for resale. In that manner, your profit margin can at least in theory be maintained on both pieces.

Money changes everything, including interpersonal relationships. If you are unwilling to hold your own time in high esteem, it’s unlikely that others will do so for you.

Good luck with which ever way you choose to handle it.

-- JMP

Always, i mean Always, Have a description and sketch, if not a cad drawing with dimensions, and styles represented on the same form they would sign. Most times I find myself redoing projects on the computer rather in the shop. These are cost free to the customer only if they buy. PeterO and Charlie got it right, as long as your project is reasonably in harmony with your plans. If not you might have to eat this one (third customer). The other tw,o If they do buy it from you (the new design) and you charge a little more you can tell them not to worry about the work already done. Make sure you make enough to cover costs, and still profit, This sometimes works if the project is ellaborate and hard to tell what it costs. On the other hand, if it’s a simple thing then it might become more difficult to pull that off.

Either way get paid at least for hours and material.

-- Woodshop supplies at bulk discounts. www.getneds.com

Again guys thanks for the advises I think i know what I will do now and from now on. Thanks again.

-- All bleeding will eventually stop.

You might search around a bit on the web. I know when I was going through college for my graphics degree we were told to write up contracts as well. It’s been a few years, but we actually found a few sites that had some good “Generalized” contracts drawn up with actual legal terms and all for free. You then could change them to your needs and print out the final document for them to sign off on. Sometimes we were told to write in “One small change allowed, additional changes and XXXX additional fee per change” but it’s easier to make changes in graphics than with lumber. Definitely need some sketches so they get and idea what you’re seeing though.

I had a client that I didnt make a contract with and before I knew it I had 5 extra changes from what the initial design was, and 40 extra hours added onto the project. Learned my lesson. Good luck!

-- -- Jim - Kokomo, Indiana

Always get a signed order with descriptions…design…and then get some “weasel” words that protect you…it looks far more professional to have a printed order…with “weasel” words on the back…”weasel” words are those legal words that make it impossible for the customer to say they signed but didn’t agree to pay you time and materials for the changes. There are legal websites that should have some general terms on them you can copy from…and there might even be woodworker specific words you can use….if not consult a lawyer to help you.
The money you pay a lawyer will always pay you back in the future. We all want to be nice guys and we want to please…but some customers become ogres and chiselers…protect thyself from those who would do you harm.

-- /\/\/\ BarryW /\/\/\ Stay so busy you don't have time to die.

Bid . Signed bid . Money down . Had this conversation this morning with a fellow LumberJock who needs the work , but is being tempted to proceed without anything in writing on a project that I am also involved in .I am adamant that he protect himself because I know I will do future work with him. On the other hand, on the multi thousand hour Tuscan Villa job I am doing, the architect called me 3 times yesterday, 2 times this morning with change orders and I am gladly complying…with nothing in writing. So there is the dichotomy. Experience, common sense and continually improving customer relationships is the answer. And so is trust.

“Dichotomy” that is the word I was looking for thanks, socalwood. funny enough i just saw one of the above mentioned clients at the gas station and she said no problem for the extra cost… she loves my work and is more that happy to keep “me”happy. So there we are a dichotomy of feelings right now.thank you again for your support and check out my school blog.

-- All bleeding will eventually stop.

TraumaJacques,

I just thought a woman should put in her two cents worth. I am in agreement with all that has been said concerning signed contracts. If you are working with people that you know or are referred by someone you know, you may find it uncomfortable to present a contract to sign. Some people think that you are doing it because you don’t trust them (and maybe you shouldn’t trust them), but it is also because either side (craftsman or customer) can sometimes forget exactly what was agreed. If you get the feeling that someone thinks you’re questioning their integrity because you want a signed contract, just let them know it’s to help you remember exactly what was requested.

Years ago I designed wedding gowns, but only by referral. The first bridal gown I made was for a friend that I was afraid to quote a price. I told her to just pay me what she felt it was worth. Since she had paid several hundred dollars to have a very simple veil made, I was quite certain she would pay me fairly, especially after I let her know how many hours I had spent on it. I came out making less than a dollar an hour for my time. (That was more than 35 years ago.) After that mistake, I always quoted a price range. I never had written contracts and never had a problem UNTIL a wedding with seven attendant gowns. I had quoted a price range, but did not requote after several design changes because I felt I could still do it for the top of the quote. The husband stopped to pick up the gowns, said the bride gave him the bottom dollar amount, said he couldn’t reach her on the phone, but they needed the dresses immediately because they had waited until last minute to pick them up. I let him take the dresses and, you guessed it, I never saw bride or groom again or another dime. That totally changed my mind about the need for a contract.

We no longer live in the day and age of hand-shake agreements.

-- "But godliness with contentment is great gain." 1 Timothy 6:6

Another thought I wanted to throw in: killing yourself in order to maintain a good relationship with someone just because of their connections may not be worth it.

I used to do some work for an interior decorator who is very well connected. She was killing me with changes and trying to whittle down my prices. Despite descriptions and sketches, I never seemed to produce what she wanted, so I was doing a lot of re-work. I was putting up with it because of all the work I could potentially get through her connections. Then I realized that these jobs were the work I could get through her connections. Finally she made one too many unreasonable demands and I said, “no.” She got mad and screamed and I suggested we cancel the contract if she wasn’t happy – and she agreed. I haven’t noticed a drop in my workload, and I sure don’t miss her jobs.

-- http://www.north40custom.com -- http://north40studios.etsy.com --

I’ve run into this in the past as well and it’s a real pain to have to put up with. I’ve learned to have an agreed upon design that the client signs off on and the “contract” stating that any changes will cost extra. You’re out time and materials due to the whims of a client. It sounds to me like you had finished off the project as had been agreed upon and for them to change it is THEIR fault and not yours.

Yes…. You have to consider that this may effect other work in the future, but if everyone gets it in their minds that you’re “easy” then there are those that will take advantage of it every change they get. Better to protect yourself in the future.

-- What do you mean you can't use balsa for that?

I just remembered this web site…I used it allot when I started out…and it is pretty darn accurate. You can even add your Business name….who the customer is etc etc etc…very professional for a free web site.

http://www.bridgewooddesign.com/estimator/index.htm

-- Don S.E. OK