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Kitchen Cabinet Build #1: Boxed in... Oh No!

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Blog entry by JohnMeeley posted 818 days ago 1850 reads 0 times favorited 18 comments Add to Favorites Watch
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This build has been in ‘progress’ far too long. It started with a reset of my kitchen layout that my Wife and I agreed upon. Much of a back-story here, but in the essence of brevity, I’ll just say this is the point I got to quickly and stopped. The Cabinets are somewhat standard construction with BB ply for the box, Hard Maple for the roll outs and Heirloom Cherry for the face frames and raised panel sides. The roll outs are on full ext. slides. The top rollers are 22” deep. The lower are 18” deep and set back with the thought of having spice and canned good storage on the inside of the doors. The interior and doors is where my problem began. My face frames (width) are flush with the carcass width. 15” ID box – 15” ID frame. Prior to construction I drew out my plans by hand but never went the full step of planning for my hinge hardware. PROBLEM. In my head I visioned your basic cope and stick raised panel door with a full inset using blumotion euro hinges. The proper swing of the doors to allow for the full width roll outs is my glitch. Much sadness would ensue realizing one of a few things needed to be quite different. So at this point in the build I fear my best choice is to forsake my full inset doors for a 3/8” lipped door or 1/2” overlay door. Both choices using a piano style hinge. Possibly one with a fancy finial.

To those of you reading this your comments suggestions and hardware solutions are most welcome. The wealth of knowledge on the other side of this screen is beauty to behold. please respond with all you got.

Enough spilled milk, there are several things about this build I am quite proud of. When I was in the stage of milling the cherry, I spent a huge amount of time playing with finishes. (you name it, I tried it.) The color my wife and I both wanted is what you see in the photos, Full rich deep cherry you see on antiques. The finish technique I chose to use was aging the cherry with a 10% solution of potassium di-chromate and many coats of shellac wiped and brushed for protection. (the plywood carcass was done with wipe on satin poly.) The beauty that sprang forth 1 hour after aging was incredible. There is some sapwood in my panels that evened their tone far better than any stain would accomplish. (short of toning a lacquer with dye and shooting it.)

Another source of pride is the fact this has been to date my largest build, the logistics in a small shop are all too well known to most of us here at LJ.

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot



18 comments so far

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#1 posted 818 days ago

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

It is common practice to space the rollouts 1” away from the box on the hinge side of the opening. You can buy spacer blocks specifically for this purpose.

Euro hinges swing into the opening space so they can be overlaid nearly flush to an outside surface. That means spacers for your rollouts. Kinda hard to get around that lil’ detail there.

This one is made by Blum for thier Tandem guides, but it works really well on the side mount FEX’s too.
They are much more robust than the donut spacers you can get and they mount using the 5mm System screws (much stronger hold than wood screws)

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#2 posted 818 days ago

You can get an overlay hinge for up to 1-3/8” Overlay (Blum makes the Compact 33 series). As long as you avoid placing a hinge at the same height as the drawer glide it should work. This hinge has a swing out of 5/16” so you cannot space adjacent doors closer than about 3/8” from each other. (1/2” is typical so adjustments can be easily made)

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#3 posted 818 days ago

Well… Thank you for the feedback. Taking the time to respond is what I admire about everyone here at LJ. “Kinda hard to get around that lil’ detail” is a source of tears for me. Given the heritage of the lumber I truly wanted to perform above and beyond. As of this writing, it is more to the point of being done. I hope to save my screw up and not allow this focal point of our home to become something I dread to look at. Too much time invested in the dovetail roll-outs to make them firewood. So unless further contributions provide an answer to my strife, I will plod along my merry way to a 3/8” lipped door with a finial piano style hinge.

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#4 posted 818 days ago

Height placement shouldn’t be a problem. I think with the planned weight of the loaded door three hinges per door should suffice. I will hit the books and look at the compact 33 again. Sometimes I confuse myself with the details on Blums site.

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#5 posted 818 days ago

Did you make your dovetail rollouts? (They are very nice BTW.)
Inset doors would look terrific, but you’d have to cut down the drawer boxes.

If this were my project, it wouldn’t be the first time I had to cut down a dovetail drawer.
It is a bit tricky, but usually doable if you have the skill to make a dovetail drawer.
(Cut the front and back on the table saw so the side comes loose. Chisel the wood out of the remaining joint. Re-cut the dovetail joints at the front and back and voila’! )

If you feel overlaying the doors is the best solution, there are concealed hinge options as well as the finial hinge options. Either way, I wish you the best of luck.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#6 posted 818 days ago

The roll-outs are machine routed with an ancient plastic craftsman template. The 1/2” stock was re-sawn from 6/4 hard maple, thicknessed and routed in my shop. I made a template for the front, rough sawed on the BS, and pattern bit on one of my routers for the final. The finish is many coats of blonde de-waxed shellac flake dissolved in Behkol. <—-too expensive and stinky for me to ever buy it again, recommend good quality denatured instead.

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#7 posted 818 days ago

I used to have that old craftsman template! It lasted until I nipped the tip of one of the fingers by lifting the router out too soon.
After that, it was just annoying because I’d try to freehand it over that spot and it was always less than perfect.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View ArtistryinWood's profile

ArtistryinWood

95 posts in 2190 days


#8 posted 818 days ago

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#9 posted 818 days ago

Good eye, my concern would be the load on the door. I’ll have to see if I can pull the specs for the various hinges you pointed out. The doors will carry 4” shelves max. OD. for canned goods, spices and the usual criminals found in a pantry cabinet. I also am thinking of re-enforcing the cope and stick joint with doweling. Just because I tend to over engineer things a tad bit.

Thank you

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View gizmodyne's profile

gizmodyne

1763 posts in 2593 days


#10 posted 818 days ago

I can’t tell how wide those face frames are, but have you considered using a nice butterfly hinge?

-- -John "Do I have to keep typing a smiley? Just assume it's a joke." www.flickr.com/photos/gizmodyne

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#11 posted 818 days ago

All rails and stiles are 3/4” thick, Raised panels finished out at 5/8”. I like the finish on your choice, but really leaning toward a self close/ soft close type. Gotta pull up the compact 33’s and look at those again. Thank goodness I haven’t constructed the doors yet. It’s the terms that befuddle me, full crank, half crank etc.

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#12 posted 815 days ago

A typical euro hinge has a straight arm body. (reference the Blum CLIP series)

A partial overlay door, such as you’d find with two doors mounted to a single 3/4” partition, the hinge body will be half-cranked – meaning there is a slight bend to it to space the door over some.

An inset hinge is full-cranked—the hinge body is bent a lot more over allowing the door to be completely inside the opening.

For the compact 33 series, ignore all of the above. The base plate mounts to the edge of a face frame and wraps around the front of the frame. The overlay is selected by which baseplate you use. They range from 1/4” to 1-3/8” overlay at every 1/8” increment.
As long as your overlay gets the door out of the opening, the base plate intrudes only about 1/4” into the opening and your roll out will slide right by as long as the actual glide is not at the same height as the hinge.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#13 posted 815 days ago

Wud.. the bummer about the surface mount base plate is that the door lays at least 3/16” (maybe 7/32”) out from the frame.
It doesn’t look that good. (IMHO)
The wrap around plates give you 1/8” outset.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

View JohnMeeley's profile

JohnMeeley

253 posts in 836 days


#14 posted 815 days ago

Well… I’m gonna buy 2 compact 33’s and make a scrap stile and mount it (on the cabinet,stop with the dirty thoughts) That will be my proof in the pudding. If it’s a no go, what have I lost?

-- "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say you cannot do."-Walter Bagehot

View DS's profile

DS

2081 posts in 923 days


#15 posted 815 days ago

Hmm… I used a surface mount plate once… was not impressed at all. (Pretty sure it is worse off than the wrap around base plates)
I also mis-remembered the overlay limit as 1-3/8” overlay.

I suppose that’s why I should prescribe to the dull pencil theory. (The dullest pencil is sharper than the sharpest mind)
Shoulda’ looked it up like you did, Wud.

-- "Hard work is not defined by the difficulty of the task as much as a person's desire to perform it.", DS251

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