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Maybe the beginning of a larger project #2: Cutting the first sheet!

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Blog entry by Mark Shymanski posted 07-08-2013 03:40 AM 849 reads 0 times favorited 9 comments Add to Favorites Watch
« Part 1: Figuring out angles Part 2 of Maybe the beginning of a larger project series Part 3: Real life intervenes yet again :-( »

Well I got my plywood home, although the fellow at the lumber yard looked at me kinda funny when I asked him to load load it on top of my RAV4 :-)

I marked off my stations, measured for the cut lines, nailed, and the drew my cutlines along the station points.

My circ saw is a bit dodgy so I thought I’d just join the two panels together and cut them on the bandsaw which worked pretty good. The cut, as you might expect when ‘guiding an 8’ long 2’ wide sheet from the far end, was not as fair as I would have liked but a bit of hand planing took the worst of it out. I just have to touch up a few a spots and I’ll have a fair curve along the hole lower edge. The nice part of having the two side cut at once and then planed at once is that the curve will be the same on both once they are separated.

I’ve got a bit of a bump still to smooth out but it was late, I was beat and the heat was getting to me a bit. Hey I’m from Manitoba -30 doesn’t phase me but plus thirty and I start to melt like an ice cream cone on an August sidewalk :-) . So far I’ve spent about 54 dollars and about three hours. I also cut the frame braces and something I think is called the chine logs? I may have my terminology a bit garbled. After church I came home and intended to do a bunch more but went for a drive with Jennifer. Then friends invited me to dinner in their town about an hour away so I just cleaned up and had a great dinner, then I had to head back into work for a bit. In fact I am writing this as I am about to leave work and head home ( the connectivity is much more reliable here). I plan to finish fairing and lay out my bulkheads and perhaps cut them out tomorrow evening.

I am thinking of gluing and ring nailing these frame pieces into place. The web page talks about using Titebond II is there a better glue to use? Should I even be gluing these together?

Good night!

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2



9 comments so far

View Napaman's profile

Napaman

5365 posts in 2796 days


#1 posted 07-08-2013 05:18 AM

PDR! Now I feel like a slacker and this will motivate me! Since I was already building the Weekendrr I was used to epoxy which is 100%waterproof,but expensive.

-- Matt--Proud LJ since 2007

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

5216 posts in 1517 days


#2 posted 07-08-2013 05:47 AM

Good for you Mark. Yes they are called chine logs but if it were me, I’d stitch and glue.
This is your first boat though so you should follow what the plans say.
OK, with the possible exception of the Tightbond part. What are they thinking?
I’ve seen little dinghies like this successfully glued with construction adhesive.
A polyurethane like Sika Flex is an excellent choice. Epoxy is hands down the best.
But Tightbond …... I certainly wouldn’t.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fiberglass trees. http://prmdesigns.com/

View stefang's profile

stefang

13524 posts in 2053 days


#3 posted 07-08-2013 08:04 AM

I won’t attempt to give you any advice as you are already getting the best. It is fun and interesting to see you tackle this project though and follow your trials and tribulations with it. I always wanted to build a boat, but never did. The next best thing is watching someone else doing it.

Is that marine plywood you’re using, or is regular plywood ok for this build? If it is marine plywood, doe’s it costs more? A dealer here in Norway told me that waterproof glues are used on all plywood these days, but I don’t know if that is true, or if marine ply has something more than just waterproof glue to make it marine grade.

-- Mike, an American living in Norway.

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5115 posts in 2431 days


#4 posted 07-08-2013 01:19 PM

Matt maybe we should have a race to see who finishes first…wait that might back fire on me. Maybe who ever finishes first has to sail to the others and help them finish. Although I don’t think the PDR would be very good going through the Northwest Passage to get to the Pacific LOL! I should find out what epoxy and cloth would cost.

Thank you Paul for the information on the adhesives. I didn’t think Titebond would be good for wet environs. I have been reading a fair bit on boat building and ran across some Whitehall dingies that use stitch and glue and that is actually what got me interested in attempting a boat. The cost of building that dingy was considerably more. It was also a very nice looking boat. I am kind of holding that boat out as a carrot for myself to learn to sail in what is supposed to be a very stable and forgiving platform. I am also hopeful that my kids,Lauren 10 and Paul 8, will be able to sail her as well. Would you still need chine logs with stitch and glue or would you just place strategic reinforcing at the joints once the bottom was on? I’m using 3/8 plywood through out as 1/4 inch isn’t readily available here. Because I swim as well as my bandsaw I want this to be a pretty stable craft. I am building flotation boxes that run the length of the boat and was thinking it might work better just to epoxy them in place instead of nailing and then gluing.

Stefang the plywood used is the least expensive construction grade plywood. This boat is really a big prototype for me to learn to sail on and to see if I can actually build a boat. Once I feel a little more confident in my building and sailing skills I plan to attempt a second more sophisticated boat, probably of stitch and glue construction. My understanding is that as long as the boat isn’t continually sitting in water the inexpensive plywood if properly sealed should stand up to sailing. That is why I questioned the Titebond as a glue because I was pretty certain it wasn’t designed to be used in wet conditions.

If you folks ever find yourselves in Brandon swing on by the coffee is always on…I’ll probably be in the shop out back :-)

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View Napaman's profile

Napaman

5365 posts in 2796 days


#5 posted 07-08-2013 04:07 PM

Check all my advice against Paul’s (and then take his if we contradict each other!!!)...

I would definitely try to acquire 1/4” for at least the boat bottom. When plywood is bent/curved over a frame it is strong. My worry on 3/8 throughout will be the over all weight.

Epoxy is way more expensive then glue—-but if this is boat #1 then you will have left over (from building a pdr)...and can save it for boat two.

Everything I have read about this boat is that it is easy to sail—-kids and adults…which is exactly why I decided to get Sidetracked (working name of my PDR) from my weekender build and build this.

MARK—-its a race—-however I am MUCH further along…and I now have my DEDICATED shop back…my boatssss on my patio…so…your inspiration may push me to completion QUICKLY…

Of course my last pdr update said I would be done in weeks—-and that was 503 days ago (I am so embarrassed!!! They build pdr’s in “hatchings—-one weekend events all over the country!)...

May your build go FAST AND SMOOTH…just as your sailing!

-- Matt--Proud LJ since 2007

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

5216 posts in 1517 days


#6 posted 07-08-2013 05:39 PM

You can get a pretty good overview of stitch and glue in my blog on the subject and as you’ll see, there are no chine logs, or fastenings of any kind.

I wouldn’t worry too much about extra weight but 3/8” is certainly conservative for this small a boat. The 20’ ferries in the blog were only 3/8” and they carry 12 passengers plus the skipper. As for fastenings, there are hardly any in the ferries, it’s all glue. I used Industrial Formulators of Canada epoxies. They have been bought out by System Three but you can still buy their products under mostly the same names. Look for ColdCure for general bonding and S1 for interior sealing. I used ColdCure for cloth as well but they now have a product called Silvertip laminating resin that is thinner and penetrates cloth more easily.

Mike, The main difference in marine plywood these days is a guarantee of no voids in the crossband layers. They are all glued with waterproof glue.

Mark, Make sure you seal the ends of any of those voids in core layers or they will cause problems.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fiberglass trees. http://prmdesigns.com/

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5115 posts in 2431 days


#7 posted 07-11-2013 12:20 AM

I have reviewed your stitch and glue blog a couple of times. Now that I am actually building something I think I’ll need to go over it a few more times with a much more intense focus.

One thing that does pop to mind is how does everything stay in place while the epoxy sets? I can see on the outside stiched joints because you sort of have the opposing pieces holding everything. I am wondering how the bulkheads stay put while you are working on them and until it all cures. I know you’ve said that this can be done without fasteners and that is appealing to me, I just don’t want to assume something and then find myself glued up inside my own collapsing bulkheads:-) I would imagine you have to pace your installation of pieces to the curing time of the epoxy (not that I’m exactly a fireball when it comes to construction but I can get impatient with things if I’ve got the bit in my teeth).

The real advantage of building the PDR with stitch and glue is that I could get familiar with that technique and epoxying as part of the prototype process. The more I think about it the more I like that idea. I know you’ve mentioned the different types of cloth and I think you recommended the double bias cloth. My understanding is that cloth has the warp and woof of the fibres running at a 45 degree angle to the long axis which seems to me should provide more resistance to stretching or tearing along the joints because the fibres are likely across the joint instead of along the joint. While there is a significant cost difference between the two I don’t mind building the thing that I am out floating in to be not the result of cheaping out on materials. I am curious about and would like to learn why you use this fabric instead of the ‘regular’ weave.

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

View shipwright's profile

shipwright

5216 posts in 1517 days


#8 posted 07-11-2013 03:29 PM

Technically, the bulkheads aren’t stitch and glue because there’s no stitching. They require some form of structure to hold them in place and once in place they are simply filleted with epoxy to keep them there. Usually these are assemblies that support themselves, ie: bulkheads and floor stringers or seat risers and flats. If they are single pieces you may have to arrange some temporary supports while the glue cures.

Stretching and tearing aren’t the issue once the cloth is imbedded in epoxy, it is simple reinforcement. With “regular weave” half of the fibres run parallel to the joint and don’t help at all with bi-axial you can get all the fibres crossing the joint.

I’ll PM you my email address and we can get further into this when I get back on Tues.

-- Paul M ..............If God wanted us to have fiberglass boats he would have given us fiberglass trees. http://prmdesigns.com/

View Mark Shymanski's profile

Mark Shymanski

5115 posts in 2431 days


#9 posted 07-13-2013 12:48 AM

Thanks Paul. I trust you’ll have a great sail!

-- "Checking for square? What madness is this! The cabinet is square because I will it to be so!" Jeremy Greiner LJ Topic#20953 2011 Feb 2

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