My First Commision - What do I charge?

Don-

This is always a good topic. The problem is that we as woodworkers tend not to value what we do correctly. If you think that the box is worth 1200.00, then you should ask what you think it’s worth. But I would consider the design changes that you plan to make, because these could change the amount of time involved which should change the price. Look at some boxes at the galleries around you, they will tell you what the market can bare. But my guess would be at least 1000.00. Work out how long it is going to take you to make. Then take the cost of materials out of your asking price and then figure out what you are making an hour. I would say that a maker of your skills should be getting at least 40-50 dollars an hour. I hope this helps mate.

-- Kaleo , http://www.kalafinefurniture.com

Kaleo, thanks for your comment and complement.

The points you raise are all good commercial considerations. However, this is not a business for me. So my costs, and the time it takes to make it are somewhat irrelevant.

My main concern is the perceived fairness of the price. This relates to your point “what the market can bear”. I want to place a value on the box that honors my work and represents fair value to my friend.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

You shouldn’t feel bad with any arrangement of charging $50/hour plus the cost of materials. This is how I handled a commission for a friend recently to build a zebrawood coffee table. Her response was to have me put a cap on the hours for that rate, and design it accordingly. We agreed on 16 hours, which turned out to be 18.25, so I donated 2.25 to the friendship. I also donated the trip to the lumberyard and the expertise to choose the material efficiently, so that there was less than .25 board feet left over from her $225 investment in zebrawood.

Or, if your friend is interested, why not barter the value?

Don,
Unless you just enjoy woodworking and money is not an issue, charge what would be a fair market value for your work. Otherwise you will be working for nothing or at least not what you’re worth, and that will detract from the “fun factor” of doing the job. I have always hated it when I under bid a job, and realized I had short changed myself.

If your friend really wants the box and can afford those kind of luxuries, don’t worry about how much you charge her. Friends should not expect us to give our talents for free or for substantially less than what it’s worth. Besides some people who like expensive things actually like to pay large amounts of money for them, so they can brag about it later.

Even the Bible has something to say on this issue: ”...the laborer is worthy of his hire.” Luke 10:7).

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

Don, I always shy away from selling my work because, to be honest, I feel it is worth more than anyone would pay for it. The cherry gavel and block I made was donated. The recipient of the gavel was very pleased with it. My boss asked me if I sell my work and I told him that I hadn’t had anyone wanting to buy it, that I knew of. The point is this…What do you think would be a fair price for it? I would say, $150.00, but I know most people would think…it isn’t that much wood, why so high? I believe that my skills are worth something, as are yours and the design was mine, too. But then again…what is it worth and what would be considered fair? It took me about 2 to 3 hours to turn and assemble and another week of putting on finish, letting it dry, sanding and reapplying more finish.

If she is a real friend, she will know what your talents and time is worth. I believe the one you need to be fairest to is yourself, because if you are not, you will be devaluing your work from here on out. Anyone else wanting a beautiful box of yours will expect to pay no more than she did.

I wish you the best in your endeavor to please your friend and yourself.

-- Jesus is Lord!

Hi Don;

You are correct in saying you are this is not a business for you. But, I feel your mistaken in thinking your time and costs aren’t relevent, or somehow less important.

1. Your work is EQUALL to that of many professionals, myself included.

2. You have a certain amount of hours to spend on this earth, so they are all important.

3. Regarding perceived value, that is, and can only be answered by the buyer. You have no control over that.

With those three statements in mind, I would explain the delemia to the buyer. Point out that you don’t want to cheat either them or yourself. Tell the person requesting the item how much time it takes to create something like this. Explain that this is not production work, it is highly customized.

Then ask the client, how much they would like to pay for it, based on your time and materials.

You will quickly learn if this is a person YOU want to deal with, based on their perception of your value.

It they feel you should create something for them at a low price, their respect for your time is lacking, and personally, I wouldn’t do it.

I have no problem telling a client that I’m not interested in a project if the vibes aren’t right, or the respect level I demand is missing, or they under value my time left here.

Hope this helps Don, as this is something I deal with everyday.

Lee

-- by Lee A. Jesberger http://www.prowoodworkingtips.com http://www.ezee-feed.com

what about asking her what she expects to pay and say that you will create a box accordingly.
Since she’s a friend, she should be open to hearing your concern about wanting to be fair to her but also to yourself and your skill level… tell her that you don’t want to ruin a friendship over this so clarify any misconceptions and surprises before you start.

yah.. business with a friend.. tricky business.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

If she is your friend give it to her.

If she is not, charge $1200.00.

p,s, you are lucky in life if you make 3 true friends.

Bob

-- A mind, like a home, is furnished by its owner

Well, there you have it – you’ve collectively summed up my anxiety in the these comments.

I do value my time. I think my boxes are well made artistic creations that require the skills that I’ve honed over the years.

I’m not interested in being reduced to making something to a price point. That runs against my creative/artistic inclination.

When I’ve attempted to make comparisons with similar boxes, I see junk selling for more and sometimes, well made boxes selling for less – obviously I’m not the only one having difficulty putting a reasonable price on their work.

But then Bob comes along and sums up the dilemma – “if she’s your friend – give it to her, if she’s not charge her $1200.”

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

Decisions, decisions…

Tough dilemma you have Don. I agree with most of the comments above. I think you should charge the stated minimum amount of $50+materials and then, if you feel like -and only if- you can shave some of these costs as a gift to your friendship.

I know that you don’t intend to make money on this or wiew it as a business but in one of the earlier ‘Woodtalk Online” podcasts Marc & Matt discuss this very same topic. Perhaps it could be useful to listen to it again.

To me, the dangers you face are that she would be so pleased with the end result that:

a) It could lead to more orders. What would be yuour position then? You can’t walk on this fine line forever without compromising the friendship.

b) Some of her friends will see the box at the next BBQ she holds and you could be asked to do more commisions. If she says that you charged her next to nothing you’d be putting yourself in a position where you underate your time and can’t ask a fair price and/or shall decline to to the job. This is no good.

Even if you see this as a hobby. What wold be nicer than one of her friends asking you to do a piece with complete freedom of design and not having to worry about paying for it?

In any event, fix an end price or a capped maximum before even buying the wood. Remember: your friendship is at stake and nothing is more valuable than that.

-- Jojo, shopless in Kyoto · http://twitter.com/kagushokunin

I had a buddy ask me to make one of my alder sofa table for a freind of his. Sure I say $150.00…You’ve got to be kidding, he said. He felt cheated and I was a bit offended…go figure.

-- http://www.woodsongsfurniture.com

A worker is worthy his hire… Jesus said so. Build it for her, and let her determine the price. You expect nothing and when you get more than that you’ve all been blessed.

When you let them determine the price it says a lot

-- http://ye-olde-cabinet-shoppe.com/

Bob has it…I don’t sell to friends or family. If I’m asked to make something by a friend I look to see if it can fit in my schedule. If I can make the time then it happens…..when it happens….... It may be 6 months but hey…its free.
The slippery slope comes when the person is less than a friend. Someone you know well, but to whom you feel uncomfortable giving the price you feel its worth. Then like Dennis says…they feel cheated and you feel offended.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

Don
First, congradulations on your first comissioned piece. But I think you’ve gotten yourself in a bit of a pickle. Kinda like selling your old car to a friend, do you want her to remain a friend? Your work is certainly quality work and unique to each piece. I would not leave the price up to her, most people have no idea what an item like this is worth. They see wooden boxes from Taiwan in Walmart for < $20 and base their idea of fair price by this, not their fault (they know not what they do). Most of us are in this for the pure enjoyment, but shops/tools aren’t cheap and your skill and expertise certainly took time to develop and the piece looks to involve many hours work. Whatever the price, it should be agreed on first, or at least some range, that way each knows what is expected and there are no surprises. Even with this though the friendship might still take a beating.

-- DocK, WV

Oh me – oh my!

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

Never thought such a small box could create such big problems.

-- DocK, WV

Don,

Here is another quote from the Good Book:

”...every man is a friend to him that giveth gifts.” Proverbs 19:6

If you start making these boxes for all of your “friends,” you’re going to have a lot of “friends” and alot of buisness.

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

Good point, Tom.

Actually, making boxes without charge for family and friends has kept me going for about five years. I thought I had about satisfied that demand, but now I have a different level of friend starting to ask me for boxes. (This lady falls into that category – I would call her a friend, but we know each other only casually.)

So, if I continue with my “no charge” policy and satisfy this level of friends, what next? Occasional acquaintances? Where do I draw the line? (Actually, my wife has been asking me this question for some time.)

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

Don,

I think that unless you had some ball park agreement out in the open at the outset you may be in difficult waters.

If this lady is more of a casual acquaintance then I would worry less about her reaction than if she were more of a close friend.

Just set a price that you feel is fair and justified and stick with it.

As to where to draw the line between “no charge” and paid work, I think you have arrived at that line.

I would approach future work this way. If you offer, or decide, to make something as a gift then those items should be done at no charge.

If you are approached then the person asking should fully expect to pay for your work.

Just give them a price up front to eliminate any issues on the back side.

Beautiful work by the way.

Aubrey

-- Jesus was a Jewish carpenter.

Don,
I think that, Bob, answered your question on where to draw the line:

”p,s, you are lucky in life if you make 3 true friends.” - Bob

Those are the kind of friends you might want to do “free” or discounted work for, but certainly not casual aquaintances.

Listen to your wife and don’t allow people to exploit your kindness. There is nothing wrong with being compensated fairly for your excellent work.

”She said that she wasn’t worried about the cost, she just wanted one of my boxes” – your friend

That being the case, I would charge her what the box is worth. There are people like that who are not afraid of paying big money for something they really want.

My son is a very gifted concert pianist. He played at a Christmas party where some wealthy people were gathered. A woman came up to him and told him that she wanted him to give her son piano lessons, and that she would pay whatever he charged. Well, my son charged her a lot of money, and she had no problem with it, because she wanted what she wanted, and she had to means to have whatever she wanted.

So if this friend really wants one of your boxes, she won’t mind paying you a fair price for it.

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

OK, I think that we have teased this one out long enough. All of the issues that I have struggled with have come out in the various comments.

I do very much appreciate all of your input – you are a great community of LumberJocks, and although we’ve never met in person and are unlikely to in this kingdom, I count most of you more than just casual acquaintances (but don’t expect me to make a box for you. LOL).

My friend has agreed that $300 is a fair and reasonable price. I just received an email from her where she asks for some extras and has asked for a price – yikes.

Perhaps you can help here – she wants one of those trays that open up when you open the hinged lid, i.e. the tray is attached to the lid in a way that it follows the lid as its opened, presenting the tray half way out of the box.

Is there hardware available for this? Have any of you seen this design in non-factory made box?

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

The difference between doing it for friends is that they have probably already given you, or will some day give you, something of equal or greater value, without any regard as to its worth…...sometimes its just their friendship.

An acquaintance gets charged full price. Whatever value you set on it.

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

Hello Don

With comission work I always ask upfront what the budget is for the project. It is a screening process.

Try looking for Lee Valley tools on the web for the box parts. They carry a good selection.

Regards
Dan

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

Why don’t you just veneer a tackle box – that should do it! Hope the humor isn’t insulting – I really admire your work!

Could stays be used for this function somehow?

Also, how long do you think that it will realistically take you to build the box?

-- Dorje (pronounced "door-jay"), Seattle, WA

That’s a hoot, Dorje! Made me laugh out loud.

I looked at Lee Valley’s site as Dan suggested, but I wasn’t too hopeful as I am fairly familiar with what Lee Valley offers – I don’t think they have such an item.

I found this item here on Jeff Greef’s site.

And I located this hardware on the Rockler site.
I am inclined to make the tray mechanism similar to the above.

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

I think making the mechanism is the ticket!

Maybe you could blog the making of this box?

-- Dorje (pronounced "door-jay"), Seattle, WA

$300…. tell her that the special deal is just for her and that she has to tell people that she paid $1200 for it :)

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

www.guild.com is good place to research pricing. nice website too.

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

Well, Don, you sure stirred something up. I know you are pretty settled on this but I’m going to add a couple things. I give special gifts for Christmas and birthdays or to someone who has been especially helpful. In other words, I give gifts of my own making where I would normaly buy a gift. However with me , this is a business. I’ve seen your work and you are as good as most so-called pros. I also do art work and many years ago a guy came into my shop and asked me about doing a drawing. He wasn’t some one I considered to be a very close friend. I looked over what he wanted and told him how much I would do it for. He said “I thought we were friends!!” My imediate reaction was, “If we’re friends why do you want to cheat me.” Unless you are filthy rich, this game takes money, lots of it, for machinery, material and electricity. This is the formula I’ve used in all my shops over the years. I don’t let it out but will detail it here for the group. I think Lee probably uses a similar formula. I figure the actual material, all of it, that includes nails, glue, finish etc. When I have that cost I then add 33% to cover waste. I then make an educated guess as to my time and that does include the time I have to spend with the client to figure the project out and the time going to get material, at the present that is $45/hour shop time. That seems pretty cheap when I consider that I am being charged between $56 and $60/hour for anything I get done. If I had one employee, the cost would have to go up. I keep track of the time in case I get to build a similar project in the future. I then add profit. Yes, to some, that is a dirty word but if you are not rich and wish to be doing the same work next year you’d better add it in. Any thing from 20-40%. depending on many things. Usually the bigger the project the lower the profit. If the client agrees, that is the price.PERIOD. Believe me I’ve taken a bath once in a while and asked the customer not to tell anyone how much they paid. Usually though, I’ve been surprised how close my bids are to builders with much more sophisticated systems or to the price of furniture found in stores. Please don’t feel that you have to GIVE you work away. You are much better than that.

-- Thos. Angle

Hey, Don. I really like your boxes. Will you be my friend? ;^D

-- Tom, Surfside Beach, SC - Romans 8:28

Don – I have been asked by some to make a vanity or a sofa table, I feel the same anxiety you do. Not sure how much to charge for my own work, my day job is estimating retail of mobile command centers, mobile vet clinics, still doesn’t make it any easier for estimating a for now hobby.

I’ll test the waters once in a while by showing items that I making as a gifts to some that I work with. One lady is kind of a high society type. She is usually the one that will ask how much to have one for her. The response falls into either a price from me or a question of what she would pay. Niether of which seem to match nor be close enough to make it work. So for now I contently make a few for gifts for mostly family and a very small group of friends.

Also Don – I am sure that when you are done with you occasional friends catagory, Your fellow LJ’s Friends would like to start receiving our free beautiful boxes. Please let me know when mine is done. LOL

Good luck and keep posting projects.

Thanks,

-- Joel Tille

I like that hinged box you made for the Summer Awards – you can send that to California..hahaha

Actually, since you already have a price, then you need to design your box. How can you make it look like an expensive box, without being an expensive box? I think if you make the box more plain, and add that tray like the picture you showed, that would be a nice set. Of course, it would be dovetailed and some of that great Aussie wood – something reddish perhaps?

-- Bill, Turlock California, http://www.brookswoodworks.com

a great discussion for all woodworkers! I think we’ve gone far beyond Don’s question (as I think he has probably already made his decisions) but the ideas will definitely help others in the future.

Bill, you gave me another idea that I might use (if I was at the stage of making quality art)... I’d ask if they wanted the $200 version or the $1200 version… that should start an eye-opening conversation and giving them some options.

-- ~ Debbie, Canada (http://www.execulink.com/~yohan)

So much of what gets charged for a anything is a question of perception. Why do people pay $500 for a haircut?

-- Bob, Carver Massachusetts, Sawdust Maker http://www.capecodbaychallenge.org

That’s what I call a bad hair day.

-- DocK, WV

300 bucks sounds like good motivation …

-- work from your heart and your spirit will live forever

Don, Welcome to the world I live in….I can truely say that I do not support my family with my Woodworking, but members of my family have done so in the past. Right now my goal is to develop my shop to the point when I do retire from my day job (or get downsized again) I can pick up and move over to doing this full time. But in the mean time, I am bombarded with requests from friends and family for work. I have a feeling that they are being encouraged by my wife. I don’t blame her but some of their pricing expectations are far below the true cost it would take to build the peice. The last case was my father in law. He now wants a cabinet for his printer that will match the rest of his furniture. Not a real big deal but he wants it done on the cheap. My wife wants me to do it for just the cost of the wood, she forgot the cost of the finish and other shop material that would be used such as glue, screws, rags etc…

Back to your problem…She seems to have opend the door for more money….she want to make it more complicated with the lifting tray. I could tell by your post that she is asking for something that is outside what is a normal “Box by Don” item. I would use this opportunity to tell her that she is asking for something that you normally don’t do and as a result, it will cost quite a bit more. You will have to make another box to fit inside the box and add the mechinism to move that box with the lid. I would double the amount at a minium. She is already getting a great box at 75% off what we would charge for it.

I’m sure that the good Lord will make it work out in the end. Just be sure to ask him what you should do. You may be suprised at the answer you get.

BTW…After seeing all the great boxes on the latest challenge, I may have to give up my love of tables for this growing love of boxes.

-- Greg - Charles Town, WV

Greg, how could you not just love small wooden boxes? LOL

-- CanuckDon "I just love small wooden boxes!" http://www.hilsbiblechurch.org/

Yikes, pricing is a can of worms. Another unstated point, if you deeply discount your time, what does that do to the market for other purveyors of custom woodwork? This is sort of what has happened with the exampled Wal-Mart box, but if custom woodworkers way undercut the market value for custom work they act as “scabs” if you will. That is they dilute the credibility of other workers in the same field. If you are inclined to give a deal, I like the comments above about keeping that price as a secret between one another.

The barter deal seems attractive to me, often. Seems like this box could be had for the price of one Festool Domino and systainer. Mwahahahah!

-- "Bordnerizing" perfectly good lumber for over a decade.

Don,

It doesn’t look like you need another opinion to throw onto the wood pile but here it is anyway.

I agree with those who say charging a friend is a bit different than other people. The problem is, if other people see it in their home and ask what they paid for it you risk the “friend” price getting out. When a friend asks me for something I first ask them what their budget is, if it’s not much I just try to cover my material cost and most of my time. I tell them what it normally costs and If I am very busy, I explain to them that the other work comes first. Then I tell them, please don’t tell anyone else what you paid for it and I explain why.

Art, including woodworking, is very subjective and you really never know when you move from the production guy to the guy everyone wants to collect. I am a BIG advocate of not giving things away, unless of course, someone higher than all of us tells us to. As someone who doesn’t make a living doing this, please take into consideration the guys who are out there that do. Each time a hobbiest gives away something it takes the opportunity for the professional to earn his wage. Granted, your friend wants “your” work not some other professional but I think it should always be a consideration.

pretty interesting topic if you ask me…good luck.

-- Steffen