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A complaint: one member's opinion.

9K views 39 replies 30 participants last post by  bubinga 
#1 ·
A complaint: one member's opinion.

Is it just me, or does anyone else here feel irked about the string of users here lately who log on, post a bunch of "projects" that are nothing but ads for their own often overpriced plan web sites, then log off without taking any real part in our community?

This commercial abuse of our hosts here makes me see red. These folks have zero interest in our community other than as a source of income.

The newest of these is one "andydachippy", who joined Friday and promptly posted a dozen and a half "projects", each an ad for one of his overpriced plans on his commercial web site within his first few hours here.

His was not the only such "member" I've noticed in the last few days, just the latest and most blatant.

I for one will, for decency's sake if for no other, will never spend penny one with any of these abusers. I advise all my fellow LJs to do likewise.

Please understand, I am not advising such treatment for honest members of our community who do take part in our community and contribute to the richness of the LJ experience, just those whose sole interest in us is our wallets.

The soapbox is now vacant.
 
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#2 ·
I don't quite get the strategy of selling plans to seasoned woodworkers where a photograph or two suffices as "plans" in the first place. Maybe it's just spammers buying from other spammers and justice really is served.
 
#4 ·
I agree with miles125 any half competent woody would only need a couple of photos to be able to come up with their own take on the project. Never bought plans and never will ,as they say a picture is worth a 1000 words [or a set of plans]
 
#6 ·
And I'm with mafe.

I come to this site for inspiration and to share knowledge. I currently take in so much more than I give out that I assume that I'll be pulling close to even with my last breath. I assume many of us feel that way.

I'm all for entrepreneurship, and wish everyone the best of luck when it comes to being one's own boss. While it might be nice if they become a part of the community, they shouldn't really have that big of an effect over this large group of people who find solace, strength, and a sense of community.

So. The ones who want to actually contribute, will. The others? They're here. They're gone. Move on.
 
#7 ·
So i say to big tiny what is wrong with sharing my work and ideas most of my work takes a lot of planning and time is taken to maticulously draw these projects part for part my two books are reasonably priced check them out
 
#10 ·
andy

glad you have written some books
i hope they sell

we are working to be family here
mostly come 'home'
to relax
and enjoy each others work
and friendships

we just give each other
everything we got

we sell our work
out in the streets
if we can

drop the load
and relax
with us
 
#11 ·
Well, I generally agree with you Tiny. But I think most folks here will see through mere 'advertisers' and not interact with them.

OK, now here's where I'll step in it. Take a look at Tommy Mac. He's not posted here in over 3 months, and most of what he posts is related to his own interests. And from what I've seen, his posts to members projects/blogs are more of 'good job' rather than offering real solutions. The difference seems to be the good ole boys club. Tommy is a member, others are not. Why is he a member? His sole purpose here seems to be self serving. Does it detract from LJ, I doubt it. These members have just as much right to post within the guidelines as anyone else. It is up to other members to choose to participate with them or not.

And how about Steve? His posts/videos may be construed to lure folks to his mere mortals site. Is that all bad? One of the differences here is that Steve gives freely to this community through his videos. He truely offers something for his readers/watchers. Is it so bad that he 'lures' folks to his website? I think not.

Others might be considered similar: Scrollgirl, Marc S., gww. Again, I think members can weed through the chaff. I don't think we have too much considering the member base.

Just my 2c worth.
 
#12 ·
I am not here to promote or sell plans i found this site through a friend and i am happy to contribute, i am a skilled woodworker and draughts man and all i ever set out to do do is share my work and expetiences with others who have the same interest.. I am sorry if i have started off on the wrong foot and do appologise, I will be happy to share some of my work of which there are no plans or selling. ps take a look at the side adds on this site
 
#13 ·
I guess ads are fine (if they are paid advertisements for the benefit of the website owners) and we all have the choice of viewing or ignoring them. I personally choose to ignore them also and never use plans to build a project…other than my hand drawn sketches.
I do not think the postings are an appropriate place for ads or self promotion. Keep paid ads outside of the postings so they can be easily ignored for those of us not interested in them or easily viewed by those that might benefit from them.
I did open a free Intuit credit card merchant account from a paid ad in Lumberjocks…so they do have their place.
 
#14 ·
The way this site is set up, anyone can post as many photos of products as they like and with whatever information… be it for sales or whatever.

If you are reading this, Andy, you will see that most people that post projects also tell what wood they used, some techniques or tools, who they made it for, etc. When you posted your projects you just put a name for it, and then an ad for your plans. That is why some people here find it not to be contributing as part of the general community we have established here.
 
#15 ·
I agree that ads have their place, but not disguised as a member's projects, right? They are using the generousity of the web site owners to promote their own commercial enterprises without payment.

There's a word for using something for commercial purposes without paying for it.

Theft.
 
#16 ·
Buy id a member do a project and then hake some plans he wants to sell is that a problem?
He share the idea, and then if you want you can copy otherwise you can buy the plan.
I cant see the problem, it must be fair that he can make a buck on those who will rather buy the plan then to make their own.
Ofcourse it is different if company produce handplanes and post them there.
Hmmmm
Best thoughts,
Mads
 
#17 ·
Tiny

I wouldn't be too concerned. I think more than half the people on this site can figure out the projects just by the pictures. I believe Andy was truly just sharing because it wouldn't take a huge effort for a lot of people here to replicate his projects. I have no doubt that a lot of people will find inspiration in them because's Andy's projects are nice, easy ones.

best
 
#18 ·
I believe that there is nothing wrong with promoting your business on here. If memory serves me correctly, when I signed up here at Lumberjocks there was a place to put a website address. People post all kinds of things, projects, workshops and "classes" and if you want to promote it with a link go right ahead. The thing about a link on a post, you have to click it, to read it.
 
#19 ·
I approve of his posting. It is within the management's guidelines. They appear to be his designs and not those "60,000 plans on CD" rip-offs. An unobtrusive link to his website in his signature is not blatant advertising. Having a spectrum of professionals and amateurs and everything in between is one of the attractions of this site.

I won't personally be buying any of his plans. I can draft up anything I would want to build myself but some people prefer working from plans because they would rather be building than designing. If I were going to buy from anyone, I would prefer buying form someone who contributes to the site. Posting images of his designs in the projects is a good start. His civil responses are another good sign.
 
#20 ·
I don't buy or sell anything from any of the sites I am one.I think it can lead to unpleasentness if someone buys aproduct and is displeased with it,I also never use plans I usually have enough common sense to work out the design myself and adjust sizes to suit my situation.One of the members was advertising his new book I simply said No thanks and was made to feel like the devil incarnate.LOL Alistair
 
#21 ·
Many of the projects I've built over the years for my self and for paying customers came from a simple photograph. Many of my current clients find a picture of a piece and want something close to it with a lot of modifications to suit their needs. As long as I don't directly duplicate (plagiarize) anothers' work I will work with the client to fulfill their dreams. I will not take someone else's work and duplicate it for the purpose of selling it. I have taken plans from magazines and books and built those projects for me and my family but have never sold anything made in this fashion.

So to reinforce many other comments made by other LJ's, most experienced woodworkers don't need another persons plans to come up with a design and build it themselves.
 
#22 ·
I posted a comment on, Model 1942-1945 US Army jeep, from andydachippy

My post--I made one similar to that, a long time ago from ,plan in Wood Magazine
I like the tools

Very quickly, the next post was from, andydachippy

Plans for the jeep and other toys and models can be found in my recently published book Making toys and models in the home workshop http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/making-toys-and-models-in-the-home-workshop/15152315?productTrackingContext=author_spotlight_89520161_

Not a thanks for the comment,or any thing , just a link to sell a book ,and this did not set well with me.
Introducing the book should have been done in a differant way.
Good luck with the book.
 
#23 ·
Is there a place on LumberJocks for those folks who want to run a "garage business" to place their ads w/o hiding them as a project? I tend to see both sides. But I lean more to Big Tiny's view.

I agree w/ Big Tiny that the project area should be for sharing your projects and to inspire others.

But to turn a profit while admirable, should be at the customers instigation not the person trying to turn a profit by hiding it as a project. That's just tacky.

If I want someone to design/draw/build me a king sized headboard, I as the customer should start by searching said "small business" area (separate from the projects area), to hunt down someone who posted an ad for said service. Not the other way around.

Maybe LJ could charge a small fee to list ads in a separate area for 6 months to a year at a time to advertize. Even virtual real estate space cost someone money. Let L/J recoup some of it's costs.

In any event the projects area isn't a good forum to sell stuff/advertise.

-DW
 
#24 ·
I imagine a lot of people use this as a marketing tool-the same as facebook, forums, etc. Whether or not they're selling something, I enjoy seeing projects-provided they're at least somewhat well written and photos are included.

Besides.. plans never seem to work out for me. Since I'm 6'8, I have little use for chair/table/desk/most anything plans that don't accommodate my knees!
 
#25 ·
I agree 100% with your feelings on this. This guy was not even commenting to the other LJ members that posted to his thread, just posting a comment for people that did a search on the web and found his thread. This is like the guy that signed up and posted a link on my guinea pig cage project and another one that was posted on here, that linked to a website of his that sold cages. He apparently did a search and anything that he found on his search, he linked to his site. He signed up just to link the two projects here to his site.http://lumberjocks.com/philipbonde
I feel a little stupid now for commenting on one of andydachippy's posts earlier. Yeah, I guess I helped him promote his business. I wouldn't mind doing that for someone who is a regular contributing member of this site, but for this guy; hell no!
 
#26 ·
Sadly it seems any site that goes beyond a certain size and popularity starts transforming from a family like community into a very different kind of thing. I've seen it happen with quite a few art-forums and such. It can go a more commercial route, or just get flooded with people that don't "get" what it is about and in the end the members that made the place worthwhile start disappearing and the place ends up an emtpy shell with just the "famous" name left.

I certainly don't mean to be all doom and gloom and ring the deathknell for lumberjocks, but it is one of the reasons why I usually prefer putting content (also) on my own site rather than an "external" one only. Right now I don't have a site for my woodworking stuff, but I do plan to create it soon. In which case I would probably use a few places to direct traffic to it. There are other members who do it as well and I don't see an issue with it in general. The problem however is when it comes off as being the sole purpose and those individuals do not give anything back and just take and use and might be rude when called out for it.

In the end it is all about how it is done and not just how you present your projects, but much more about how you present yourself. A bad first impression is hard to get rid of and no matter how impressive your projects might be, if you're arrogant or rude (or just appear to be), you have to be greater than great for people to look over that.

One of the reasons for the big response to how andydachippy started off here is probably due to what his "sale targets" are. He's not posting finished projects he's trying to sell to regular people, but offering plans for woodworkers. Something that certain woodworkers would already see as an insult in itself I guess; working from a plan, even worse, one you pay for.

I do have to say thanks to BigTiny for this posting though. As it could easily backfire and brand him as complainer in the eyes of many people who don't quite understand his feeling about this. Personally I think that it's good to mention this out in the open and talk about it from both sides. It should give people a better idea of how people react and what they expect in terms of etiquette here. Which is at least as important as posting guidelines established by the owners.
 
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